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| ==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== | |||
| {{Auto archiving notice|bot=MiszaBot I|age=90|small=no|dounreplied=yes}} | |||
| ] This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. | |||
| == Original Research == | |||
| Huge segments of this article are interpretations of Latuff's art by editors (referenced to primary sources linking to Latuff's art). The interpretations are often negative and followed by labeling the cartoonist as "anti-American" or "antisemitic". This seems like a clear violation of both OR and BLP. I propose we remove these. Also the text contains a large volume claims of antisemitism by people who are not notable. Are these not against BLP and NOTE? ] (]) 23:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC) | |||
| : You are correct. // ] (]) | |||
| :: Someone should correct it, tbh. When it comes to NPOV, this article is somewhat of a "joke". ] (]) 20:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Agreed. ] (]) 01:06, 1 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == POV == | |||
| Also, when it says he depicts characters like former brazilian president Lula as either a monster or a nazi, in the same level he depicts Bush or Blair - this is simply not true. His criticism about Lula is of a different nature. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 22:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| Guys, this article is not balanced at all. Reading it makes it seem like he is almost a self-professed Jew hater, which I don't think is quite accurate. ] (]) 19:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, you sound like an extremely naive ultra-leftist. This article is indeed biased, but for the opposite reason: it makes him seem like he is only anti-Israel, but the truth is that he is extremely anti-Semitic and advocates the genocide of Jews from the Land of Israel. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ::Latuff has never attacked the Jews as a people, nor has he advocated "genocide" or even reversal of Jewish settlement since 1948 outside of the current occupied territories. Inserting these erroneous views into an article is a violation of NPOV as well as BLP. I would agree with Pikolas that the article as it stands is barely acceptable on these grounds anyway. ] (]) 06:01, 13 January 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I agree with ]. This article is not balanced at all, and you do not need to be a "naive ultra-leftist" to see that. The only requirement is that you are not a party to the dispute or a person with strong opinions regarding the issue at hand. For the articles development, outbursts like "naive ultra-leftist" should be avoided. However, I guess all can agree on that such a statement says more about the political bias of the "proclamer". Regards, ] (]) 15:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I don't know about whether you guys are "extremely naive ultra-leftists" or not, but the guy is clearly a vicious antisemite whose cartoons wouldn't be out of place in the ]. It might help if you guys read WP's articles on ], ], and ]. Cheers. ] (]) 08:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Not everyone criticizing Isreal is anti-semitic. Latuff is sometimes a bit over the top with his cartoons but nothing that would justify such a classification. --] (]) 08:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ==Image reinforcing bias== | |||
| I know Latuff authored ], however, the article is already very biased towards his accusations of antisemitism (in violation of ]), and that cartoon only reinforces that bias. In my opinion we should use a less controversial image, like ] (which also serves to illustrate better his themes, i.e. the Palestinian conflict). Let's please reach some sort of consensus before engaging in fruitless edit wars. ] (]) 06:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, let's face it: a) it was a drawing by Latuff, b) Latuff ''IS'' controversial for drawings like these and c)he is more known for being anti-Israel than being pro-Palestine. | |||
| :To give some evidence: when I search “Latuff Palestine” on Google, I get 225.000 results. However, if I search “Latuff Israel”, I get 413.000 results. Thus, your idea of Latuff as a non-controversial artist of Palestinian children is quite wrong. I’m afraid you are violating the ]-rule this way. Regards, ] (]) 07:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::To be clear, my reasoning is not emotional on this topic, I am neither a Jew nor an Arab, so justdontlikeit (which is not a rule, but an essay) doesn't apply to my argument, which is essentially rational. Also, your third point is questionable. Where is he better known as anti-Israel? Anglophone media, for sure, as Portuguese media doesn't portray him as an antisemite at all. That's bias, uncompatible with an encyclopedia that purports to be universal. Google searching isn't exactly science either. | |||
| ::All in all, what I mean to say is that 1) hell yes, he's controversial 2) yes, he did draw up polemic cartoons 3) from an objetive perspective, the cartoon serves to illustrate his "controversialness". ''However'', the article is already pretty biased, and on a subjective level, the image only reinforces that view on the reader. ] (]) 17:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Just like you, I’m not jewish or Arabic. However, I fail to see how the quality of someone’s opinion on this article needs to be based on ethnicity. Having said that, it is preferable to have a picture in an article that supports it. As you are saying above, the Gaza Boat –image reinforces the article. And that is what images should do in an encyclopedic article. | |||
| :::As for the google-search: whether you use the English “Palestine” or the Portugese “Palestina” in the search: the number of results stay the same. So much for being universal. If you find some ] which proves otherwise, I’ll be happy to read it. | |||
