| Revision as of 08:28, 27 December 2012 editJapinderum (talk | contribs)2,149 edits →Requested move: what's those CI/Niue comments here???← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 08:26, 10 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,214 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] | ||
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| ==Edit extended-protected== | |||
| == Solution to title == | |||
| {{edit extended-protected|answered=yes}} | |||
| === tajikistan === | |||
| http://mfa.tj/files/kitobkhona/tajikistan_diplomacy_the_past_and_the_present_1/tajikistan_diplomacy_the_past_and_the_present_en.pdf page 166 -COUNTRIES, THAT ESTABLISHED DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THE REPUBLIC OF TAJIKISTAN 06.03.1992 Palestine - please add--] (]) 09:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| === Kyrgyz Republic === | |||
| http://www.mfa.gov.kg/contents/view/id/98 12/9/1995 Palestine please add--] (]) 10:00, 21 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| === Norway === | |||
| Since the last move request was closed with no consensus and the current title fails to effectively describe the topic, what are the alternatives to a page move? | |||
| * In most countries, Palestinian delegations are accredited to "Palestine" (<span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, check the article for more); | |||
| * In the United Nations system, the seat of the Palestinian representation is named "Palestine", including in the <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, <span class="plainlinks"></span>, the <span class="plainlinks"></span> and the <span class="plainlinks"></span>; | |||
| * This article is about the foreign relations of other entities unrelated to the PNA (it has no status within most inter-governmental organisations listed, no official bilateral relations with many states listed, and much of the history is unrelated). '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 20:09, 1 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
| https://www.norway.no/en/palestine/norway-palestine/bilateral-relations/ Diplomatic relations between Norway and the Palestinian Authority was established in 1995. --] (]) 14:04, 22 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Iceland == | |||
| === Israel === | |||
| Iceland has recognized Palestine as a state - what needs to be updated here? –] (] ⋅ ]) 07:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| :You did everything that's required. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 13:08, 30 December 2011 (UTC) | |||
| Israel is listed under the European section. This is incorrect. --] (]) 21:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == 2012 UNGA resolution == | |||
| === Botswana === | |||
| Effectively, the UN observer status was transferred from the non-state entity PLO to the State of Palestine, but since the potential source to confirm that - http://www.un.org/en/members/nonmembers.shtml - is not yet updated (as of 30-Nov-2012 it still shows PLO/Palestine as non-state observer entity and does not show the observer State of Palestine) - I suggest we wait until that point before changing the table. There is still the ''very slim'' possibility that both PLO and State of Palestine will be UN observers or that some different arrangement will be established such as "PLO-EC, in its capacity of provisional government of the future state", etc. (I don't think so, but it's better to have a confirmation). ] (]) 11:03, 30 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| http://apanews.net/en/pays/botswana/news/botswana-palestine-establish-ties-at-ambassadorial-level Botswana and Palestine have established formal and full diplomatic relations at ambassadorial level, a statement from the government in Gaborone confirmed on Friday. Mar 10, 2017--] (]) 14:08, 22 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| Also, we should await sources signifying the changes of status, if any, at other organizations (such as specialized agencies, etc.) - not to rewrite everything without backing from a source. ] (]) 13:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == |
=== Republic of Belarus === | ||
| https://naviny.by/rubrics/politic/2003/02/22/ic_articles_112_144513 On 4 February,2003/ the first extraordinary and plenipotentiary Ambassador of Palestine in the Republic of Belarus, Muntser Fouad Abu Zeid, presented his credentials to the President of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko. | |||
| the opening paragraph of this article is utterly incorrect: "The foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) are conducted by the PLO which maintains a network of offices in foreign countries.". The PLO is not subordninate to the PNA, it is the exact opposite relationship. The PNA is a structure launched by PLO in the Oslo framework for managing the local governance in parts of the Palestinian territories. PLO always maintained direct responsibility for foreign relations, from 1988 onwards as the leading entity of the State of Palestine. --] (]) 15:01, 30 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :I agree with you that the PLO is the entity that established and represents abroad the PNA and the PLO is the entity whose Executive Council is the government of the State of Palestine, thus a move to ] is warranted. There are such proposals discussed before, but unfortunately they didn't succeed. The previous discussions are quite long and I unless there is some new information (which the recent resolution isn't since it doesn't change anything in the structures conducting foreign relations) I don't think it's good to open that pandora box again. ] (]) 07:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Considering the fact that 100+ states recognize the State of Palestine and that the State of Palestine has been admitted (by overwhelming majority in UNGA vote) as non-member observer state at the United Nations, ] might be more apt. We usually brand these articles by the name of the state, not the political entity at its top. --] (]) 09:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::This was discussed at lenght before. State of Palestine is different entity from the PNA. They are not related. The only link between them is that both are created by the PLO (who also represents both abroad). That's why if we are going to stick to the combined article it should be at "Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization". Of course we can have separate articles for PLO, the State of Palestine, and PNA. But using "Foreign relations of Palestine" in the title is ambiguous - confusing and unclear about which entity it is. In addition we have also Hamas claiming to represent the Palestinian people. The usual case is of one territory, one state, one government - all under the same name. But the case here is not the usual one since we have 3-4 separate political entities, most of them sharing the same goals and working together, but nevertheless they have their own separate institutions, decision making rules, etc. | |||
