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== moving the medieval Konkani section coz of its irrevelance ==
==Citations==
Please do reffer ]


==Script Fight ==
Script Warriors please stay out!!!!


''The following section has very less to do with history of the language'''
We dont want people fighting over whiich script is native or which script should deserve the first place. Kannadigas and Marathis , please start a seperate web page to carry out your silly battles. Dont use Konkani as your playground
] 12:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)




==POV Discussions ==
===Role of Portugal and Portugese===
There is a definite tone of POV to this article, particularly the sentences "the present lack of any pre-Portuguese Konkani literature points to the unmerciful destruction of the Konkani heritage. That the language itself survives the more than 400 years of alien subjugation attests to the resilience of nomadic Konkani people." The first statement needs a citation, or at least a demosntration that konkani literature existed prior to the portuguese arrival, which the portugues destroyed. Describing portuguese as "alien" is a little odd, as it is the liturgical language of a significant section of the population, just as sanskrit is (a language, incidentally, also brought by invaders). It's obvious that the writer here has an anti-portuguese bias.


This era was marked by the invasion of Goa and subsequent exodus to Marhatta territory and ] (today's coastal Karnaraka) and Cochin.
So I am removing these sentences.


* Hindu exodus ( between 1312–1327 when General ] of the ] ] and ] destroyed] and the ]
* Hindu exodus subsequent to 1470 when the ] kingdom captured Goa, and subsequently in 1492 by Sultan ] of ]
*Hindu exodus due to ] and ] of Hindus by Portuguese ] and ] missionaries subsequent to 1500
*Hindu, Muslim and Neo-Catholic Christian exodus during the ] ordered by ] which was established in 1560 and abolished in 1812.


These events caused the Konkani language to evolve into multiple dialects. The exodus to coastal Karnataka and Kerala required Konkani speakers in these regions to learn the local languages and hence this caused penetration of local words into the dialects of Konkani spoken by these speakers. e.g. the word ''dār'' (door) gave way to the word ''bāgil'' .
]
The phoneme "a" in the Salcette dialect was replaced by the phoneme "o"


Other Konkani communities came into being with their own dialects of Konkani. The ] communities of ] and ] came about due to a mixture of intermarriage of Arab seafarers and locals as well as conversions of Hindus to Islam.<ref></ref>Another migrant community that picked up Konkani was the ] who were sailor-warriors from Ethiopia.<ref></ref>
===moved part of article===
I've moved the Konkani language section from the Konkani article here. This follows the pattern often used by other languages/peoples.] 16:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}
==English as language of Goan Catholics==
What is the source of the contention that English is a widely spoken language among Goan Catholics? To my knowldge Goan Catholics do not speak English in any greater proportions than other Indian communities. Goan Catholics (in Goa at least) speak Konkani as a primary languae, with sections of the upper classes speaking Potuguese. In fact, even the epithet for Goan Christians, ''Makapao'', comes from an alleged tendency to say "''Deva, maka pav''", which is an appeal to God in Konkani. The image of Goan Catholics speaking English as a first language is largely Bollywood derived. --] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


== 'Konkani', 'Maharashtrian Konkani' and 'Goan Konkani' ==
i am in complete agreement that there is no greater proportion of english speakers in goa, but is the article trying to say that there are more english medium schools than before and fewer portuguese ones?--] 02:29, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


]
I think it is probably beyond much doubt that English has overtaken Potuguese as the dominant ''foreign'' language in Goa, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that English has replaced the ''Konkani'' language among Goan Catholics, or any other demographic in Goa.
This is with regard to the classification of Konkani dialects. This has already been discussed ]. To summarise, the speakers of the ] and ] both call their respective tongues Konkani. For this reason, the names 'Maharashtrian Konkani' and 'Goan Konkani' are used to differentiate the two usages of the word Konkani. The dialects comprising Maharashtrian Konkani have collectively been assigned the ISO code ''knn'' while the rest of the Konkani dialects come under the ISO code gom. The languages with the ISO codes ''knn'' and ''gom'' are grouped together under the Konkani macrolanguage with ISO code ''kok''. However the term 'Goan Konkani' being used to refer to the non-maharashtrian dialects is misleading and indeed a misnomer because the dialects under the ISO code ''kok'' are not confined to the territory of the state of ] (eg. Mangalorean and Malvani) and in common parlance, Goan Konkani is understood to be the dialects spoken in the geographical area of Goa (eg. Antruz, Saxtti and Bardeskari). This classification is shown in the image. Hence, 'Goan Konkani' should be used carefully, and as far as possible should be avoided when referring collectively to the non-maharashtrian dialects.
--] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 09:09, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
] (]) 22:16, 9 April 2012 (UTC)