| :::Finally: if you think that the article is biased… well, nobody stops you from editing it in a way that you consider to be better. But then again, since we agree that he ''is'' controversial, I doubt my proposed image will be out of place. Regards,] (]) 10:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| It is undisputed that the cartoon is drawn by Latuff, and that he is well known for such drawings. If the implications of those facts are unflattering to Latuff, then perhaps he should rethink what he draws, but it is not a blp violation to show latuff's work on latuff's article. Both images are appropriately licensed. Use them both, but there is certainly no policy based reason to exclude the ship image. (Consensus could certainly choose to exclude it, but thus far there does not seem to be such). ] (]) 14:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Context is important. If the article insinuates that he's antisemitic, then displaying images out of context could be used to reinforce these accusations. I'd rather see some kind of critical reception and sourced commentary on his work, rather than just throwing a bunch of controversial, politically incorrect images on the page and guiding readers to a certain viewpoint. ] (]) 01:40, 1 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't see a real problem with the image in question. It appears to be representative of the artist's work, and it doesn't look at all anti-Semitic—just anti-Israel. There's certainly no BLP violation involved. And personally, I'm not a fan of the Bombman.gif image. Maybe the broken English was intentional, but it doesn't reflect particularly well on him either way. --] (]) 18:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::The RfC is over for two weeks, and I think that the consensus is more on my side for reinserting the picture. Moreover, the article isn't edited in such a way that the boat-image would be out of place by now. I think it is safe to put the boat-picture back. Regards.] (]) 20:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :: The octopus is a traditional symbol in anti-Semitic literature; see ] and ] for a couple examples. talks about the octopus's negative connotations even in contexts distant from the Jews.--] (]) 20:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::I certainly don't disagree that the octopus has antisemetic overtones. Not sure what your argument was (include or don't include?) Certainly latuff has been acused of anti-semitism, and his use of traditional anti-semetic imagery is relevant to the sources that are discussing such allegations. ] (]) 20:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == The Predictable and Tired Old "Alleged Anti-Semitism" Section == | |||
| Anytime you read an article in Misplaced Pages about someone sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, there is always a 'Alleged Anti-Semitism' section, which repeats the same tired and generally false slanders against whoever the article is about. In this piece, as usual, it's just a propaganda technique by the pro-Israel side, with pretty thin evidence. I vote we just remove the whole section, or at least cut it down to a couple of pro-and anti-sentences, without a subhead. ] (]) 17:09, 28 March 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *I agree wholeheartedly with your argument, but as you can see in this talk page, even raising concerns about the flagrant POV can lead to heated discussions. I would suggest expanding other sections to reduce the weight of the accusations against him, which are currently disproportionately large in the article. ] (]) 22:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :If you don't see how depicting Jews as inhuman monsters who drink the blood of Palestinian babies and wear Nazi uniforms is anti-semitic you are either in denial or have no idea what anti-semitism is.] (]) 16:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :It really doesn't matter if the accusation is right or wrong The accusation (and counterarguments) have been discussed in many reliable sources and are certainly a notable part of Latuff's career and reputation. It falls very clearly under ] ] (]) 17:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :: And ] then? // ] (]) | |||
| :So ] has got a point in that the section in question further detracts from the already pretty low quality of this article. So I've just fucking got rid of it. If any of you ]] don't like it, then do a proper job of putting together a semi-coherent section that doesn't read like it's been blurted out by a spoilt prat in a hissy fit. | |||
| We have a detailed section on allegations of antisemitism, sourced to high quality sources (Stephen Roth Institute, Kotek, AKdH) . The lead should summarize the article, and include mention of this, with a statement the Latuff himself disputes the claim. There is no BLP issue here. ] (]) 00:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :These are rotten activist sources, who generally find *anyone* critical of Israel "anti-semitic". At the same time, we know that A: the finances activist sources are often murky, B: Israel is actively supporting pro-Israeli "Hasbara" editing. Make you own conclusion. At the same time, independent Jewish sources, like the Forward, clearly states that Carlos Latuff is ''not'' anti-semitic: who do you place in the lead: rrrrrrrright, the "activist" sources. This is a clear ]-violation, and I´m talking it to that board, ] (]) 21:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, because socialist newspapers are always neutral on the question of Israel? This is what Latuff is known for. its not a BLP concern to repeat what is WIDELY reported in reliable sources, and the bias of those reliable sources is not an issue, straight from the policy. We ] and ]. ] (]) 21:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::"WIDELY reported in reliable sources", yet only purely activist sources like ], ] and ] are used in the article? And I would assume ] would be as concerned about anti-semitism as anyone, after all, that is basically the definition of it: that it hits ''each and every'' Jew, not only those with certain opinions. ] (]) 21:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Do you have the faintest idea what the ] is? Click on the article and read. If after reading you still think it is a "rotten activist source", then let me suggest you are not fit to be editing in this topic area. ] (]) 22:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :I´m basically interested in *one* thing here, and that is: ''who'' funds them? Wouldn´t that be convenient for those who rule in Israel, if all who criticise Israel were called anti-semites? ] (]) 22:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Let me repeat, since you apparently didn't bother to read what I wrote: Read the ] article. If, after reading it , you still think it is a "rotten activist source", then let me suggest you are not fit to be editing in this topic area, and I will probably take action to see to it that you don't. ] (]) 23:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::On *this* issue is it. On other issues, it might be different. And I´m soooooo sick of these threats "not fit to be editing in this topic area, and I will probably take action to see to it that you don't" etc. Either report me, or just shut up. ] (]) 23:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Expect to see yourself at AE in the upcoming weeks. Someone who thinks that an academic institution that is a research organ of one of the world's top 200 universities, which is focused on research of antisemitism is a "rotten activist source" on topics of antisemitism either does not understand wikipedia's policy on reliable sources well enough to be editing, period, or possibly worse, understands it well enough, but knowingly violates it when it comes to a specific topic because she wants to push a POV, in which case she should be topic banned. It will probably take me a few days to put together an AE case. Adios. ] (]) 23:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The ] seems(*) wp:rs to me but what does it say about Latuff ? In the article we can find 2 links dated back from 2003 and this doesn't concern particularly controversial problems. If the ] didn't publish anything any more about Latuff, that would mean they abandonned their charges against him. | |||
