Misplaced Pages

Talk:The Beatles (album): Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 02:51, 14 November 2021 editColiiiiin (talk | contribs)31 edits →Musical Styles: new section← Previous edit Latest revision as of 10:32, 10 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,182 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] 
(21 intermediate revisions by 13 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
{{Talk header|search=yes|archive_age=30|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} {{Talk header|search=yes}}
{{Vital article|class=GA|level=5|topic=Art
⚫ }}
{{Notice|Consensus per and is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.}} {{Notice|Consensus per and is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.}}
{{British English}} {{British English}}
Line 14: Line 12:
|action2link=/GA1 |action2link=/GA1
|action2result=passed |action2result=passed
|action2oldid=617496334


|dykdate=7 September 2014 |dykdate=7 September 2014
Line 28: Line 27:
|action3result=reviewed |action3result=reviewed
|action3oldid=938902072 |action3oldid=938902072
|otd2date=2023-11-22|otd2oldid=1185643199
}} }}
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|vital=yes|listas=Beatles, The|1=
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1=
{{WikiProject The Beatles|class=GA|importance=Top|apple=yes|martin=yes|also-beatles=yes|display=Beatles|attention=|listas=Beatles, The}} {{WikiProject The Beatles|importance=Top|apple=yes|martin=yes|display=Beatles|album=yes}}
{{WikiProject Albums|class=GA|importance=top}}
}} }}
{{Old move {{Old move
Line 52: Line 51:
}} }}
{{Annual readership}} {{Annual readership}}
{{Broken anchors|links=
* <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Tributes, tribute albums and cover albums) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Tributes, tribute albums and cover albums","appear":{"revid":26223672,"parentid":26220775,"timestamp":"2005-10-22T23:01:58Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":693361034,"parentid":693360697,"timestamp":"2015-12-02T01:50:12Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} -->
⚫ }}


== Musical breaks while recording "I Will" ==
== Why is the "Lady Madonna" single scrubbed from the article? ==

Any explanation at all? ] (]) 12:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
⚫ :Because it's not on the album nor recorded at the sessions for it. ] ] ] 20:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
::{{s|{{Reply|Ritchie333}} Can we remove the details about Pepper and MMT then? After all, they weren't the White Album, so we shouldn't mention them on this article. ] (]) 06:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)}}
I believe the single (and the two other songs recorded in February 1968) should be mentioned simply because it's the normal, encyclopedic thing to note what a band worked on in the interim between major projects like an LP record (this is why we mention Pepper and the MMT film). The songs ''are'' associated with the White Album, as in, they appear on the 50th anniversary edition, and were recorded so that the band would be free from recording obligations during their India trip (according to what I read from Lewisohn). It makes no difference whether the songs were recorded during the album's sessions — that's not the point. ] (]) 08:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
⚫ :The current prose reached agreement after the GA review and elsewhere; you’re best off discussing with {{u|JG66}} ] ] ] 08:49, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
::What does the article's GA classification have to do with anything? ] (]) 09:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
:::] (part of the "Ownership of articles" policy) : "{{xt|All editors are welcome to make changes and improve the article, but some discussion of significant changes is recommended, and the editors participating in the review may be able to offer advice and work with you on improving the article further.}}" ] ] ] 12:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
::::I'm not sure that adding two sentences to an 8500-word article constitutes "significant change". ] (]) 15:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
''(addendum)'' If you still wish to argue that the songs shouldn't be mentioned because they weren't part of the album sessions, that's just another point favoring the information's inclusion. People who aren't familiar with the subject would (rightfully) assume that the songs are related to the White Album unless there's a statement in the article that explicitly states something like they weren't "". ] (]) 09:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