| :::UNGA observer status vote (that was not supported by 19 of the recognizers) does not change anything in that configuration, or the article titles. The 120+ states that recognize are also since long time ago, e.g. including during the time of the multiple previous move discussions. Nothing warrants re-opening these tedious discussion now. ] (]) 06:21, 2 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Should be moved to ]. It doesn't matter if it's ambiguous -- you argued this in all the previous discussions but it's a moot point. We don't have separate articles for each entity, ''this'' is the combined article. So "Palestine" is the best name, since it's used by all of them. Put a move request in, Soman. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 10:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree with name ] too. ] (]) 15:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The correct title is ] - the PLO represents abroad all three entities - itself, the State of Palestine and the PNA. This is explained in the archives. Does ] include Hamas or not? ] (]) 09:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| before this no any information about diplomatic relations--] (]) 14:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| == Requested move == | |||
| :] '''Not done for now:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> {{rto| Murza-Zade}} Please what should be added and how; not just collection of links. –] (]) 15:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC) | |||
| {{Requested move/dated|Foreign relations of Palestine}} | |||
| == Remove weasel word from article == | |||
| ] → {{no redirect|Foreign relations of Palestine}} – As per the discussion above. PLO has been represented as Palestine in several international fora for decades, and since 1988 as State of Palestine. With the UNGA vote Palestine, and not PNA, is represented in the United Nations. ] (]) 09:50, 8 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| The introduction mentions the “so-called Palestine 194 Campaign. This is an inappropriate phrase for Misplaced Pages, conveying disagreement with the campaign by insinuating that the movement should not be called as such. At best, the inclusion of “so-called” is nonsensical, at worst it is an impotent attempt at attacking the campaign. Either way, the phrase does not belong. ] (]) 19:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' Whether a country declares its relations are with the PNA, the SoP, or the PLO, it's the same Palestinian administration handling the relations. ] (]) 11:12, 8 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' The proposed title is ambiguous and unclear whose relations it refers to - contrary to WP:TITLE. The correct title is ] - the PLO represents abroad all three entities - itself, the State of Palestine and the PNA. This is explained and sourced in the archives - there were such move proposals and there were long discussions about that. Nothing has changed recently, so I don't see a reason to re-open this tedious debate. Does "Foreign relations of Palestine" include Hamas foreign relations? ] (]) 10:01, 9 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| **'''Comment''' the "foreign relations" (liaisons with international bodies and foreign and Arab agencies) of the Hamas cabinet in Gaza is coordinated through the PNA in Ramallah. It is a tricky relationship, and there have been disagreements on whether Hamas has stepped over the line in making direct talks with foreign and Arab countries. Most notably, Fatah sharply criticized Haniye after his visit to Egypt after Morsi's election. Hamas replied that Haniye had not visited Egypt as head of government, like they have said that visits abroad at international events of Hamas leaders are done as representatives of the party and not the government, stressing that they have not broken the consensus on external relations. These contacts do deserve a chapter in the article, but they are not separate from the foreign relations of Palestine. It is just a bit complex. --] (]) 11:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| **Re: ''"Unclear whose relations"'' -- it's Palestinian relations. Sources rarely bother making pedantic distinctions between branches of administration. The article certainly doesn't and the text combines all of it together. The title should match. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 11:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ***A source for Hamas-PNA official coordination? Is Hamas subordinated to PNA MFA or how is it done? Hamas or PNA agreeing or disagreeing with particular foreign actions of the other side is one thing - having an institutionalized coordination is quite different. And yes, it's unclear. What does "Palestinian relations" mean? Relations of the PNA, of PLO, of the State of Palestine, of Hamas, of whom? ] (]) 11:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*I thought I was clear: It refers to '''all of them, just like the article itself'''. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*That's not obvious from the title, because it's ]. ] (]) 07:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' - even though the State of Palestine is now more relevant than in the past, that doesn't change the fact that Palestinian Authority has had foreign relations. We can simply create another article on the ].] (]) 11:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Correction - there already is an article on ], it is named ]. Since the State of Palestine won some kind of recognition, the international recognition article should be renamed into "foreign relations article".] (]) 14:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::As the primary author of that article, I can tell you that is ''not'' what the page is about. It's a chronology of ], not ]. Two totally different subjects, and most disputed countries have articles for both. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 11:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. As should be clear to anyone who has read it, this article ''combines'' foreign relations of the three capable entities most commonly known as "Palestine". ] dictates that we only be as precise as needed -- ''Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority, Palestine Liberation Organization and the State of Palestine'' is ridiculously unnecessary given that all three of them are commonly referred to as "Palestine". The proposed name is also the name ] used for Palestinian representation in international organisations (including in the United Nations System). '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 11:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| **It's not up to Misplaced Pages editors to "combine" foreign relations of entities that are separate. Exactly because the three entities are COMMONLY referred to as Palestine (e.g. it's ambiguous who it's a reference to) - that's why the article title should NOT BE "Foreign relations of Palestine" - it should be ] - because that's the entity that represents abroad all three of them and that's the entity that has established the other two entities. ] (]) 11:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*You've just contradicted yourself. You say we ''shouldn't'' "combine foreign relations of entities that are separate" and then argue that "all three of them" ''should'' be combined in an article under a different title to the one proposed. Misplaced Pages editors should reflect whatever reliable sources do. Sources don't bother with the obscure distinctions half the time, so neither have we. Regardless of that, the article ''presently'' describes all three, and unless you're going to try <span class="plainlinks"></span>, it'll stay that way. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*"all three of them" excludes the fourth, Hamas - combined should only be those that are have official institutional links between each other. Misplaced Pages should not copy from sources that "don't bother" about details. There are plenty of other websites that fulfill that role. ] (]) 07:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. The existing name is not correct, does not correspond to the content of the article. The proposed name is more correct. ] (]) 15:44, 10 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| **The existing name is not correct, but the proposed name is ambiguous and that's contrary to the core rules of WP:TITLE. The correct title is ] (see above for explanation and see in the articles and in the previous move discussion for sources). ] (]) 11:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*So you agree that the current title is not correct, but you're quite happy to keep it that way because you oppose the only name that could encompass all of the article's current content matter? '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*No. The current title is not correct, but the proposed isn't correct either - I oppose both. And I already explained what's the correct title that encompasses the foreign relations of PLO, State of Palestine and PNA. ] (]) 07:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *Comment - a related move request was recently closed at ]. And again - this discussion here is a repetition of a previous long discussion - and nothing has changed since then in the institutional arrangement of PLO, State of Palestine and PNA foreign relations, so there is no reason to re-open this discussion. ] (]) 11:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*That has no bearing on this request. I opposed that move because in geography "Palestine" can refer to a region. This is the subject of foreign relations, where "Palestine" always refers to the Palestinian government. Apolitical regions don't conduct foreign relations. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*It's a related move request. Of course apolitical regions don't have foreign relations. The problem with the proposed title here is that it's ambiguous "Palestine government" - which one? Hamas government? PNA Cabinet? PLO executive council? We should not bring ambiguities in the titles of the articles. If you want to include all of these in the scope "Foreign relations of Palestinian organizations" is more suitable. If you want to include only the internationally recognized ones then "Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization" is the correct one as explained above. | |||
| ::*Nothing in the institutional setup has changed since the previous discussion. ] (]) 07:44, 13 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*All the articles "Foreign relations of.." are primarily on the relations of States, not Governments. This article is about the relations of Palestine. The PLO's relations are something like the Foreign relations of the French Government or Foreign relations of National Transitional Council. Special article can be created, for example Foreign relations of Hamas. But this article is a summary, it is about the relations of Palestine. ] (]) 08:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Yes, in the common case you have a single set of state, government and territory and only one entity conducting "foreign affairs" under the name utilized for this single set - the government of the state controlling the territory. The case here is different - special, because there are four entities conducting "foreign affairs" (one liberation organization, one state, two local administrations) under the name of a territory, that's under the control/occupation of another state (Israel). PLO represents abroad both the PNA and the State of Palestine. So there should be two articles - one for the PLO foreign relations (that covers also the State of Palestine and PNA) and one for Hamas relations. In the context of foreign relations "Palestine" is '''] term - and that's why it's not suitable for WP:TITLE''' without additional qualifier. ] (]) 09:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*Palestine is the short name for State of Palestine. This article is about the relations of ''that State''. The fact that the term Palestine sometimes means something else, is not a relevant argument against renaming the article. After all, the article could designate the Foreign relations of the State of Palestine, much like International recognition of State of Palestine, to remove these doubts. More entities acting on its behalf is not at all a problem (because here is two governments for Syria, here is not possible to have article Foreign relations of Syria??). On the contrary, precisely because we need to have the article universal name covering everything. In this article and should be relations of all the relevant players (including Hamas). For Hamas is then possible addition article ''also'' to create a separate