| :::::(*) Seems... Because it should be analysed what , a President of the United States in activity has to deal with academic researches on antisemitism... | |||
| :::::] (]) 03:17, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The title of this section is extremely offensive. Allegations of anti-Semitism are serious allegations. I have changed it to allegations of Racism since anti-Semitism is a form of racism. | |||
| It is hard to be civil in talking to racists and I expect them to be civil back.] (]) 13:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :Restored section title. Do you have anything constructive to write about or is this just an attempt to heat-up the discussion? --] (]) 13:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)}} | |||
| == RFC : Should the antisemitism bit be mentioned in the lede == | |||
| == Excessive external links == | |||
| We now have five links in the external links section. As per ], this is excessive. See ]: {{tq|Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. However, Misplaced Pages does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Misplaced Pages does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.}} Can we choose which one or two to include and delete the others? | |||
| {{rfc|pol|hist|reli|soc|bio|media|rfcid=4880B22}} | |||
| :A Google search yields this article as the first result at the twitter page as the second, so I guess it is the most popular official link. ]]] 20:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC) | |||
| '''Should the statement that some of Latuff's cartoons have been called antisemetic be included in the lede''' | |||
| == Cuckolding fetish == | |||
| ===Survey=== | |||
| * '''include''' ] and ]. These are well sourced allegations, covered in detail in the body of the article. The lead should serve as a mini-article and cover all major controversies. ] (]) 15:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''don't include''' per ] and ]. ] (]) 20:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''don't include''' pr Pikolas, ] (]) 21:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''include''' The accusations of antisemitism against Latuff's cartoons are a major issue in this article. The ] exists to summarize essential facts (including controversies).--] (]) 02:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''don't include''' Per ] it should be reported (as a controversy, not a fact) according to the material in the article. But the material in the article should before be challenged. Half can be immediately removed because it reports false information, is not from wp:rs or is not linked with Latuff's alleged's antisemitism. Then the attacks should be put in the context of the propaganda war in which any virulent opponent to Irael's policy, such as Latuff, is attacked for antisemitism. Given the huge controversy around this, compliance with ] is more important from my point of view and should be predominant. ] (]) 04:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Include''' per V and LEAD, his alleged antisemitism is widely reported and appears in this article. The lead should summarize the body. It should naturally follow BLP in how it's worded, but BLP doesn't mean "no criticism of a living person". ] (]) 18:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Do not include''' any form of one-sided/biased form of this allegation. I believe the variant before revert and protection presented both sides and was rather neutral, in this form I would '''support inclusion'''. --] (]) 19:08, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Do not include''' As per ] and ]' observations. ] (]) 07:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''include'''. Latuff is well known for this. ] (]) 10:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Include'''. It is well supported by sources that antisemitism is allegedly one of the main themes of his works, it is covered in the article and the lead should summarize it. ]]] 06:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Include only if''' his repudiation of the charge is in the same sentence, i.e. 'Latuff's cartoons, which often use the analogy between the Holocaust and Palestinians, have been accused of/interpreted as/ anti-Semitism/antisemitic. Latuff has dismissed the charges as 'a strategy for discrediting' criticism of Israel.' I agree with ] It's a matter of ] and WP:NPOV. As No More Mr Nice Guy correctly states ] summarizes the article, and the article has a section on the accusations and his repudiation of them.] (]) 09:52, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Before anyone revert my edit, he actually has many cartoons about this topic. | |||
| ===Threaded discussion=== | |||
| https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632 | |||
| == Dubious information == | |||
| https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632 | |||
| I live in Belgium and I never heard about this : <nowiki>{{cite news |title=Report: Anti-Semitism Keystone of Belgian School Curriculum |date= September 18, 2013 |time=8:35 |url=http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/09/18/report-anti-semitism-keystone-of-belgian-school-curriculum/ |newspaper=Algemeiner.com}}</nowiki> whereas we have several organisations taking care of such problems. This would have "made the buzz". This source is not reliable and the information should be crossed by several other sources. ] (]) 03:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| etc <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {{od}}{{u|Pluto2012}} There are several other sources, apparently the story was originally broken by the belgian magazine "Joods Actueel" apparently the sep 2013 issue. Here are other sources covering it tho | |||
