| Revision as of 21:36, 4 February 2020 editCassianto (talk | contribs)37,404 edits →Survey← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 10:32, 10 July 2024 edit undoQwerfjkl (bot) (talk | contribs)Bots, Mass message senders4,012,186 editsm Removed deprecated parameters in {{Talk header}} that are now handled automatically (Task 30)Tag: paws [2.2] | ||
| (44 intermediate revisions by 27 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Talk header|search=yes}} | {{Talk header|search=yes}} | ||
| {{Vital article|class=GA|level=5|topic=Art | |||
| ⚫ | }} | ||
| {{Notice|Consensus per and is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.}} | {{Notice|Consensus per and is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence.}} | ||
| {{British English}} | {{British English}} | ||
| Line 14: | Line 12: | ||
| |action2link=/GA1 | |action2link=/GA1 | ||
| |action2result=passed | |action2result=passed | ||
| |action2oldid=617496334 | |||
| |dykdate=7 September 2014 | |dykdate=7 September 2014 | ||
| |dykentry=that ''''']''''' sold for over £19,000? | |dykentry=... that ''''']''''' sold for over £19,000? | ||
| |otddate=22 November 2018 | |||
| |otdoldid=870163079 | |||
| |currentstatus=GA | |currentstatus=GA | ||
| Line 25: | Line 27: | ||
| |action3result=reviewed | |action3result=reviewed | ||
| |action3oldid=938902072 | |action3oldid=938902072 | ||
| |otd2date=2023-11-22|otd2oldid=1185643199 | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{WikiProject banner shell|class=GA|vital=yes|listas=Beatles, The|1= | |||
| {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
| {{WikiProject The Beatles |
{{WikiProject The Beatles|importance=Top|apple=yes|martin=yes|display=Beatles|album=yes}} | ||
| {{WikiProject Albums|class=GA|importance=top}} | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{Old move | |||
| ⚫ | |from1=The Beatles (album) |destination1=The White Album|result1=No consensus|date1=18 August 2011|link1=Talk:The Beatles (album)/Archive 1#Requested move | ||
| {{Old moves|list= | |||
| |from2=The Beatles (album) |destination2=The Beatles (White Album)|result2=Withdrawn|date2=28 March 2014|link2=Talk:The Beatles (album)/Archive 1#Requested move 2 | |||
| |from3=The Beatles (album) |destination3=White Album|result3=No consensus|date3=31 March 2014|link3=Talk:The Beatles (album)/Archive 2#Requested move 31 March 2014 | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{Auto archiving notice|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III|age=30|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
| {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn | {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn | ||
| |target=Talk:The Beatles (album)/Archive index | |target=Talk:The Beatles (album)/Archive index | ||
| Line 51: | Line 51: | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| {{Annual readership}} | {{Annual readership}} | ||
| {{Broken anchors|links= | |||
| {{OnThisDay|date1=2018-11-22|oldid1=870163079}} | |||
| * <nowiki>]</nowiki> The anchor (#Tributes, tribute albums and cover albums) is no longer available because it was ] before. <!-- {"title":"Tributes, tribute albums and cover albums","appear":{"revid":26223672,"parentid":26220775,"timestamp":"2005-10-22T23:01:58Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":},"disappear":{"revid":693361034,"parentid":693360697,"timestamp":"2015-12-02T01:50:12Z","removed_section_titles":,"added_section_titles":}} --> | |||
| ⚫ | }} | ||
| == Chris Thomas == | |||
| ⚫ | |||
| Question: why is Chris Thomas listed as "Producer" in the Personnel section, but not in the infobox up top? And where is the consensus you mentioned? (Not pushing for a particular approach — I'm sincerely asking.) | |||
| To be completely fair, no one is "officially" credited as "Producer" on the original album credits, not even George Martin, who's sole mention is the first acknowledgment in their list of "Thanks to", which also includes Chris Thomas (listed second), as well as the engineers, photographers, and other in the immediate support team during the making of the album. | |||
| Mark Lewison relates a detailed account of Martin's walking out on the sessions upon Thomas' arrival, effectively leaving the album's completion in the latter's hands. Roughly one-third to one-half of the songs were recorded under his supervision. | |||
| == Musical breaks while recording "I Will" == | |||
| Indeed, the article on the album at | |||
| https://www.beatlesbible.com/albums/the-beatles-white-album/ | |||
| lists Martin and Thomas, along with Lennon and McCartney, all as producers. | |||
| "In between numerous takes, the three Beatles broke off to busk some other songs." That's not busking. Jamming, perhaps. Relaxing, maybe. Goofing off, even. But it's not busking. "Bounce around," perhaps? ] (]) 04:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | :What is your source of information? ] ] ] 12:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC) | ||
| == |
== Genre: psychedelia should be added == | ||
| Multiple songs fit this category, and according to source 56: "The Beatles' White Album release marked the coming death of the 60s, but it was also The Beatles' most psychedelic and surreal record." | |||