article. ] (]) 20:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::*] is the short name also for the PLO and the PNA. This article is not about relations of the ], but about all foreign relations conducted by the PLO. ''in order not to duplicate the rest of the comment see my comment with the same date below'' ] (]) 09:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *Comment - What consist of foreign relations? In particular, from the relations with other States. It is a bit absurd that we have articles as Albania-'''Palestine''' relations, China–'''Palestine''' relations etc. (no China–PNA relations or China PLO relations).. but the General article is not named Foreign relations of the '''Palestine'''. The status quo has no logic and is unsustainable. ] (]) 08:46, 14 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Whether other article titles should be changed, and the degree of ambiguity acceptable in those, is a separate issue. But the "main" article title should not be changed into an ambiguous one. ] (]) 09:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Palestine is the short name for the State of Palestine. All articles (bilateral relations, diplomatic missions of/in etc... used this name). Article International recognition use full name of State. No article used the name PNA or the PLO. Foreign relations of Palestine (or of the State of Palestine) is better name for the article. ] (]) 20:26, 15 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*] is the short name also for the PLO and the PNA. This article is not about relations of the ], but about all foreign relations conducted by the PLO (and PLO-EC) - as internationally recognized representative of the ] (including refugees outside of ]), as provisional government in exile of the State of Palestine, as representative abroad for the PNA. The State of Palestine and the PNA are also created by and accountable to the PLO and the PLO's PNC, PCC and PLO-EC. The sources for all of this are in the article(s), e.g. , : ISBN 978-0-19-826837-6 and others. The recognition article is only about SoP, but the relations article is about all PLO activities (covering also SoP and PNA) - if the relations article was restricted to SoP relations only, then most of the "participation in international organizations" and half of the "bilateral relations" tables would've been deleted. <small>for the other articles titles you mention see my previous 09:17, 15 December 2012 comment</small> There are not "more entities acting on behalf of SoP" - there are "more entities that the PLO acts on behalf of", e.g. the SoP and PNA - it's the PLO that acts on their behalf abroad, not the other way around. So, '''the proper title''' for the article is "]". Hamas is a separate organization (from PLO and SoP and from the internationally recognized PNA government - albeit it claims that it's the legitimate PNA government) so a separate article for it is fine (and of course it should be mentioned briefly also here). ] (]) 09:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*If the PLO acts abroad under the name of Palestine, then I see no reason at all, why should the aggregate article could not designate the Foreign relations of Palestine. Especially if actually includes all relations, PLO, PNA, and SoP, and basic information on the relations of Hamas. I still think that Foreign relations of Palestine is the correct name for the article. And it is definitely a better and more accurate, than the name of the existing, which is factually completely incorrect and, therefore, we have to change it. ] (]) 16:46, 16 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*PLO uses the designation "Palestine" in the UN (following resolution 43/177) and for some, but not all of its bilateral relations. But the name of the organization is PLO, not "Palestine". Misplaced Pages does not follow UNGA resolutions - whatever the political advantages somebody gets from those do not dictate article titles. The article title should not be like an WP:EGG link - it should be as clear and explicit as possible. The WP:TITLE problem in "Foreign relations of Palestine" is not that "the entity conducting the relations is not called Palestine" by anybody, but that in the context of foreign relations that name is ] since the same name is utilized also for other entities. I understand that supporters of Palestine want to make it look "upgraded" and "just like any other regular state" in as many places and ways as possible - but as said above - unlike the regular case of "single set of state, government and territory and only one entity conducting "foreign affairs" under the name utilized for this single set - the government of the state controlling the territory" - here the case is unique, not like that - and we should not use article title hiding the facts. | |||
| :::::*The entity conducting the foreign relations is the PLO, thus the title should be ]. I don't see any reason for us to invent something else. And in the article itself it's already explained what does PLO have in common with SoP, PNA, who uses the designation "Palestine", where and why, etc. ] (]) 08:49, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *Comment - the move request also includes incorrect statement: "With the UNGA vote Palestine, and not PNA, is represented in the United Nations." - PNA was '''never''' represented in the UN. Since 1974 the ] is the PLO and nobody else. Since 1988 the designation "Palestine" is utilized for the PLO delegation (just like you use "France" instead of "French republic"). The PLO conducts foreign relations since before 1974, since 1988 the PLO-EC represents also the State of Palestine (established by the PLO's PNC) as its provisional government-in-exile, since 1994 the PLO represents also the unrelated local Oslo accords (signed by PLO, Israel, USA, Russia) administrative entity - the PNA (established by and accountable to the PLO). Nothing in this setup changes with the recent ] that changes the PLO UN delegation into SoP UN delegation (and PNA is not subject of the 2012 resolution). The foreign relations are still conducted by the PLO. ] (]) 09:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Enough about politics. This is Misplaced Pages. We have policies and guidelines that pay no attention to that. Palestine is the ] here, as evinced by the name of its seat in almost all diplomatic organisations. Whether it's ambiguous or not, there is a clear ], since we only have ''one article'' on Palestinian foreign relations. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*It's COMMONNAME, but ] in the context of "foreign relations" - it's '''common for more than one entity'''. Also the '''primary topic are the PLO relations''' (see below). Anyway, WP:TITLE prevents us from using the ambiguous term you prefer - the title has to be specific about whose entity foreign relations the article is. ] (]) 13:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :{{Done}} ] (]) 20:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC) | |||
| '''Summing up:''' So, of the editors who participated, all except one are against the current title. Of those against the current title, all except one support the proposed title, while the other suggests a different one (below). '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Don't twist. There are 2 editors opposing and 3 supporting. One of the supporting also supports the alternative proposal if that one fails. Also, as the proposing sentence shows this repetition of the move request is made now because of the recent UN vote (WP:RECENTISM) - which changes the UN delegation title, but not the institutional setup or who conducts the relations, etc. Ironically see Greyshark09's link - Palestine delegation itself seems to go away from the "Palestine" term and to prefer the more specific and unambiguous "State of Palestine". ] (]) 13:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::No... There are ''<u>five</u>'' editors (not three) who agree the current title is not correct: Me, Jan, Chip, Soman, and yourself (you just said it ). Of those five, only you are against the main proposal. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 13:53, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Summary-current status: | |||
| :::*Voters: 6 | |||
| :::*For the proposed tittle Foreign relations of Palestine: 4 | |||
| :::*Result: 67% consensus for it. ] (]) 14:16, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yep. Although they're not really votes. We've also got to look at each editors' stance on the current title, and there's a clear agreement that the current title is incorrect. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 14:52, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Night w, I stated clearly that I '''OPPOSE''' this proposal for ] WP:EGG title. I don't like the status quo either, but that's a separate issue. And I provided sources showing what's the correct title - see below. ] (]) 07:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| == 140 == | |||
| *Comment: There is a related broader discussion going on at ].—] ] 14:45, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. The current title is incorrect, the PNA does not handle foreign relations, the PLO does. Normally I would be opposed to an article about the Palestinian territories using "Palestine" rather then "Palestinian territories" in it's title, because the ] article is about the geographic region and it wouldn't be consistent with articles such as ] and ], among other reasons, but in this case we can make an exception. I don't think any body's going think thing that we are talking about the foreign relations of the geographic ] region. You could make the argument that "Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization" or "Foreign relations of the Palestinian territories" would be an even better title tough. ] (]) 22:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Emmette, as you said the relations abroad are handled by the PLO and I agree "Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization" is a better title - so, I proposed ]. That is factually correct and avoids the WP:EGG-like situation with the ] "Palestine" in the title that's unclear whether it's a reference to the PLO, SoP, PNA, etc. ] (]) 07:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::* "Palestine" is completely the same as Germany, France or Russia. It is the geographical name of the territory of a political entity bearing its name. Previously Russia was greater (e.g., in the territory of the Russian Empire times), today is much smaller (Russian Federation). Earlier Palestine were larger (in the days of the British Palestine), today is much smaller (a Palestinian State/occupied territories). Change the size of the territory, or the ambiguous status of the political entity does not alter the accuracy and appropriateness of the concept of Palestine. | |||
| ::*In the case of Palestine is unclear its status. but that's no reason to question the use of the name Palestine or Foreign relations of Palestine. Unclear status of Abkhazia also does not prevent the use of names such as Foreign relations of Abkhazia. | |||
| ::*The article shows the relationships of all relevant palestinian actors (PLO, PNA, SoP, Hamas), and the Foreign relations of Palestine is optimal, factually correct name. ] (]) 09:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*Territorial size has nothing to do with the discussion. The status of each of the political entities is tangentially relevant, but what's most important is that it's '''not only one''' political entity (as your comment implies), but there ] - and that's why the title should use the name of the correct one. It's not that "Palestine" should not be used because someone questions SoP sovereignty (e.g. "unclear status" as you say) - it should not be used, because the PLO and PNA are also commonly called "Palestine" - that's why there is ]. | |||
| :::*In Abkhazia you don't have multiple entities such as Abkhazia Liberation Organization, Republic of Abkhazia declared by that organization and a separate "Authority of Abkhazian Civilian Advisors to Russian Military Command in Greater Caucasus" that's not related to the republic, but only to the organization. | |||
| :::* "Palestine" is not the same as Germany, France, etc. those have a single set of state, government and territory and only one entity conducting "foreign affairs" under the name utilized for this single set - the government of the state controlling the territory. The case here is different - special, because there are four entities conducting "foreign affairs" (one liberation organization, one state, two local administrations) under the name of a territory, that's under the control/occupation of another state (Israel). PLO represents abroad both the PNA and the State of Palestine. For sources see 09:02, 17 December 2012 and the articles. So there should be two articles - one for the PLO foreign relations (that covers also the State of Palestine and PNA) and one for Hamas relations. In the context of foreign relations "Palestine" is '''] term - and that's why it's not suitable for WP:TITLE''' without additional qualifier. ] (]) 10:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Each entity has its own