:Mention of the single wasn't "scrubbed from the article"; you tried to add the point and it was reverted. And while I've become used to logic and common sense being in short supply whenever you attempt to edit a Beatles article, your statement here that "If you still wish to argue that the songs shouldn't be mentioned because they weren't part of the album sessions, that's just another point favoring the information's inclusion" is just baffling ...
:It's not a case of plugging a perceived hole in the band's CV, as you imply. If that were the case, the "All You Need Is Love" and "Hello Goodbye" non-album singles would appear to be missing also. Your claim that "Lady Madonna" is is utter rubbish. The songs were included on the 50th anniversary box set, but that is the first time that they've been ''associated'' with the White Album. From countless sources I've read, particularly when working on the relevant song articles, the March 1968 single represents a line in the sand – the situation couldn't be more different between those February sessions and starting work on the album in late May. That doesn't mean "Lady Madonna" has no place at all in this article: as a deliberate back-to-basics recording, it could easily be mentioned when discussing the album's musical styles or its relative lack of studio artifice; it could just as well be mentioned for the first time in text discussing the 50th anniversary box set. But it's not a single "associated" with the White Album (apart from the full, six?-CD edition issued in November 2018) and nor is it an important part of the album's pre-story.
:The Background section needs to establish some key points about the Beatles' position and activities before they made the album. Their standing after ''Sgt. Pepper'', the impact of which was still very much felt in early '68, and the perceived goof of ''Magical Mystery Tour'' are two obvious points. For a while, I've thought we could probably improve this section. Unlike you, though, I have some respect for the fact that an article has achieved GA or FA and has been well maintained since then. So I'll outline my suggestions here on the talk page (sometime soon). Because, if I just charge in like the proverbial bull in a china shop, especially by seeking to add some questionable detail or apply a or whatever, I'd fully expect to get other editors' backs up and be made to feel very unwelcome. ] (]) 11:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
:: You don't realize it, but you've further bolstered my argument — if March 1968 "represents a line in the sand", shouldn't we note this so-called line? If the LM single signalled a new "back-to-basics" approach that the band developed on the White Album, why isn't it relevant to the "pre-story"? When the White Album was anticipated by the Hey Jude single in August, had everyone forgotten that the last Beatles release occurred in March, and that a major feature-length Beatles film premiered in July? Why, when it comes to the-White-Album-story-as-according-to-JG66, does Beatles history start at May 1967 and drop out between January and February 1968? Why do you think Hello Goodbye, a song universally associated with MMT, is contextually comparable to LM, a song the band worked on in much closer thematic and chronological proximity to the White Album sessions?
::What if, instead, the paragraph ended something like this:
::{{tq| fan reaction was nevertheless positive. In early 1968, the group commenced sessions for a new single in order to free their schedules for the coming months. From these sessions, "]" was issued with the B-side "]" in March. {{small|(possible footnote: The two other songs they recorded in early 1968, "]" and "]", were submitted for consideration in the upcoming '']'' film.)}} The band signalled a return to simpler ] traditions with the former, a development that extended to much of the writing for their next LP project, along with the song's lesser reliance on studio artifice. }}
:: Or is that enough to destroy the article's pace? ] (]) 15:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
:::I have no comment to make on any particular specific suggestion of text at this time , but agree with 2 general premises from above: 1) Lady Madonna should probably get at least a mention in a Background section for reasons already stated; 2) The song is on the 50th anniversary release, and readers may very well wonder ''why'', given that the song is not mentioned anywhere else in the article. --] (]) 02:52, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

== RfC on syntax ==
<div class="boilerplate archived" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">{{Quote box
| title =
| title_bg = #C3C3C3
| title_fnt = #000
| quote = There is a clear consensus for:
:* '''A''': In May 1967, the Beatles album '']'' was released to commercial and critical success. It sold 250,000 copies in its first week and topped the UK charts for 27 weeks, through to the start of February 1968.
] (]) 23:20, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
| width = 30%|halign=left}}
:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from Template:Archive top-->
----
{{anchor|rfc_C08D017}}For the article's "Background" section, which wording is preferable?
* '''A''': In May 1967, the Beatles album '']'' was released to commercial and critical success. It sold 250,000 copies in its first week and topped the UK charts for 27 weeks, through to the start of February 1968.
* '''B''': By 1968, the Beatles had achieved commercial and critical success. The group's mid-1967 release, ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'', was number one in the UK for 27 weeks, through to the start of February 1968, having sold 250,000 copies in the first week after release.
] (]) 09:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)


"In between numerous takes, the three Beatles broke off to busk some other songs." That's not busking. Jamming, perhaps. Relaxing, maybe. Goofing off, even. But it's not busking. "Bounce around," perhaps? ] (]) 04:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
===Survey===
⚫ :What is your source of information? ] ] ] 12:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
* '''A''' Less wordy and straight to the point. ] (]) 09:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
*'''A''' because mentioned above, and the Beatles had already achieved comercial and critical success before 1968. ] (]) 20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
*'''A''' with B being too wordy. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 21:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
*'''A''' because it does not jump back and forth in time and it is also more factual and less opinion-based (they certainly had plenty of success before 1968). --] (]) 14:40, 9 February 2020 (UTC)