| ''A Doll's House'' wasn't the first working title for the album. Before it was called that, Paul came up with the title ''Umbrella'' to account for its wide variety of different styles and genres that it incoporates, as according to Mark Osteen (ed.), , University of Michigan Press, 2019, page 1 (of the introduction). I remember reading a few times before that George remarked in passing that the title of ''Umbrella'' was already around while they were still in Rishikesh, though it seems he considered that title more of a (lame?) joke, and Osteen also emphasizes that ''Umbrella'' already had been adopted as a working title for the album "before the LP '''' had been recorded". | |||
| I had edited this but realized I should've added a source and someone had removed it by then. It's true in any case that quite a few songs use the same experimental studio techniques as previous albums or are simply psychedelic songs. It says psychedelic music right under genres and length, too. ] (]) 19:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| And I think somewhere in-between, the band even considered naming the album "Mother Nature's Sons" or "Children of Nature", hence the discarded cover drawing of all four Beatles sitting in the grass that later turned up in '']'' credited to "Patrick, Portal Gallery, London" (aka ]) and as the cover to 1980's '']''. After all, the "organic", "unplugged", down-to-earth nature (also referred to as supposedly "lo-fi" by Giles Martin in his promotion of the new 2018 stereo mix) of the White Album after the flights of psychedelic fancy is widely known, so that "The Beatles as Nature Intended", the slogan later used for promotion of the ''Let it Be'' album, would've been even more appropriate for the White Album, all of which gels well with the discarded Byrne cover and a temporary working title of either "Mother Nature's Sons" or "Children of Nature". --] (]) 20:52, 1 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :Infoboxes by necessity have limited information. For an album, especially one with very diverse genres that are in the White album, we can't always include every genre of every song. The three genres currently in the infobox capture the majority of the album. Most of the songs are not psychedelic. As for the one source you mention, it's one opinion from one website; in fact, that source appears to have disappeared from the link (although it might be rescued if we look hard enough) so currently we don't have any details about what the writer meant. I personally don't support adding psychedelia, but thanks for bringing this to the talk page. If there is enough support here to form a ], it might be possible to add another genre. ] (]) 20:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :I found the article for the citation and corrected the citation. Except for the title, the article has virtually nothing about psychedelic genre. In fact, in my opinion, the title makes no sense after reading the article. "Psychedelic music" is in ] cited to the source. I think that's sufficient. ] (]) 20:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Cultural references == | |||
| == Why is the "Lady Madonna" single scrubbed from the article? == | |||
| ⚫ | Seems there is a over this section. While I don't like edit-warring, I'm actually fairly ambivalent about whether the article should include this. So can somebody briefly summarise the pros and the cons for it? ] ] ] 12:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC) | ||
| Any explanation at all? ] (]) 12:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ⚫ | : |
||
| ::{{s|{{Reply|Ritchie333}} Can we remove the details about Pepper and MMT then? After all, they weren't the White Album, so we shouldn't mention them on this article. ] (]) 06:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)}} | |||
| I believe the single (and the two other songs recorded in February 1968) should be mentioned simply because it's the normal, encyclopedic thing to note what a band worked on in the interim between major projects like an LP record (this is why we mention Pepper and the MMT film). The songs ''are'' associated with the White Album, as in, they appear on the 50th anniversary edition, and were recorded so that the band would be free from recording obligations during their India trip (according to what I read from Lewisohn). It makes no difference whether the songs were recorded during the album's sessions — that's not the point. ] (]) 08:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :The current prose reached agreement after the GA review and elsewhere; you’re best off discussing with {{u|JG66}} ] ] ] 08:49, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::What does the article's GA classification have to do with anything? ] (]) 09:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :::] (part of the "Ownership of articles" policy) : "{{xt|All editors are welcome to make changes and improve the article, but some discussion of significant changes is recommended, and the editors participating in the review may be able to offer advice and work with you on improving the article further.}}" ] ] ] 12:14, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not sure that adding two sentences to an 8500-word article constitutes "significant change". ] (]) 15:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ''(addendum)'' If you still wish to argue that the songs shouldn't be mentioned because they weren't part of the album sessions, that's just another point favoring the information's inclusion. People who aren't familiar with the subject would (rightfully) assume that the songs are related to the White Album unless there's a statement in the article that explicitly states something like they weren't "". ] (]) 09:01, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :Also ambivalent. If the sources (and then the paragraph) connected these issues up with the album itself rather than just being contemporaneous, it would make more sense to include them here. And a different section: usually "cultural references" mean culture referencing the subject, not "impressions of the authors from around that time." --John (]/]) 16:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC) | |||