article Foreign relations of Entity, regardless of the number of Governments, or control of the territory, or etc. Content of the article isn't the problem described in the intro. I disagree with you, it's still the same repetition of arguments. I don't see sense in continuing. ] (]) 18:30, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::::*If each entity has its own article, then we should have separate articles such as "Foreign relations of PNA", "Foreign relations of PLO", "Foreign relations of SoP". I don't think you are anybody else is proposing such setup. If by "entity" you mean "Palestine" - then you get to the core problem with the proposal - there are multiple "Palestine" entities and that's the reason the title should be explicit and not ambiguous and WP:EGG-like. ] (]) 08:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| It's not 140 of 193 UN members. It's 138 of 193 UN members plus 2 non-UN members (Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Vatican City) Please, correct it. ] (]) 18:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| Summary | |||
| *Voters: 7 | |||
| *For the proposed tittle Foreign relations of Palestine: 5 | |||
| *Result: 71% consensus for it. ] (]) 09:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Jan CZ, this is not a voting poll, and also no need for such summary after every response. Also some of those 5 also support the title "Foreign relations of the PLO". My summary of the above is the following: | |||
| : and a quick search shows other sources also saying 139, you provided no source, why do you think it is 138? ] (]) 18:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :*The same proposal was discussed before and not approved. Nothing has changed in the topic of the article or in the institutional setup of the entities involved since the last discussion. Recent UN vote also doesn't affect any of those and it's also RECENTISM. The proposal should not be approved per WP:TITLE - titles should not use ] terms in an WP:EGG-like fashion. ] (]) 10:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the article International recognition of the State of Palestine there are two tables. One table shows (one by one) the UN full member states that recognize Palestine (138) and another shows the UN full member states that do not recognize Palestine (55), which adds up to 193, which are the full member states of the UN. The fact that the Vatican City/Holy See (a UN observer state but not a full member and, therefore, not included in those 193 mentioned) and the Sahwari Republic (partially recognized state and not UN member) recognize Palestine creates confusion about the number in some media. | |||
| ::*The proposal endorsed by most editors. Inclusion of CI+Niue on the List of sovereign states had been discussed repeatedly. And finally, we have the inclusion of the two countries on the list. Niue was included with a minimum consensus of 61%. All those who were against the inclusion respect it. ] (]) 19:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::139 UN States recognize Palestine but not 139 of 193, but rather 138 of 193 + 1 "extra" member (Vatican City/Holy See). On the UN website (<nowiki>https://web.archive.org/web/20180927134802/http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations</nowiki>) it can be seen that in 2018 there were 137 States of the UN (including the Vatican City/Holy See). After recognition by Colombia and Saint Kitts and Nevis (which do not appear on that UN list because it is not updated), there are 139 UN States (138 of the 193 full members plus the Vatican City/Holy See) | |||
| :::*] and voting % is not the decision taking instrument and consensus is not measured in %. Also, I think CI/Niue are absolutely irrelevant here. What's important are the arguments - per WP:TITLE we can't have ] WP:EGG-like titles. ] (]) 08:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::Additionally, If you add the Sahrawi Republic there are 140 States, but by no means 140 of 193, but 138 of 193 + Vatican City/Holy See + Sahrawi Republic. | |||
| ::In the next links (among others), figure 138 of 193: | |||
| ::https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-67231803<nowiki/>https://www.visualcapitalist.com/recognition-of-palestine-map/ | |||
| ::] (]) 18:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :::WP is not a source so can't go by that. The BBC attributes that statement to someone called Walker. The last one might be useful as it gives a list of 55 states not recognizing Palestine. I wonder if the problem might be Mexico, there seems to be some doubt about that one. | |||
| ::: | |||
| ::: and | |||
| :::Maybe we still have some work to do to reconcile this. ] (]) 18:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I think the UN link (<nowiki>https://web.archive.org/web/20180927134802/http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations</nowiki>) is the best source. As I said, it can be seen that in 2018 there were 137 UN States (including Vatican City/Holy See). After the recognition of Colombia, Saint Kitts and Nevis and now, Barbados (which do not appear on that UN list because it is not updated), there are 140 UN States (139 of the 193 full members plus Vatican City/Holy See) | |||
| ::::The New York Times says " 138 countries and the Holy See have recognized the State of Palestine." (before Barbados' recognition) (see https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/18/world/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-un-veto.html) ] (]) 20:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| == Add to diplomatic relations list == | |||
| *Comment - Palestinian supporters prefer "Palestine" as it looks like a "normal state" and Israeli supporters prefer "anything other than Palestine" so that it don't look like a normal state (the same motivation that was behind the Palestinian initiative at the UN in 1988 for the short-form designation of the Palestinian delegation - and ironically now they want to reverse that back to full-name - as that now suits their cause better). But Misplaced Pages should be NPOV. Titles should describe the topic - they should not be tools for political promotion of noble causes. ] (]) 10:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| Ireland, Norway, and Spain. | |||