Konkani ] (]) 08:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
== Konakani and Marathi. ==


== Austroasiatic? Or DravidiaN? ==
Konkani is an dialect of Marathi.I dont why Konkani people are denying the fact? {{unsigned |Mahawiki}}


The current article text contains:
While your comment seems a little inflammatory, as a native speaker, I am still moved to say Konkani is a difficult to place linguistically either an ancestor of Marathi, an offshoot of Marathi that is now a separate language or a cousin of Marathi.--] 23:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)


"The substratum of the Konkani language lies in the speech of Austroasiatic tribes called Kurukh, Oraon, and Kukni,"
:I agree that the comment is inflammatory, and now it has also been included in the introductory paragraph (by Mahawiki). Mahawiki, do you have citations or sources for your claim? If yes, please refer to them in the article. Since there appears to be no concensus on the relationship between M and K, I have placed a neutral sentence in the Intro paragraph (basically a rewording og 964267sr's statement). If there is better information available, please cite and modify my change. But please discuss here. Regards, ] 08:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


When I looked up Kurukh and Oraon (on Misplaced Pages), they were mentioned as being Dravidian. That is something different from Austroasiatic. Did something go wrong?] (]) 23:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
hello ... I have this up for submission. ]


== Move discussion in progress ==
// the text in this submission was deleted because of two reasons:
1. It is too long and winding, not to the pint
2. The article in itself could be copyrght material
] should provide a link to the oringinal text and state his points
from http://www.gsbkerala.com/gsbkerala.htm


There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:Konkani (disambiguation)#Requested move 5 June 2024 crosspost --> —] 09:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
regards ]

It would be an improvement if someone could get some textbooks out and tell us what the different views about Konkani's position in the family of languages is, who said what, what the evidence is as they present it, and let the reader decide which scholar is more sensible, rather than us putting the words in. Certainly it is in dispute, or seems to be. Thanks, ''']''' <nowiki>|</nowiki> ] 03:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC).

== Konkani and Marathi ==

Konkani is a dialect of Marathi.According to linguist Griarson,on the basis of peculirity of sounds, grammatical processes, vocablary,Konkani is a dialect of Marathi.(Source: Marathi Vishwakosh-Khand 12,(Pg.1197) Publisher:Maharashtra Rajya Vishwakosh Nirmiti Mandal,Mumbai.A project funded by Govt. Of India and Govt. of Maharashtra)

Konkani is recognised as a seperate language due to dirty politics played by Konkani (and few Kannadi)politicians .Denying Marathi-Konkani relation is like disowning ur own parent.Nevertheless this doesnt change the history.Konkani remains as sweet and lovable for us as it was before.

It seems the article perhaps has metions of 'my POV'.So I am not exactly unhappy with this article.] 05:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
:: So POV is good as long as it is yours?''']''' <nowiki>|</nowiki> ] 05:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:Well, it is important to have info to explain how langauages are related to other languages - you should put this in from your book? and also explain why the other people think it is not without putting in POV like Karnataka politics in there. This is about an academic debate not a political classifcation. ''']''' <nowiki>|</nowiki> ] 05:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

:By my POV i mean what I belive is true.And its a fact that the feud between Marathi and Konkani has been created by kannada leaders. ] 12:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty irresponsible to say that Konkani is a dialect. Especially if one can clearly see that the two have differect grammar systems. Any similarity can easily be attributed to the fact that both are language evolved from Sanskrit. Just because one can understand one language because of knowledge of the other does not justify it a language to be considered to be a dialect. If such were the case Gujrati or Marathi could be considered a dialect of the other, the same goes for in Europe with Portuguese and Spanish. If gaining National Language status helps preserve this unique "dialect" as some would like to call it, so be it, it would at the very least ensure the continued use of it and would prevent speakers from "reverting" to the "mainstream". I would like to add another point, is the fact that Konkani people fleeing the persecution during the Goa Inquisitions chose to move to Southern Canara with a foreign language, instead of emigrating to Maharashtra, which would not have been the case if indeed the Konkani was just a dialect.
:] 04:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