== Genre: psychedelia should be added ==
===Comments===
* What's the source for "A"? ] ] ] 12:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
:*Everett and ], as already cited in the article. Numerous can be easily provided for the first claim (see the Pepper article). ] (]) 13:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
*You may want to lose the American comma after the year, what ever you choose. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px Black;">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 21:36, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
----
: ''The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''<!-- from ] --></div><div style="clear:both;"></div>


Multiple songs fit this category, and according to source 56: "The Beatles' White Album release marked the coming death of the 60s, but it was also The Beatles' most psychedelic and surreal record."
== Reissues section ==


I had edited this but realized I should've added a source and someone had removed it by then. It's true in any case that quite a few songs use the same experimental studio techniques as previous albums or are simply psychedelic songs. It says psychedelic music right under genres and length, too. ] (]) 19:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone think the paragraph beginning "Tape versions of the album did not feature a white cover or the numbering system" is sufficiently notable for inclusion? None of it is sourced to a third-party RS that actually comments on the issue; instead, it's self-sourced, and "we" seem to be saying the points are significant. (Not only that, but the text is sitting in the Reissues section when in fact it concerns the original release.)
:Infoboxes by necessity have limited information. For an album, especially one with very diverse genres that are in the White album, we can't always include every genre of every song. The three genres currently in the infobox capture the majority of the album. Most of the songs are not psychedelic. As for the one source you mention, it's one opinion from one website; in fact, that source appears to have disappeared from the link (although it might be rescued if we look hard enough) so currently we don't have any details about what the writer meant. I personally don't support adding psychedelia, but thanks for bringing this to the talk page. If there is enough support here to form a ], it might be possible to add another genre. ] (]) 20:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
:I found the article for the citation and corrected the citation. Except for the title, the article has virtually nothing about psychedelic genre. In fact, in my opinion, the title makes no sense after reading the article. "Psychedelic music" is in ] cited to the source. I think that's sufficient. ] (]) 20:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


== Cultural references ==
It was quite normal for cassettes and 8-track cartridges to have a different sequencing, as I understand it, and the White Album certainly wasn't the only Beatles album affected. I don't see a reason to include this information unless some decent sources tell us it is significant. ] (]) 10:33, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


⚫ Seems there is a over this section. While I don't like edit-warring, I'm actually fairly ambivalent about whether the article should include this. So can somebody briefly summarise the pros and the cons for it? ] ] ] 12:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
== Is George Martin a reliable source? ==


:Also ambivalent. If the sources (and then the paragraph) connected these issues up with the album itself rather than just being contemporaneous, it would make more sense to include them here. And a different section: usually "cultural references" mean culture referencing the subject, not "impressions of the authors from around that time." --John (]/]) 16:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
I recently added some information citing an interview with George Martin as the source. This interview was recorded in 1993 and is currently available on YouTube. It is from the archive of Reelin’ In The Years Productions. My edit was reverted with the explanation "not a reliable source". If George Martin is not a reliable source, who is?--] (]) 13:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
:Well, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, George Martin is a primary source, so per ], there are no end of more reliable sources than him (ie, third-party secondary sources). And especially by 1968 – in fact in that year of all years – he was on the outer with them, eg, he describes himself as more of an executive producer on the White Album. So I wouldn't say he was that well informed, compared to previous years. ] (]) 13:58, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
:: Interesting comment. How about then the multiple instances of quotations by the Beatles themselves in this article? Wouldn't they also be primary sources? One might say, of course, that these quotes are all extracted from print materials while Martin's comments were captured on video; but that's just a difference in the mode of transmission. The sources are all "primary". And an executive producer is not just a bystander.--] (]) 11:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)