| *'''Close this already''' It's been 15 days, and conciseness is overwhelming to move this, I think it's time to close this RM and move the page. I strongly suggest relisting the below RM tough, everyone has been so focused on this one that there hasn't been much perpetration in that one. ] (]) 04:24, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| shown on ] ] (]) 19:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :*I agree to close it, but not to move it. Proposed move target is ] and WP:EGG-like. ] (]) 08:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''', The proposed title is ambiguous and unclear whose relations it refers. The alternative suggestion seem like a solution.--] (]) 05:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - with Mor2's opinion it seems that there is no solid majority for Soman's proposal; on the other hand also Japinderum's proposal doesn't seem to work...] (]) 11:53, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :* Niue was included with a minimum consensus of 61% on the List of sovereign states. Here is consensus 62% for proposed name of the article. ] (]) 12:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm sorry, but i couldn't understand your comment; please reformulate.] (]) 12:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::I want to say that here most consensus although not strong but it is sufficient to make a change. And I said for example, the change was made with even less support (case of Niue, see ]). Moreover, it is clear that the retention of the existing name has almost no support. 12% prefers the retention of the existing name, 62% prefers the proposed name, 25% prefers the alternative name. Leaving the current name in this situation probably is not the best solution, I think. ] (]) 13:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I did read the discussion there, and it seems that 58% (or 60%) is not counted as "consensus" for Niue inclusion . There is some attempt to include Niue based on hard Academic source, but that is a different thing. Consensus is usually considered as 75%; in some cases 67% can be considered (with good sources); less than 66% (which is what we have here) is very problematic and can be decided only by admins.] (]) 15:56, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*] and voting % is not the decision taking instrument and consensus is not measured in %. What's important are the arguments - per WP:TITLE we can't have ] WP:EGG-like titles. ] (]) 08:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Spain has long had de facto diplomatic relations with Palestine, only now they have increased, they are very positive symbolic relationships. ] (]) 18:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Alternative=== | |||
| * ] → {{no redirect|Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization}} - per WP:TITLE (avoiding WP:EGG-like situation and ] name in the title) - because PLO is the entity conducting the foreign relations - as the internationally recognized representative of the ] (including refugees outside of ]), as provisional government in exile of the State of Palestine, as representative abroad for the PNA. The State of Palestine and the PNA are also created by and accountable to the PLO and the PLO's PNC, PCC and PLO-EC. The sources for all of this are in the article(s), e.g. , : ISBN 978-0-19-826837-6 and others. ] (]) 09:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Still I support name ], but Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization is certainly better than the current name. If here cannot reach a consensus on the proposal ], I'll support your alternative proposal Foreign relations of the Palestine Liberation Organization. ] (]) 09:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Weak Oppose''' - i think we should wait to see what happens with the PNA and SoP.] (]) 17:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*I'm not against waiting, but had to propose the proper title, because of the above renaming request. The problem with waiting is the big probability that nothing substantial will happen (e.g. no "big bang" announcement of "PNA is disbanded" or "PNA is merged into SoP") - there may be some renaming here and there (like the health ministry website) and that's it. That will only complicate our editing work by increasing uncertainty in sources. ] (]) 06:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*If, one day, the situation will change (really born SoP, cease the PLO..), then the article can be renamed again. But that does not alter the fact that the article should now correspond to the current situation. Today the name is factually incorrect. Let's change it. ] (]) 07:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::*@Japinderum, this story might cause you to reconsider your mind - the Arab League website now says the member name is "State of Palestine" (Da'wlat Falastin). It seems to become the official designation of all PLO institutions, as the representative in the UN also attempted to change the sign from "Palestine" (under PLO) to "State of Palestine" (standalone) .] (]) 19:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::*State of Palestine is member of the Arab League since decades. Nothing new there. Long time ago other editors and I fished out sources explicitly showing "State of Palestine" as the Arab League member (for the table of international organizations participation in the article here). Same for OIC. The UN designation source is interesting, but it only shows what we already knew - PLO observer delegation is changed into SoP observer delegation. ] (]) 07:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*Thanks for your input, i thought Palestinians were simply represented as "Palestine" in the Arab League prior to the UN vote in November.] (]) 20:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::::*''"Long time ago other editors and I..."'' -- You might want to take care when it comes to recounting your history. Have a look at ''just'' how long ago that was done... '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. Makes about as much sense as the current title. Bilateral relations and foreign relations of the Palestinian Authority are not conducted by the PLO, nor are they attributed to it. '''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">]</span>''' 12:11, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :*Current title is wrong - contrary to that proposed here. Have you seen the sources at 09:26, 16 December 2012 and also in the articles? PNA does not have ANY representatives or missions abroad - only the PLO does. ] (]) 13:04, 20 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', Unless something has changed since 1995, the only Palestinian body that exercise diplomatic functions is PLO. In fact according to their agreement PNA is not allowed to conduct any type of foreign missions including establishment of embassies.--] (]) 09:25, 22 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::I suggest you should take a look at the above move proposal by Soman (the main discussion), to rename this article to "Foreign relations of Palestine".] (]) 11:51, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :::Apparently, you have already voted there, never mind...] (]) 11:54, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Comment''' - i think i was too early to talk about possible disband of PNA. Just today Abbas talked about PNA in present sense.] (]) 15:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