| :That's ] or borders vandalism --] (]) 09:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/184136/belgium-teachers-urged-to-compare-israel-to-nazi-g/ | |||
| ::Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) ] (]) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * http://www.timesofisrael.com/belgian-education-ministry-website-publishes-vicious-cartoon/ | |||
| :::this ref is worth nothing as your claim is not supported + its in a foreign language without translation. --] (]) 19:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * http://www.jta.org/2013/09/18/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/israel-compared-to-nazi-germany-on-belgian-education-ministrys-website | |||
| {{od}} Non english sources are allowed, but it is in bounds to ask for a translation of the relevant portion. ]. {{u|Azuizo}} Please provide a quote of the relevant section in both the original language and English. ] (]) 23:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| * and also pro-palestinian sources confirming the basic story (though obviously interpreting things differently) http://www.shoah.org.uk/2013/09/20/belgian-ministrys-fleeting-moments-of-truth-about-irahell/ | |||
| : I find it incredibly racist to say that Portuguese is a “foreign” language. ] (]) 20:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| The BCH published a letter in response to the incident, reprinted in english here http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3976/belgium-jew-hatred | |||
| ::you do know this ''is'' the ''English'' wiki right? ] (]) 21:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion == | |||
| I was unable to find the story on the joodsactueel site, but I don't speak the language, and their online archives apparently do not go back that far. ] (]) 03:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: | |||
| :I am not in Belgium and my connexion to the internet is poor so I cannot check by myself but none of these sources complies with ] and certainly not the ''magazine'' Joodsactueel which is totally unknown. | |||
| * ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2019-07-02T00:51:29.067344 | UsElections Obama Latuff.png --> | |||
| :We have plenty of official newspapers in Belgium : ] (fr), ] (fr), ] (nl), ] (nl), (ans many many others). A few weeks ago we have had 6 weeks controversy about a 2 hours BDS manifestation. There are strong associations fighting antisemitism. I can tell you that if students should have analysed such a drawing the days of the commemoration of the Holocaust with such a roleplaying exercise, that would have made a scandal. There is 95% that all this is just the usual propaganda of some ill minds. ] (]) 03:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 00:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have just found 1 WP:RS about the story : , and indeed the story is different. | |||
| ::This image was indeed published on a database website BeCement that gathers suggestions of lessons from the Flemish Goverment <u>but also from</u> anybody who wants to publish some. And this Cartoon was indeed posted by somebody unknown and had nothing to deal with the Official Flemish Government. the CCOJB Association complained about this officialy. It was removed immediately when the webmasters were informed. As usual, the important nuances are not reported in the Jewish and Israeli media. The attacks against the Flemish Government are not acceptable and the information is false. | |||
| ::This drawing and the information around this must be removed. ] (]) 04:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::"As usual" "the Jewish and Israeli media" can be and often are RS, as in this case both the Times of Israel and the Forward. You on the other hand are not RS and what you tell us about Belgium and the truthfulness of information printed in RS has no weight whatsoever. Interesting that you want the image removed. Did Latuf not draw it? ] (]) 05:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The fact that Latuf drew it is not the question. | |||
| :::: is wp:rs on this topic and the accusations reported by the other sources given here above are just false. | |||
| :::: ] (]) 07:54, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm sure you meant there's a controversy and we need to report what all RS said in an NPOV manner? I like how you keep repeating the "just false" thing as if you have some kind of firsthand knowledge here, or like it would matter even if you did. ] (]) 17:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::There is no controversy. The other sources LIE by omission. That is a perfect exemple of the fact that Jewish magazine and Israeli newspapers, even Times of Israel are NOT WP:RS and should be treated as such. ] (]) 14:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That kind of statement is a perfect example of something someone who shouldn't be editing this topic area would say. Too bad the admins here care nothing about the integrity of the encyclopedia. ] (]) 21:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::<br/> | |||
| ::::::Lots of RS have reported what turned out to be untrue. When that is established, then we don´t go on reporting those false stories. That 260 people were murdered in the Deir Yassin massacre is a good example: none of the "regulars" here would write that (even if there are hundreds of WP:RS which say so): we now know that number to be too high. I don´t read French, but I take Pluto´s word for the lavenir.net story, ] (]) 17:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::That's an awful comparison. It's not like historians dug into this case and came to a much supported conclusion. Pluto didn't like what he read in the "Jewish and Israeli media" and found something he likes more in a Belgian paper. Now he declares what's true and what's false. The only thing guiding him here is what he'd like to truth to be. ] (]) 17:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::The thing is, (and I´m sorry to say this) but the Israeli press often makes a distorted picture about countries in Europe, and our apparent massive anti-semitism. (Yes, I live in Europe, too) Look at this discussion: ], to get an understanding on how some of that looks from outside Israel/US: "crazy", "vile and conspirator", etc, ] (]) 18:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The thing is, (and I'm sorry to say this) but the European press often downplays the amount of anti-semitism in Europe. Tell me, have Jews been murdered recently in the country where you live, for being Jews (I can't remember in which Scandinavian country you live, but the odds are 3:1)? Do Jewish kindergartens need protection from violence in your city (if there even are any left)? Are there places where someone identifiable as a Jew can't walk without being molested near your house? You're the ones who don't understand how you look from the outside. And you glibly dismiss any concerns Jews might have about what's going on as "vile and conspirator". It's sad, really, but not surprising historically. | |||