== Arrival dates ==
== Move page to The Beatles (White album) ==


There is mention of the differing departure dates, so wouldn’t it be appropriate to mention the arrival dates? There are two, 15 February and 19 February, so can I suggest "mid-February"? ] ] 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Do you think it would be appropriate to move this page from The Beatles (album) to The Beatles (White album)? All the self-titled releases by ] are done in this style (E.G. ]) and I was simply wondering if something similar is appropriate for here. ] (]) 16:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
:{{ping|Moline1}} Weezer has multiple self-titled albums, so the color is used as an additional disambiguator. Since The Beatles only have one self-titled album, the color isn't needed in the title. ] (]) 16:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
::{{ping|GoingBatty}} That makes complete sense. Was not even thinking about that when I made this discussion. With this cleared up, I consider this "closed". ] (]) 22:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)


== Musical Styles == == Certification ==


Should say double diamond ] (]) 01:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
"Happiness Is A Warm Gun" really flies in the face of this sentence in the second paragraph: "The Beatles also broke with the band's tradition at the time of incorporating several musical styles in one song by keeping each piece of music consistently faithful to a select genre."

Latest revision as of 10:32, 10 July 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Beatles (album) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
Consensus per this RfC closure and this RfM closure is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
Good articleThe Beatles (album) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You KnowOn this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 23, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2014Good article nomineeListed
April 3, 2016Peer reviewReviewed
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on September 7, 2014.The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that The Beatles sold for over £19,000?
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on November 22, 2018, and November 22, 2023.
Current status: Good article
This  level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject iconThe Beatles Top‑importance
WikiProject iconThis Beatles-related article is within the scope of WikiProject The Beatles, which focuses on improving coverage of English rock band The Beatles and related topics on Misplaced Pages. Users who are willing to participate in the project should visit the project page, where they can join and see a list of open tasks.The BeatlesWikipedia:WikiProject The BeatlesTemplate:WikiProject The BeatlesThe Beatles
TopThis article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to albums on Misplaced Pages.
To-do list:
For WikiProject The Beatles

A list of articles needing cleanup associated with this project is available. See also the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects.


Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

This article does not yet have a related to do list. If you can think of any ways to improve the article, why not create one?
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

  • ] The anchor (#Tributes, tribute albums and cover albums) is no longer available because it was deleted by a user before.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

Musical breaks while recording "I Will"

"In between numerous takes, the three Beatles broke off to busk some other songs." That's not busking. Jamming, perhaps. Relaxing, maybe. Goofing off, even. But it's not busking. "Bounce around," perhaps? Huw Powell (talk) 04:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

What is your source of information? Ritchie333 12:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Genre: psychedelia should be added

Multiple songs fit this category, and according to source 56: "The Beatles' White Album release marked the coming death of the 60s, but it was also The Beatles' most psychedelic and surreal record."

I had edited this but realized I should've added a source and someone had removed it by then. It's true in any case that quite a few songs use the same experimental studio techniques as previous albums or are simply psychedelic songs. It says psychedelic music right under genres and length, too. BrianVL (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Infoboxes by necessity have limited information. For an album, especially one with very diverse genres that are in the White album, we can't always include every genre of every song. The three genres currently in the infobox capture the majority of the album. Most of the songs are not psychedelic. As for the one source you mention, it's one opinion from one website; in fact, that source appears to have disappeared from the link (although it might be rescued if we look hard enough) so currently we don't have any details about what the writer meant. I personally don't support adding psychedelia, but thanks for bringing this to the talk page. If there is enough support here to form a WP:CONSENSUS, it might be possible to add another genre. Sundayclose (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
I found the article for the citation and corrected the citation. Except for the title, the article has virtually nothing about psychedelic genre. In fact, in my opinion, the title makes no sense after reading the article. "Psychedelic music" is in The Beatles (album) cited to the source. I think that's sufficient. Sundayclose (talk) 20:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Cultural references

Seems there is a bit of a dispute over this section. While I don't like edit-warring, I'm actually fairly ambivalent about whether the article should include this. So can somebody briefly summarise the pros and the cons for it? Ritchie333 12:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Also ambivalent. If the sources (and then the paragraph) connected these issues up with the album itself rather than just being contemporaneous, it would make more sense to include them here. And a different section: usually "cultural references" mean culture referencing the subject, not "impressions of the authors from around that time." --John (User:Jwy/talk) 16:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Arrival dates

There is mention of the differing departure dates, so wouldn’t it be appropriate to mention the arrival dates? There are two, 15 February and 19 February, so can I suggest "mid-February"? Boscaswell talk 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Certification

Should say double diamond Wolf O'Donnel (talk) 01:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Categories: