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== Coup or a legal act? ==
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N E W M E S S A G E S G O A T T H E B O T T O M
Can this event be considered as a military coup as the Supreme Court of Honduras ordered (according to the BBC) the Army to remove the president who refused to cancel his illegal referendum and to reappoint the Army Chief as ordered by the same court. I deem that this is not coup but a constitutional removal from office ordered by the Court and executed by the Army. --] (]) 17:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


(WHY?) New messages should go at the top. ~~~
The BBC article does not say that the Supreme Court ordered the army to do anything at all. All the article says is, "The Honduran Supreme Court said it had ordered the removal of the president." That doesn't necessarily mean the court wanted the army to do anything at all. ] (]) 17:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


"When starting a new discussion, place it at the bottom of the page." -- ]
After reading a translation from freetranslation.com of http://www.elheraldo.hn/Ediciones/2009/06/28/Noticias/Fuerzas-Armadas-han-actuado-en-base-a-derecho-dice-la-justicia-hondurena I think that perhaps 80.222.253.214 is right; it does appear the court may have given the military some legal authority to do this, but I am not sure exactly what the court approved. ] (]) 18:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


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The Acting President, Roberto Micheletti said that since Zelaya's acts were unconstitutional, the military was defending the Constitution, so I guess it's a legal act and not a coup ] (]) 20:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


==Help with a link==
Sure, the international community was quick to condemn the 'military coup', a was I. But if really the Supreme Court ordered the president's removal and its legal, then there was no coup...then there was a legal removal of the president. I also read some BBC stories about Honduras the last days and it seems that the ousted president wasnt following the Rule of Law. If there is more reliable references about the legal aspect of the sack of the president by the Court, we should replace 'Coup' with 'sacking of the president'. ] (]) 20:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
In the "Zelaya’s secret return to Honduras" section, this bit "assaulted the occupants of the embassy with toxic gases and radiation," ends with an archived link that doesn't seem to work. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== External links modified ==
Did the Supreme Court have the legal power to remove the president? I know the Congress was preparing to impeach Zelaya. In many countries legally removing an elected leader is done by the legislature, not by the courts. Does anyone know what Honduran law says about this? On the referendum article, someone linked to a copy of the Honduran constitution. Unfortunately I don't read Spanish, so I can't go and look for the answer. The link is http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html if anyone wants to try.] (]) 20:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
::If the supreme cout would have had the legal power to remove Zelaya from office then it would not have been nessesary to do it in such "coup styled" way, I mean
#few hours until a referendum
#Deport the president (are they not going to judge him)
#Sorround the presidential recidency with military
#Do actions againts the ambasadors of other countries.


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Well I dont speak Spanish, but there is Google translator... I found in the 'President section' nothing about removal of office. I did found this in the 'Supreme Court section':
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ARTICLE 319 .- The Supreme Court shall have the following powers: (...omission by me...) 2. Meet the offenses of both officers and senior officials of the Republic, when Congress has declared the formation of a cause;


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I dont know if president is a 'senior official of the republic', but I suppose he is, and Congress did plan to impeach Zelaya. And Zelaya was kinda breaking the law by not following the court orders.
About the post above me, I also found it all a bit fast. Normally you would expect a trial. But about the ambassador of Venuzuela that was kidnapped and beaten: all that I found about this was a statement of Hugo Chavez, president of Venuzuela. I do not think that we can have Hugo Chavez as a reliable source for anything, IMHO. (And I am a moderate leftist European, if you are interrested in my political views :)] (]) 20:50, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
:There is no question the congress are saying it is not a coup d'etate and therefore the name should be changed to fit our NPOV policy. Thanks, ] ] 20:51, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 19:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091007013830/http://www.miamiherald.com/honduras/v-fullstory/story/1248828.html to http://www.miamiherald.com/honduras/v-fullstory/story/1248828.html
It's definitely not a coup, in Ratemonth's link I found that article 239 of the Constitution says:
:"El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Designado.
:El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos, y quedarán :inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública."
In english, that is
:"Any citizen who has served in the Executive Power will not be able to be President or Designated
:He whom breaks this or proposes it's reform, as well as anyone who supports them directly or undirectly, will be discharged immediatly from their respective charges, and will be disabled for ten :years for the exercise of any public position" ] (]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 21:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::The fact a completely anti-democratic element of their constitution allows them to remove him doesn't change the fact he was removed with military force. Many coup-prone states have introduced laws or articles in their constitutions that essentially authorize coups. A coup doesn't need to be illegal in the country in question.--] (]) 21:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Unfortunately the English text given here has a critical error in the translation of the Spanish. It actually says "... will cease immediately to occupy their respective positions and will remain ineligible for 10 years for the exercise of any public function". Note it does NOT say "will be discharged" or "will be disabled", which would imply more directly that someone (e.g. the army) has the power to remove them. ] (]) 22:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