| :::::::::But none of this is relevant here. The "Jewish and Israeli" press is considered RS here, like it or not. | |||
| :::::::::All that said, I just had a look and the caption on that image is not at all NPOV. It states as fact that it was used in primary education. It should say it was posted on a website used by the Belgian whatever, but they say it was in a user content generated area and was removed. Or something like that. ] (]) 18:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::::The caption of the image is just traditionnial propaganda bullshiet and should be treated as such. The image can remain. It was drawn by Latuf. ] (]) 14:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| *If you had read everything in the link above, you would have seen that it was actually the Jews of Norway who protested most strongly against what some Jerusalem-based people wrote about anti-semitism in Norway. And I have never, ''ever'' seen ms Anne Sender, the then elected leader of the Jewish community of Norway, as angry as when the Israeli ambassador to Norway played the role as a "spokesperson" for the Jews of Norway. The Jews of Scandinavia are *quite* capable of speaking for themselves, thank-you-very-much. What ''they'' say about anti-semitism in Scandinavia: now, *that* I will listen to, any day. What people in Jerusalem say about it: not so much. | |||
| *Back to the cartoon: I agree, that the caption should be changed "to posted in a user content generated area and was removed" etc. The question then remains: is this notable? To me it sounds extremely trivial? ] (]) 19:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::''They said'' it was in a user content generated area. That's their POV. The newspapers say it was on the site in general. That's their POV. NPOV requires we show both. I don't think it's trivial that this kind of crap gets to be displayed on a resource for teachers in Belgium. I think it's also a good example of the kind of cartoons Latuf produces and the controversy they generate, including when used by others. ] (]) 20:00, 21 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| == Stance on Russia-Ukraine war == | |||
| With the additional information from the new articles on this topic, I think we should change the way the material is presented. It is probably no longer correct to say that it was "featured in curriculum", which is sort of a ] against the Belgian educators (although ] is probably big enough to have this not be an issue). However, the revised version of events is further support that some of Latuff's Cartoons are considered antisemetic by many (including in this case the Belgian educators/website, who removed it when notified of it) ] (]) 14:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :It was indeed considered antisemitic but the idea that comparing Israel today to the Nazi regime would be antisemite is controversial and not shared by everybody. ] (]) 14:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Such discrepancy is handled by ] and ]. ] (]) 15:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::I agree with you. In the current situation, both points of view exist so it is a matter of ]. If the section is kept and/or developed and WP:CONSENUS considers WP:DUE WEIGHT is to keep all this, the picture could receive per WP:NPOV a caption such as : ''exemple of controversial cartoon by Latuff for which he is accused by some of antisemitism whereas other considers this accusation as part of the policy to attack for antisemitism virulent opponents to the policy of Israel'' (and as long as everything is sourced!). ] (]) 06:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree with the first half of that caption , but what source would you propose for the second half (that is specifically in the context of that cartoon, because otherwise its ] and ])? ] (]) 14:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Hi ]. I added at the end of my commentary : ''"as long as everything is sourced!"'' | |||
| :::::But if you read French, everything can be found . Around 10 scholars are given as reference to each of the point of view. Nevertheless it remains general and doesn't concner Latuff precisely. ] (]) 20:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} {{u|Pluto2012}} Thats exactly my point. I think we can find sourcing specifically about this cartoon of people saying it is antisemitic. I agree that the POV you are describing for the second half exists and is notable in general, but there are not sources applying that logic to the cartoon in question (or even as you say, even applied to Latuff), so for us to do it in that context would be ]. Latuff himself I believe made the argument, and we quote him in the response section, that may be as far as we can go on this particular issue. ] (]) 21:18, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{u|Gaijin42}} I share your mind. The new section with the answer of Latuff to the accusations of antisemitism against him seems to me to solve the whole issue. (Nb: I have removed the anti-Flemish comments from the 1st caption.) ] (]) 02:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: | |||
| :::::Even with proper sources it's too long for an image caption. There would be a section explaining everything better right by it.]]] 14:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The article clearly lacks any mentions of pro-russian sentiment shared by the subject. | |||
| ::::::"''the idea that comparing Israel today to the Nazi regime would be antisemite is controversial and not shared by everybody."'' Of course it is Antisemitism. It is another example for a criteria applied specifically against Israel (and indirectly against Jews) since it is not applied against the U.S. and NATO that bombed Serbia, against Russia with the brutal attack of Chechnya, or Sudan and south Sudan etc, although the situation there was much worst. ] (]) 17:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| Since 2014 he made several caricatures depicting Ukrainians in a dehumanizing way, | |||
| ::::::::Pluto is usually very well-informed on the discourse of this area. He has for several years edited as someone strongly committed to Zionism, as my archives will show ('right-wing pro-Israeli as I am for exemple' Archive 3 ). That doesn't stop him from calling a spade a spade as he sees things, case by case. It is extremely commonplace for institutional bodies like the IDF or other Jewish groups or individuals, even the state itself, to be dismissed as 'Nazis' by certain sectors of the settler movement. That kind of abuse of fellow Jews is normative in Hebron . I've read this dozens of times, duly reported in Israeli newspapers. use the same analogy. ], a highly distinguished rabbi and philosopher, made it three decades ago, perhaps popularizing the parallel (Shiri Tsur,] 1 October, 2010) states that: 'it turns out that IDF soldiers have been drawing such comparisons for years. Quietly, for themselves.' One could document this usage, execrable, inappropriate, or whatever you will, as current. Anyone who follows the discourse knows this, and anyone who sees how the same analogy, only if used outside of Israel by non-Jews, stirs a huge polemic about anti-Semitism can see that both the analogy, and the accusation of anti-Semitism are both being, as sadly is the case, abused by everyone. It is not intrinsically anti-Semitic because that would mean hundreds of highly respected Jews, who self-identify as Jews or Zionists or both, have employed it. It is only 'intrinsically antisemitic' in POV sources that wish to get the usage political leverage on everything regarding these identities, to forbid the liberty and irresponsibility of outsiders what is par for the course in infra-community discourse in Israel and the diaspora. The same double values are present in this thread, pretending not to know what I've documented above.] (]) 18:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| like this: | |||
| :::::::::That is a very long winded SOAPBOX with a conclusion along the lines of "why do only Black people get to call each other the N-word". Also, you sating Pluto is "strongly committed to Zionism" made me chuckle, although I suppose that from the vantage point of someone at your extreme end of anti-Zionism, someone who doesn't want the immediate destruction of the state of Israel might seem like a Zionist. ] (]) 19:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Predictable insults. Thanks for the reminder that defending anyone from liability to smearing is soapboxing.] (]) 19:54, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Of course what you did there is SOAPBOXing. The only one you were "defending from liability to smearing" is yourself. I do understand why this issue is close to your heart though. Including . The fact you thought it was true was amusing. The fact you compared it to a German leader's gesture towards victims of the Holocaust unsurprising, and related to this discussion. ] (]) 20:29, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Stop being puerile and illiterate, and personalizing everything. Let's ignore each other.] (]) 21:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| The algemeiner.com article quote gatestoneinstitute.org as a trusted source. I will therefore remove it. ] (]) 19:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :{{re|Visite fortuitement prolongée}} and are more reliable sources that give essentially the same information.]]] 20:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1504505076290891778 | |||
| {{re|WarKosign}} ] under the picture a caption stating that "It was offered as material for teachers training by the Education Ministry of the Flemish Region in Belgium", with . Please quote a sentence of stating that Carlos Latuff's cartoon "was offered as material for teachers training by the Education Ministry of the Flemish Region in Belgium". ] (]) 21:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| https://ms-my.facebook.com/internationalriot/photos/ukraine-antimaidan-euromaidanfrom-latuff-brasil/671544492901910/ | |||
| :{{re|Visite fortuitement prolongée}} First paragraph: "'''Belgian Education Ministry website offered an exercise for trainee teachers''' drawing comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany and '''featuring a vicious caricature.'''". Second paragraph: "The comparisons were available until recently on the KlasCement.be website, a major teaching resource '''offered to teachers in training by the Education Ministry of the Flemish Region'''". Do you find my rephrasing incorrect ? If anything I was concerned it's too close to the original. ]]] 06:23, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :: No quote supporting the sentence, then? Understood, I delete the sentence. ] (]) 19:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Which part of the sentence, in your opinion, lacks support ?]]] 20:03, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::: The middle, "by the Education Ministry". Do you see a difference between "An antisemitic sentence was offered to Misplaced Pages readers by somebody" and "An antisemitic sentence was offered to Misplaced Pages readers by the Wikimedia Foundation"? ] (]) 20:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I think it's pretty clear that it's the website which is offered by the Education Ministry. Or to use your (not great) example, "An antisemitic sentence was featured on wikipedia, a website offered by the Wikimedia Foundation". This is supported by the source. Feel free to suggest alternative wording, though. ] (]) 20:33, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I made I change there that should remove the implication that the Education Ministry was directly responsible for publishing the cartoon, rather than it was published on their website. Adding that they said it was in a user-generated content area should be the next step per NPOV. I don't have time to deal with the French source atm, so someone else please feel free. ] (]) 20:40, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Actually the source says specifically "'''Belgian Education Ministry website offered''' an exercise", but I don't mind the change. ]]] 20:54, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::: {{Ping|WarKosign}} Well, maybe my example was not obvious enough. Do you see a difference between "A wall of a building of the Israeli Ministry of Defense displayed a ]" and "The Israeli Ministry of Defense displayed a ]"? ] (]) 21:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| as an existential threat to Israel while picking ] from his family's former land on the other side, ] thus:'The soldiers “called on to distance themselves” from the fence before firing warning shots, “and after all efforts were exhausted,” fired toward the lower extremities of the suspect attempting to cut the fence and hit him, the IDF spokesperson said in a statement, adding that the suspect was evacuated to an Israeli hospital and died of his wounds.' Unfortunately for them, the Algeimeiner and dozens of other newspapers, a video exists, denying all of the reportorial hype. That is how reliable those kinds of sources are.] (]) 21:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :What do you mean by "those kinds of sources"? ] | |||
| (]) 21:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Monocular tabloids, like those cited, of course.] (]) 09:56, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Nice sidestep. Do you include Ma'an in that category? ] (]) 17:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I asked about this at . ] (]) 03:54, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| I, as a Ukrainian, find it offensive | |||
| :::-{{re|Nishidani}} The Nazis planned to kill 20 to 30 million Slavic people in order to colonize their territories with German settlers. (see ]). Hitler said that this slaughter won't be remembered , in similarity with the fate of the Armenian Genocide. To my knowledge, even the worst enemies of Israel does not claim that Israel has or had similar plans. The term "Nazi" is used against Israel (and indirectly against Jews) in order to illegitimate it. It is a very offending term. | |||
| :::- In my opinion, Israelis who curse other people using this term, should be punished severely. Unfortunately, The law enforcement and police here are weak and those extremist settlers are prospering, extracting the tax payer money who mostly does not want to finance them. We, all Israelis, Arabs and Jews, suffer because of the lack of law enforcement. e.g Some peaceful Arab villages close to Tel Aviv became a heaven for Mafia and criminals, with occasional shooting in mid day. | |||
| :::- "''Pluto ... has for several years edited as someone strongly committed to Zionism."'' If he is a Zionist, than why he repeatedly deleted ( while breaching Misplaced Pages rules) the well supported text that the Arabs started the 1948 war. e.g. "''The Palestinians launched a campaign of violence to frustrate partition and Palestine was engulfed by a civil war ...The Palestinian attack on the Jews provoked the civil war..."'' (Woods-Shlaim1996p219) ] (]) 17:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Pluto is not a Zionist and people like Nishidani know exactly why the comparison is wrong. That's why they use it so much. The purpose is to hurt and insult people, not to draw a legitimate comparison between two events. You really shouldn't waste your time. Remember the Bullshit Asymmetry Law: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it. ] (]) 17:35, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| :::Whether the comparison is right or wrong is wholly irrelevant. As editors we are not supposed to be judging the truth of these statements. It's not our job. In any case, one final word. | |||
| :::As I have noted on Ykantor's page, Israeli political rhetoric is full of this abuse of the Nazi+''them'' analogy, most recently with Iran, but often with Palestinians. I don't think it a persuasive argument to assert that (A) can make a negative analogy of the type X = Y, but if a cartoonist makes a caricature implying Y=A, he is a deadly enemy of A. | |||
| :::Let me illustrate. The '''Palestinian =Nazi equation/analogy''' is diffuse, and bruited about insistently. | |||
| :::To use your own words, that is bullshit logic, conceding a right to an analogy to some while denying the use of that analogy to others. | |||
| :::, analyzing this mindset (Begin cornering Arafat in his Beirut bunker thought of him as like Hitler, etc) | |||
| :::<blockquote>. </blockquote> | |||
| :::In layman's words, the Palestinian=Nazi analogy worries no one. If a cartoonist, familiar with that, reminds those who see nothing obnoxious in '''that''' analogy that it can be turned on its head, rage erupts. | |||
| :::This in any case is not the place to judge the rights and wrongs of Latuff's analogy: we should simply state he makes it, that he is attacked for it as anti-Semitic, and repudiates the accusation. It's a very simple NPOV call.] (]) 18:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::::"Why do Black people call each other the N-word but when I do I'm called a racist?" ] (]) 18:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| He oftentimes dubbs the Russian narrative about "all Ukrainians are nazis", examples: | |||
| == Averysoda again == | |||
| https://www.irancartoon.com/site/media/zartists/75a4d29f877cd51c3aba2fb049b8611b/carlos-latuff-26.jpg | |||
| My edit could have been tweaked an improved, certainly. Your edit has screwed up the passage. | |||
| https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1181257040913686528 | |||
| From what the subject posts in social media, his Iran-China-Russia bias is obvious, and it should be pointed out in the article. ] (]) 21:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC) | |||
| This elided my words in the following way: | |||
| <s>Holocaust survivors in Israel like ] have drawn an analogy </s>between the Jews in the Holocaust and suffering at the hands of the IDF among Palestinians:<s> cartoonists work by such metaphors.</s> | |||
| :*'''Point 1'''. Your edit created a nonsensical sentence, leaving this garbage, which is not in the source (i.e. elimninating what you said was ] you introduced the same by the back door. Namely, | |||
| :<blockquote>He said that cartoonists work by metaphors and analogies between the Jews in the Holocaust and suffering at the hands of the IDF among Palestinians.</blockquote> | |||
| :To use your words, that is not in the source. It is nonsense to say that ‘cartoonists’ base their work on that analogy. The worlds cartoonists do not pass their lives thinking exclusively of this connection- Walt Disney and Hanna Barbara studios don’t. This has notably deteriorated the quality of the text by an idiotic statement you attribute to Latuff by a thoughtless adjustment. | |||
| :Latuff said exactly the opposite. He said what a cartoonist does is no different from what people the world over do, make comparisons. You have neatly manipulated things to make out that IDF/Nazi analogies are something '''only cartoonists''' do. | |||
| :*'''Point 2'''.Second we are mentioning what Latuff quotes Lapid as saying: not what Lapid actually said. You checked for Lapid's statement, compared it with what Latuff said, and judged that Latuff misrepresented the Israeli politician. This is ] | |||
| :All you need have done is to attribute to Latuff the words regarding what he thought Lapid said. | |||
| :For the record Lapid was reported by the BBC as follows: | |||
| :<blockquote></blockquote> | |||
| :The BBC introduces this by introducing the reproduction of his remarks with the comment: | |||