One has to just see ]'s profile to know that he is just here to push his own political beliefs and lingusitic jingoism! Do we really need to discus his points when he has stated for himself that he is here just to push a pro-Marathi and pro-Maharashtra stance. Let me phrase his own line:" Maharashtra or Marathi cannot be defamed by wikipedia and just because some nonsense is written here"

As far as the simmilarity is concerned it depends on the dialect. A Marathi speaker may undestand Malvani or Goan saraswat Konkani somewhat easily, but will be at a loss when he/she tries to understand Chitrapur Saraswat Konkani. ] may sound very similar to Marathi because it's speakers have been bilingual for 300-400 years, thus enabling Marathi influences. Konkani speakers in Karnataka frequently borrow Tulu and Kannada words(even the accents are affected). Does that mean that Konkani is a dialect of Tulu or Kannada??

Will Marathis agree to call Marathi as a dialect of Hindi simply becasue a Hindi speaker can easily understand Marathi?

Another thing, this "Konkani is a dialect of Marathi" line has not come out of any love that Marathis have for Konkani. It is only used to delude themselves that Goa and Konkani speaking areas of Karnataka (such as Karwar ) are theirs by virtue of a vague resemblance in the languages.

The following link should end the debate:

http://www.rajbhasha.gov.in/8thschedulehin.pdf

Why bother what Marathis think about Konkani when the constituion of India itself recognises Konkani as a distinct lanuage??

] 04:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

------------------
Came accross ]] himself!!!
"Revision as of 05:35, 25 October 2006 Mahawiki

m ('''Konkani is a independent language'''.Its transliteration in either language is unacceptable.Article has mentions of Konkani being written in Nagari and Kannada script.)"

How come Mahawiki suddenly decided that Konkani was an Independent language???
] 08:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== Possible inconsistency ==
If the third wave of influence dates to 1683-1740, does it predate the first wave? ] 17:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

== Konkani and Kannada script ==

As source which had been cited before some editors removed it shows, the Kannada script is used by Konkani speaking people in ]. And the biggest population of Konkanis anywhere in the world is in ]. Konkanis in Karnataka outnumber Konakanis in ] 3 to 1. Also the Konkanis of Goa use both Roman and Nagari scripts while the Konkanis in Karnataka use only Kannada script. So I request the admins to unprotect the page or atleast put it back themselves. ] 08:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

:Kannada script is '''not''' the main or official script of Konkani. nagari is used more extensively by Konkanis in Maharashtra and Goa.While Roman Malayalam and Naskh are also used.There's is no need to include each and every script.Nagari transliteration is enough.
] 09:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Does Mahawiki know anything about Karnataka apart from Belgaum???Who gave hiom the right to speak on behalf of Konkanis?? It may not be Kannada script may not be the official script , but it is THE MOST WIDELY USED script in Konkani. Ask any Konkani from Canara coast!

] 04:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
::Maharashtra and Goa are not the only places where Konkani is spoken. There are more konkani speakers in Karnataka than in Goa, who use Kannada script for writing Konkani. Karnataka is also the only state, which has a Konkani sahitya academy to promote konkani literature. Most of the Konkani literature coming out of Karnataka is in Kannada script. All these facts are substantiated by the references added. ] 09:25, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

:::If someone intends to do their original research and bag nobel by claiming "Kannada is not the main script for Konkani" withour proper citations, they are most encouraged to do so in the upcoming Konkani Sahitya conference and not here. "Karnataka Konkani Sahitya Academy"(only state which has an academy for Konkani literature) has adopted Kannada as the official script for Konkani in Karnataka where there are more number of Konkani speakers than Goa. in Konkani world precisely explains the issue.] 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

== External Links ==

Please understand that the External links column is meant to provide relevant sources for academic interest, not chat groups or personal home pages

I had removed many such links , keeping only those which I felt were necessary. But it seems that some users are already putting them back. I will not revert them to prevent an editing war, but I advice discretion on behalf of Konkani Wikipeians

Kindly read the Misplaced Pages rules before doing so.