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::: A constitution being anti-democratic or having some anti-democratic clause will not make a constitution action becomes a coup. The word "coup" applies to non-democratic governments as well, even the person who made a coup has raise an democratic election later.--] (]) 23:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
::::For one that specifically applies to someone proposing an end to term limits, which is only what his opponents alleged not what actually was being suggested. For another if this was purely a legal action why would they send in military forces to remove him, send him off to Costa Rica, flood the streets with troops, close down media stations, impose a curfew, and arrest everyone loyal to him even if they aren't part of government? Face it, this was a coup d'etat. I find it completely amazing that the absurd objections of a few editors is preventing us from calling a spade a spade.--] (]) 03:26, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
President ] just stated that the Supreme Court and the Congress ordered the military to capture Mel Zelaya. ] (]) 21:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
:Note that Roberto Micheletti is recently sworn as President. While judges have no authority to decide who may succeed Zelaya, the Congress should have that authority under virtue of rule of law. Of course this practice could be questioned because it is non-democratic.--] (]) 02:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
:'s an opinion piece. I keep seeing it called a golpe de estado, which mean coup, in the Spanish media. -- ] 03:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


I have just added archive links to {{plural:13|one external link|13 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
===Legal process===
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It appears to me that the arrest is a legal process, and the army has only done to enforce an order of law court. The remaining question is, whether the arrest order is constitutional and acceptable under rule of law. This is important. An order of law court should not automatically considered as constitutional, and an arrest with order may be unconstitutional as well if its legal basis is faulty.--] (]) 23:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' or '''failed''' to let others know (documentation at {{tlx|Sourcecheck}}).
:It looks like the constitutional justifications come from Article 239, which seems to say that trying to change the constitution to permit re-election results in the immediate cessation of office for the offender, and Article 42, which appears to state that citizenship can be revoked for supporting the continued governance or re-election of an executive. ] (]) 01:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


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::Yeah, I've translated article 239 in a footnote. Note that it is a general prohibition: ANYONE who tries to reform article 239 "will cease carrying out their office" and is ineligible for any public charge for 10 years. If such a person were anyone but the president, then it's clear enough that the president should fire them; but when that person IS the president, there's no indication of how they are supposed to be removed.
::IMO, even if this reading is valid and Zelaya is not president, it is still a coup, as there is no constitutional basis for the army to send him into exile. The supreme court justices may have told the army to do it, but if they did then they were not speaking with the authority of the court, as the supreme court had no official session in which they found Zelaya in violation of article 239. ] (]) 02:27, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 02:47, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Have in mind that sending someone into exile seems completely out of frame with the process of impeachment. Another thing worth noting is that there's still a LOT of military activity running in the streets, there were people rioting as of a couple of hours ago and a curfew was sound for today and tomorrow by the de facto president. I live in a country that has seen both legal removals and military coups (Argentina), and this is nothing like the former ] (]) 02:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
==Developments==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
Tanks? Does Honduras even have any tanks? Do far all I've seen pics of are armoured cars.©] 21:20, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

:Typical mistake. I was saying they most likely had APCs or IFVs but after looking I'd say they mostly were armored cars. Similar mistakes are made there since they all have turrets of some kind mounted on top.--] (]) 21:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
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::]s from what I've seen.©] 22:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
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== External links modified ==

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I have just modified 55 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
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In the "Zelaya’s secret return to Honduras" section, this bit "assaulted the occupants of the embassy with toxic gases and radiation," ends with an archived link that doesn't seem to work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.38.126 (talk) 19:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

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