| :<blockquote>The Israeli justice minister has infuriated cabinet colleagues by saying the army offensive in Gaza reminded him of his family's woes in World War II. </blockquote> | |||
| :Lapid hastened to backtrack of course, but both the BBC and Latuff make that point. Lapid's statement's context was an ] plan to reduce another 2,000 houses in Rafah to rubble. An image of an old woman foraging among the rubble of her home brought back an image in his mind of his mother at Auschwitz. | |||
| :'''Point 3'''. You asserted that the text I wrote, 'cartoonists work by such metaphors,' is ]. It isn't. The source states: | |||
| :<blockquote>Metaphors are the key point to political cartooning</blockquote> | |||
| :And my paraphrase, to avoid plagiarism was perfectly acceptable. | |||
| :I agree completely and it's a shame that it's not mentioned in the article. Do you know of any reliable sources so we can put it in? ] (]) 21:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Point 4'''. Latuff said in the interview: | |||
| :<blockquote>'Of course Israel isn’t building gas chambers in the West Bank, but surely we can find some similarities between the treatment given to Palestinians by the and the Jews under Nazi rule. Inaccurate or not, it’s important to highlight that such comparisons have been made worldwide not only by cartoonists, but by people such as Yosef “Tommy” Lapid, Ariel Sharon’s former justice minister and a Holocaust survivor (deceased in June of 2008). He said in 2004, during an interview, that a photo of an elderly Palestinian woman searching through rubble reminded him of his grandmother who died in Auschwitz. For me, this is more painful than comparisons of how Palestinians live under Israeli occupation. </blockquote> | |||
| :That is easily rewritten as | |||
| :<blockquote>Latuff stated that similarities can be found between the IDF treatment of Palestinians and what Jews experienced under the Nazis. Such comparisons are not created by cartoonists, but are made worldwide.He instanced the fact that a Holocaust survivor like ] reacted to the image of a Palestinian woman forsaging in the rubble by thinking of his mother in Auschwitz.</blockquote> | |||
| :That's an improvement on both what I earlier wrote and the silly statement your removalism reduced the text to. It can be tweaked, but something like this must go back in, since not getting Latuff's position absolutely clear while pushing the anti-Semitism charge violates both ] and ].] (]) 20:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
| ::Latuf said that Lapid said that a Palestinian woman searching through the rubble reminded him of his grandmother who died Auschwitz. That's it. You generalized that into Latuff said Lapid said the IDF is treating the Palestinians like the Nazis treated Jews. I'm sure even you can see the difference. Bringing a BBC article because you think that's what Latuff was referring to is SYNTH. Kindly stay true to what the sources actually say, not what you think they meant, and nobody will have to revert your edits. ] (]) 20:58, 24 June 2015 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 23:15, 3 August 2024
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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Markaberk.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Excessive external links
We now have five links in the external links section. As per WP:EXT, this is excessive. See WP:ELMINOFFICIAL: Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. However, Misplaced Pages does not provide a comprehensive web directory to every official website. Misplaced Pages does not attempt to document or provide links to every part of the subject's web presence or provide readers with a handy list of all social networking sites. Complete directories lead to clutter and to placing undue emphasis on what the subject says.
Can we choose which one or two to include and delete the others?
- A Google search yields this article as the first result at the twitter page as the second, so I guess it is the most popular official link. “WarKosign” 20:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Cuckolding fetish
Before anyone revert my edit, he actually has many cartoons about this topic.
https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632
https://twitter.com/latuffcartoons/status/842577690322501632
etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azuizo (talk • contribs) 05:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's WP:OR or borders vandalism --Denniss (talk) 09:41, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) Azuizo (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- this ref is worth nothing as your claim is not supported + its in a foreign language without translation. --Denniss (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Now I’ve linked an academic article about this. It is not original research anymore. :-) Azuizo (talk) 18:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Non english sources are allowed, but it is in bounds to ask for a translation of the relevant portion. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Non-English_sources. Azuizo Please provide a quote of the relevant section in both the original language and English. ResultingConstant (talk) 23:15, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I find it incredibly racist to say that Portuguese is a “foreign” language. Azuizo (talk) 20:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- you do know this is the English wiki right? ResultingConstant (talk) 21:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Stance on Russia-Ukraine war
The article clearly lacks any mentions of pro-russian sentiment shared by the subject. Since 2014 he made several caricatures depicting Ukrainians in a dehumanizing way, like this:
https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1504505076290891778 https://ms-my.facebook.com/internationalriot/photos/ukraine-antimaidan-euromaidanfrom-latuff-brasil/671544492901910/
I, as a Ukrainian, find it offensive
He oftentimes dubbs the Russian narrative about "all Ukrainians are nazis", examples:
https://www.irancartoon.com/site/media/zartists/75a4d29f877cd51c3aba2fb049b8611b/carlos-latuff-26.jpg https://twitter.com/LatuffCartoons/status/1181257040913686528
From what the subject posts in social media, his Iran-China-Russia bias is obvious, and it should be pointed out in the article. Choomaque (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- I agree completely and it's a shame that it's not mentioned in the article. Do you know of any reliable sources so we can put it in? 84.148.208.43 (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
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