] 10:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

== Konkani Misplaced Pages ==

Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Misplaced Pages has been started and been in test stage since August 2006

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones

We would like to get more articles/templates in place.
We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -] 05:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

== Article needs rewowrking ==

I appreciate the efforts made by ] but I feel it has gone off the point, simply to keep neutrality. It tends to give a wrong impression that a lot of people (implying even Konkanis) doubt Konkanis status as an independent language. Matter of Fact: only Marathis (that too not all) treat Konkani as a dialect of Marathi. At the most pessimistic, I will hazard a guess that not more than 10% of Konkanis agree.

Secondly with a lot of edits to the Konkani v/s Marathi Section , it seems to appear the the entire Konkani Language article is only about the Konkani v/s Marathi feud. Please shorten it to a single Paragraph of not more than 5-6 lines.

I propose to put a seperate article on "The History of Konkani Language " which will provide a detailed
history and can have a very lengthy discussion on Konkani v/s Marathi. Lets keep the present article as it is now.Once the History article is in place ( I have completed it halfway and will put it up in a couple of days), keep only relevant facts in the main article on Konkani Language.--] 07:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:I agree. That Konkani is a dialect of Marathi is a crank theory and should be treated as such. It is a theory that finds no support from linguists. That said, we certainly should mention it, but spending more than 3-4 lines to explain it is definitely overkill. ] 07:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the so-called theory is widely accepted in Maharashtra (amongst the Marathis and Konkanis) and many linguists have supported it. Morever try to understand the fact that Konkani is not sole property of Goa. I wonder Dnyaneshwari being in Konkani and other 'crank throries' shall also find place here! ] 11:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

w.r.t Maharashtraexpress
1. Does the fact that the theory finds acceptance wide acceptance in Maharashtra (most of whome may never have heard a word of Konkani)weigh more than a long established belief among Konkanis?

2. Even if we assume that all Konkanis in Maharshtra treat Konkani as a dialect of Marathi(which I doubt!) do their number overrun the opinion of other Konkanis?
Let me place the numbers as per the 1991 census:
'''of the 17,60,607 Konkani speakers in India 6,02,626 are in Goa, 7,06,397 in Karnataka, 3,12,618 in Maharashtra and 64,008 in Kerala '''
Now do the math.

2. How many linguists? Are you aware that the Sahitya Akademi had put the issue in front of a neutral panel in 1975 which accepted Konkani as an independent language.

3. Correct Konkani is not Goa's property. Konkani is nobody's property . We don't own Konkani. We belong to Konkani, aamchem maaimbhas!

4. Where is Dyaneshwari mentioned in this article?

--] 12:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

::Hello Deepak,<br/>
::Thank you for your comments. My purpose behind rewriting that section was that it had become a little too wayward, and wasn't being faithful to the source that it quoted. I realize that my changes might have become somewhat verbose in the process. However, my efforts were aimed at not losing sight of what the cited source says and to be neutral at the same time.

::Of course, my edits are, in no way, ideal. Could you tell me which part of the section is off-track and gives a wrong impression that even Konkanis doubt the status of Konkani? If you give me your feedback, I can tell you why I wrote that particular sentence and we can work from there to make it better.

::Coming to why this section looks bigger than the rest, the reason is simply that no one has added much information about Konkani grammar, vocabulary, phonology and other technical linguistic details. If info about these aspects of the language is added, it will make the article much more robust and readable, and perhaps then the Konkani-Marathi section won't look that bloated. That said, I am inclined to agree that if we have a separate article about the history of Konkani, we can leave the crux of the matter from the Konkani-Marathi section here and explain the finer details in the new article.

::A final word. I think there's a lot of material out there that documents the relationship between these two languages. While reading , I felt that it provided a wealth of information and further references regarding the history of the language and its journey to date. Although Konkani has now been certified by many linguistic scholars as an independent language and Konkanis are more aware about their language than in the past, there has been some notable and significant history between itself and Marathi. It would not do justice to the spirit of Misplaced Pages to dismiss or cut out this information due to personal prejudices.