| :Mention of the single wasn't "scrubbed from the article"; you tried to add the point and it was reverted. And while I've become used to logic and common sense being in short supply whenever you attempt to edit a Beatles article, your statement here that "If you still wish to argue that the songs shouldn't be mentioned because they weren't part of the album sessions, that's just another point favoring the information's inclusion" is just baffling ... | |||
| :It's not a case of plugging a perceived hole in the band's CV, as you imply. If that were the case, the "All You Need Is Love" and "Hello Goodbye" non-album singles would appear to be missing also. Your claim that "Lady Madonna" is is utter rubbish. The songs were included on the 50th anniversary box set, but that is the first time that they've been ''associated'' with the White Album. From countless sources I've read, particularly when working on the relevant song articles, the March 1968 single represents a line in the sand – the situation couldn't be more different between those February sessions and starting work on the album in late May. That doesn't mean "Lady Madonna" has no place at all in this article: as a deliberate back-to-basics recording, it could easily be mentioned when discussing the album's musical styles or its relative lack of studio artifice; it could just as well be mentioned for the first time in text discussing the 50th anniversary box set. But it's not a single "associated" with the White Album (apart from the full, six?-CD edition issued in November 2018) and nor is it an important part of the album's pre-story. | |||
| :The Background section needs to establish some key points about the Beatles' position and activities before they made the album. Their standing after ''Sgt. Pepper'', the impact of which was still very much felt in early '68, and the perceived goof of ''Magical Mystery Tour'' are two obvious points. For a while, I've thought we could probably improve this section. Unlike you, though, I have some respect for the fact that an article has achieved GA or FA and has been well maintained since then. So I'll outline my suggestions here on the talk page (sometime soon). Because, if I just charge in like the proverbial bull in a china shop, especially by seeking to add some questionable detail or apply a or whatever, I'd fully expect to get other editors' backs up and be made to feel very unwelcome. ] (]) 11:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: You don't realize it, but you've further bolstered my argument — if March 1968 "represents a line in the sand", shouldn't we note this so-called line? If the LM single signalled a new "back-to-basics" approach that the band developed on the White Album, why isn't it relevant to the "pre-story"? When the White Album was anticipated by the Hey Jude single in August, had everyone forgotten that the last Beatles release occurred in March, and that a major feature-length Beatles film premiered in July? Why, when it comes to the-White-Album-story-as-according-to-JG66, does Beatles history start at May 1967 and drop out between January and February 1968? Why do you think Hello Goodbye, a song universally associated with MMT, is contextually comparable to LM, a song the band worked on in much closer thematic and chronological proximity to the White Album sessions? | |||
| ::What if, instead, the paragraph ended something like this: | |||
| ::{{tq| fan reaction was nevertheless positive. In early 1968, the group commenced sessions for a new single in order to free their schedules for the coming months. From these sessions, "]" was issued with the B-side "]" in March. {{small|(possible footnote: The two other songs they recorded in early 1968, "]" and "]", were submitted for consideration in the upcoming '']'' film.)}} The band signalled a return to simpler ] traditions with the former, a development that extended to much of the writing for their next LP project, along with the song's lesser reliance on studio artifice. }} | |||
| :: Or is that enough to destroy the article's pace? ] (]) 15:08, 14 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Arrival dates == | ||
| There is mention of the differing departure dates, so wouldn’t it be appropriate to mention the arrival dates? There are two, 15 February and 19 February, so can I suggest "mid-February"? ] ] 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| {{anchor|rfc_C08D017}}{{rfc|media|rfcid=B2CEE66}} | |||
| For the article's "Background" section, which wording is preferable? | |||
| * '''A''': In May 1967, the Beatles album '']'' was released to commercial and critical success. It sold 250,000 copies in its first week and topped the UK charts for 27 weeks, through to the start of February 1968. | |||