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tajikistan
http://mfa.tj/files/kitobkhona/tajikistan_diplomacy_the_past_and_the_present_1/tajikistan_diplomacy_the_past_and_the_present_en.pdf page 166 -COUNTRIES, THAT ESTABLISHED DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THE REPUBLIC OF TAJIKISTAN 06.03.1992 Palestine - please add--Murza-Zade (talk) 09:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Kyrgyz Republic
http://www.mfa.gov.kg/contents/view/id/98 12/9/1995 Palestine please add--Murza-Zade (talk) 10:00, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Norway
https://www.norway.no/en/palestine/norway-palestine/bilateral-relations/ Diplomatic relations between Norway and the Palestinian Authority was established in 1995. --Murza-Zade (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Israel
Israel is listed under the European section. This is incorrect. --Justinba1010 (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Botswana
http://apanews.net/en/pays/botswana/news/botswana-palestine-establish-ties-at-ambassadorial-level Botswana and Palestine have established formal and full diplomatic relations at ambassadorial level, a statement from the government in Gaborone confirmed on Friday. Mar 10, 2017--Murza-Zade (talk) 14:08, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Republic of Belarus
https://naviny.by/rubrics/politic/2003/02/22/ic_articles_112_144513 On 4 February,2003/ the first extraordinary and plenipotentiary Ambassador of Palestine in the Republic of Belarus, Muntser Fouad Abu Zeid, presented his credentials to the President of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko.
before this no any information about diplomatic relations--Murza-Zade (talk) 14:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
Not done for now: @Murza-Zade: Please what should be added and how; not just collection of links. –Ammarpad (talk) 15:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Remove weasel word from article
The introduction mentions the “so-called Palestine 194 Campaign. This is an inappropriate phrase for Misplaced Pages, conveying disagreement with the campaign by insinuating that the movement should not be called as such. At best, the inclusion of “so-called” is nonsensical, at worst it is an impotent attempt at attacking the campaign. Either way, the phrase does not belong. 2601:58B:4500:1010:A897:9AF2:5DAD:D18E (talk) 19:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Done 140
It's not 140 of 193 UN members. It's 138 of 193 UN members plus 2 non-UN members (Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Vatican City) Please, correct it. Fernan860 (talk) 18:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- AJ says it is 139 and a quick search shows other sources also saying 139, you provided no source, why do you think it is 138? Selfstudier (talk) 18:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- In the article International recognition of the State of Palestine there are two tables. One table shows (one by one) the UN full member states that recognize Palestine (138) and another shows the UN full member states that do not recognize Palestine (55), which adds up to 193, which are the full member states of the UN. The fact that the Vatican City/Holy See (a UN observer state but not a full member and, therefore, not included in those 193 mentioned) and the Sahwari Republic (partially recognized state and not UN member) recognize Palestine creates confusion about the number in some media.
- 139 UN States recognize Palestine but not 139 of 193, but rather 138 of 193 + 1 "extra" member (Vatican City/Holy See). On the UN website (https://web.archive.org/web/20180927134802/http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations) it can be seen that in 2018 there were 137 States of the UN (including the Vatican City/Holy See). After recognition by Colombia and Saint Kitts and Nevis (which do not appear on that UN list because it is not updated), there are 139 UN States (138 of the 193 full members plus the Vatican City/Holy See)
- Additionally, If you add the Sahrawi Republic there are 140 States, but by no means 140 of 193, but 138 of 193 + Vatican City/Holy See + Sahrawi Republic.
- In the next links (among others), figure 138 of 193:
- https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-67231803https://www.visualcapitalist.com/recognition-of-palestine-map/
- Fernan860 (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP is not a source so can't go by that. The BBC attributes that statement to someone called Walker. The last one might be useful as it gives a list of 55 states not recognizing Palestine. I wonder if the problem might be Mexico, there seems to be some doubt about that one.
- El Pais says 139
- So does DW and NPR
- Maybe we still have some work to do to reconcile this. Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think the UN link (https://web.archive.org/web/20180927134802/http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations) is the best source. As I said, it can be seen that in 2018 there were 137 UN States (including Vatican City/Holy See). After the recognition of Colombia, Saint Kitts and Nevis and now, Barbados (which do not appear on that UN list because it is not updated), there are 140 UN States (139 of the 193 full members plus Vatican City/Holy See)
- The New York Times says " 138 countries and the Holy See have recognized the State of Palestine." (before Barbados' recognition) (see https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/18/world/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-un-veto.html) Fernan860 (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Add to diplomatic relations list
Ireland, Norway, and Spain. shown on International recognition of the State of Palestine 168.16.191.222 (talk) 19:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- Spain has long had de facto diplomatic relations with Palestine, only now they have increased, they are very positive symbolic relationships. 94.73.55.220 (talk) 18:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)