::Thanks, <font face="Verdana"><b>]</b> <sup> - ]</sup></font> 14:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If u dont want to acknowledge those who dont think Konkani is a language so be it. FYI the Konkanis in Maharashtra report themselves as Maharashtrians (and language as Marathi). Since u r in Maharashtra,u will perhaps understand it sometime later. Anyways i shall not disturb u guys again. Hope u will give justice to this article. ] 14:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, 3,12,618 is quite a sizeable number to deserve a mention,no? ] 14:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:I don't like the heading of that section at the first place. What does Konkani vs Marathi mean? Is there a war between two languages? A heading like "Konkani and Marathi controversy" or something like that would sound apt. ] 16:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

== Konkani name in Kannada script ==

I noticed this difference between ಕೊಂಕಣಿ and ಕೊಂಕ್ಣಿ only yesterday, while reading a leaflet from a Konkani cassete. But it is true. Blame it on the fact that I had not studied Kannada.

ATleast among Mangalorean Christians it is spellt as KomkNi not as kom-ka-Ni with a half ka and Na.
The fist thing I did was phone my parents and ask them, they have confimed it.
And for as long as i can remember , we always said KoMkni , not Konkani or KonkaNI

Another thing is that whle writing in Devanagiri a long "ii" is used (कोंकणी)while in Kannada script short "i" ("कोंक्णि" not कोंक्णी)is used.

Perhaps some people may be aware that in Maharashtra the language is reffered to as ko-ka-nii, not koM-ka-Ni
I would like to know if other dialects in Karnataka such as GSB spell it differently

One of the many mysteries of Konkani. With such diverse styles ,scripts and dailects, even the name is spellt differently.

I am looking for online resources to confirm it.
--] 05:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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moving the medieval Konkani section coz of its irrevelance

The following section has very less to do with history of the language'


This era was marked by the invasion of Goa and subsequent exodus to Marhatta territory and Canara (today's coastal Karnaraka) and Cochin.

These events caused the Konkani language to evolve into multiple dialects. The exodus to coastal Karnataka and Kerala required Konkani speakers in these regions to learn the local languages and hence this caused penetration of local words into the dialects of Konkani spoken by these speakers. e.g. the word dār (door) gave way to the word bāgil . The phoneme "a" in the Salcette dialect was replaced by the phoneme "o"

Other Konkani communities came into being with their own dialects of Konkani. The Konkani Muslim communities of Ratnagiri and Bhatkal came about due to a mixture of intermarriage of Arab seafarers and locals as well as conversions of Hindus to Islam.Another migrant community that picked up Konkani was the Siddis who were sailor-warriors from Ethiopia.

References

  1. Konkani History
  2. People of India –Siddis

'Konkani', 'Maharashtrian Konkani' and 'Goan Konkani'

Venn diagram of the Konkani language family

This is with regard to the classification of Konkani dialects. This has already been discussed earlier. To summarise, the speakers of the Konkani dialects of Maharashtra and the Konkani language both call their respective tongues Konkani. For this reason, the names 'Maharashtrian Konkani' and 'Goan Konkani' are used to differentiate the two usages of the word Konkani. The dialects comprising Maharashtrian Konkani have collectively been assigned the ISO code knn while the rest of the Konkani dialects come under the ISO code gom. The languages with the ISO codes knn and gom are grouped together under the Konkani macrolanguage with ISO code kok. However the term 'Goan Konkani' being used to refer to the non-maharashtrian dialects is misleading and indeed a misnomer because the dialects under the ISO code kok are not confined to the territory of the state of Goa (eg. Mangalorean and Malvani) and in common parlance, Goan Konkani is understood to be the dialects spoken in the geographical area of Goa (eg. Antruz, Saxtti and Bardeskari). This classification is shown in the image. Hence, 'Goan Konkani' should be used carefully, and as far as possible should be avoided when referring collectively to the non-maharashtrian dialects. The Discoverer (talk) 22:16, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Konkani Bhagban sahoo (talk) 08:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Austroasiatic? Or DravidiaN?

The current article text contains:

"The substratum of the Konkani language lies in the speech of Austroasiatic tribes called Kurukh, Oraon, and Kukni,"

When I looked up Kurukh and Oraon (on Misplaced Pages), they were mentioned as being Dravidian. That is something different from Austroasiatic. Did something go wrong?Redav (talk) 23:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Konkani (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:35, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

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