| * '''B''': By 1968, the Beatles had achieved commercial and critical success. The group's mid-1967 release, ''Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'', was number one in the UK for 27 weeks, through to the start of February 1968, having sold 250,000 copies in the first week after release. | |||
| ] (]) 09:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Certification == | ||
| * '''A''' Less wordy and straight to the point. ] (]) 09:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| *'''A''' because mentioned above, and the Beatles had already achieved comercial and critical success before 1968. ] (]) 20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC) | |||
| Should say double diamond ] (]) 01:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ===Comments=== | |||
| * What's the source for "A"? ] ] ] 12:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :*Everett and ], as already cited in the article. Numerous can be easily provided for the first claim (see the Pepper article). ] (]) 13:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 10:32, 10 July 2024
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Beatles (album) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days  |
 | Consensus per this RfC closure and this RfM closure is to use "the Beatles" mid-sentence. |
 | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
 | The Beatles (album) has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||
| This  level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
 |
Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
|
Musical breaks while recording "I Will"
"In between numerous takes, the three Beatles broke off to busk some other songs." That's not busking. Jamming, perhaps. Relaxing, maybe. Goofing off, even. But it's not busking. "Bounce around," perhaps? Huw Powell (talk) 04:24, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- What is your source of information? Ritchie333 12:30, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Genre: psychedelia should be added
Multiple songs fit this category, and according to source 56: "The Beatles' White Album release marked the coming death of the 60s, but it was also The Beatles' most psychedelic and surreal record."
I had edited this but realized I should've added a source and someone had removed it by then. It's true in any case that quite a few songs use the same experimental studio techniques as previous albums or are simply psychedelic songs. It says psychedelic music right under genres and length, too. BrianVL (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Infoboxes by necessity have limited information. For an album, especially one with very diverse genres that are in the White album, we can't always include every genre of every song. The three genres currently in the infobox capture the majority of the album. Most of the songs are not psychedelic. As for the one source you mention, it's one opinion from one website; in fact, that source appears to have disappeared from the link (although it might be rescued if we look hard enough) so currently we don't have any details about what the writer meant. I personally don't support adding psychedelia, but thanks for bringing this to the talk page. If there is enough support here to form a WP:CONSENSUS, it might be possible to add another genre. Sundayclose (talk) 20:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- I found the article for the citation and corrected the citation. Except for the title, the article has virtually nothing about psychedelic genre. In fact, in my opinion, the title makes no sense after reading the article. "Psychedelic music" is in The Beatles (album) cited to the source. I think that's sufficient. Sundayclose (talk) 20:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Cultural references
Seems there is a bit of a dispute over this section. While I don't like edit-warring, I'm actually fairly ambivalent about whether the article should include this. So can somebody briefly summarise the pros and the cons for it? Ritchie333 12:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
- Also ambivalent. If the sources (and then the paragraph) connected these issues up with the album itself rather than just being contemporaneous, it would make more sense to include them here. And a different section: usually "cultural references" mean culture referencing the subject, not "impressions of the authors from around that time." --John (User:Jwy/talk) 16:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
Arrival dates
There is mention of the differing departure dates, so wouldn’t it be appropriate to mention the arrival dates? There are two, 15 February and 19 February, so can I suggest "mid-February"? Boscaswell talk 19:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Certification
Should say double diamond Wolf O'Donnel (talk) 01:58, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Categories:- Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
- Misplaced Pages good articles
- Music good articles
- Old requests for peer review
- Misplaced Pages Did you know articles that are good articles
- GA-Class level-5 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in Arts
- GA-Class vital articles in Arts
- GA-Class The Beatles articles
- Top-importance The Beatles articles
- GA-Class Album articles
- WikiProject Albums articles
- GA-Class George Martin articles
- GA-Class Apple Corps and Apple Records articles
- WikiProject The Beatles articles