| Revision as of 02:23, 26 January 2024 editKane 1371 (talk | contribs)48 edits →Modern Iranian people portion of introduction: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 09:15, 14 September 2024 edit undoKane 1371 (talk | contribs)48 edits →Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire?: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply |
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Different tribes are named as Iranian tribes with no references. Please either cite a prominent resource or remove that part. |
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Different tribes are named as Iranian tribes with no references. Please either cite a prominent resource or remove that part. |
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== Revising the section on the history of Western vs. Eastern Iranian peoples == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2023 == |
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I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of ] who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the ] who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. ] (]) |
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== Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire? == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Iranian peoples|answered=yes}} |
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Please remove extraneous link for "Iran" in this hatnote per ]. ] (]) 14:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (])<sup><span style="color:Green"><small>Ping me!</small></span></sup> 21:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Whats the source of this claim? Or is this another Persian propaganda? ] (]) 18:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2023 == |
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:Kindly read ]. What exactly is "another Persian propaganda"? |
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{{edit extended-protected|Iranian peoples|answered=yes}} |
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:* ''"As the Ottoman Turks learned Persian, the language and the culture it carried seeped not only into their court and imperial institutions but also into their vernacular language and culture. The appropriation of Persian, both as a second language and as a language to be steeped together with Turkish, was encouraged notably by the sultans, the ruling class, and leading members of the mystical communities."'' -- Inan, Murat Umut (2019) "Imperial Ambitions, Mystical Aspirations: Persian Learning in the Ottoman World" in Green, Nile (ed.). The Persianate World: The Frontiers of a Eurasian Lingua Franca. University of California Press. pp. 88–89. |
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Change "Modern Iranian peoples include the Baloch, the Gilaks, the Kurds, the Lurs, the Mazanderanis, the Ossetians, the Pamiris, the Pashtuns, the Persians, the Tats, the Tajiks, the Talysh, the Wakhis, the Yaghnobis, and the Zazas" to include Hazaras. Change it to say "Modern Iranian peoples include the Baloch, the Gilaks, the Kurds, the Lurs, the Mazanderanis, the Ossetians, the Pamiris, the Pashtuns, the Persians, the Tats, the Tajiks, the Hazaras, the Talysh, the Wakhis, the Yaghnobis, and the Zazas." Hazaras are an iranic people, we speak an Iranic language (Farsi/Dari), same as the Tajiks of Afghanistan. We are descendants of Tajiks who mixed with Changis Khan and his Mongol army. Don't exclude us from Iranic people please, we are Iranic. You can place the word "Hazaras" anywhere on the list of Iranic peoples, I just put it next to Tajik because they are our ancestors/brothers. ] (]) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:* "''Persian served as a ‘minority’ prestige language of culture at the largely Turcophone Ottoman court."'' -- Baki Tezcan. (2012). "Ottoman Historical Writing" in José Rabasa (ed). '' The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 ''. pp. 192–211 |
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:{{ping|26378J}} {{Done}} ] (]) 21:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC) |
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: - ] (]) 00:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::I'm sorry, i reverted you edit because it was unsourced, if {{u|26378J}} wants to include this ethnic group in the Iranian peoples, the ] is on them to provide ] for that.<b><span style="color:orange">---Wikaviani </span></b><sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 21:19, 4 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:I dont know man, what are those Persian poems doing on topkapi Palace? |
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::: It was no more unsourced than the other entries in the list, which for some reason you didn't remove. Anyway, I've now added links to two sources (which were already cited in the article). ] (]) 09:00, 5 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:Probably some more Persian propaganda ] (]) 09:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|JBW}} I have no access to the other source (number 14), but the Iranica entry does not support what you added to the lede, namely, the Hazaras being an Iranian people (it only says that they speak Persian). As a response to your edit summary, please correct if i'm missing something, but while a content from the lead generally does not require sourcing, it must be sourced and dealt with in the body of the article, which is not the case here, as i said just above, at least with Iranica. The other groups are well-known Iranian peoples, why should i remove them from the lead ?<b><span style="color:orange">---Wikaviani </span></b><sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 22:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::::: I have got far better things to do than enter into arguments about whether there is some "true" meaning of belonging to an ethnic group, beyond language, country of residence, self-identificatuon, etc, so I have reverted my edit. You may do what you will. ] (]) 08:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Thanks, i did not mean to try your patience or something, just came here to clarify my revert. Best.<b><span style="color:orange">---Wikaviani </span></b><sup><small><b>] ]</b></small></sup> 20:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::How are the other groups "well-known Iranian people" but not Hazaras? I know my own people. We share many features with Afghan Tajiks, many of use are even indistinguishable (w/o Mongol features). I, and others in my family, have done DNA tests and confirmed that we are mix of native Tajiks and Mongols. If you've been to Afghanistan you'd understand- this is the Hazara ethnic group. Yes, speaking Persian isn't proof that we're not just Mongol immigrants, but how is our own physical ethnic features not enough? Yes, we have Mongol ancestry, but it is partial ancestry of ancestors who mixed with the natives. I don't see how the proof is on me, a mixed race man, that we don't somehow not have a relation to the country we are from and live in. How do you assume it works that we're not Iranic? With no proof- we are just Persian-speaking unrelateds? We would be "well-known" if it weren't for being erased visibly like this. Also, if you check Hazara wiki page you will find sources regarding our Iranic heritage. Sorry, I'm knew to wikipedia and don't know how to cite. I know me and my people, though. ] (]) 22:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 September 2024 == |
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== Revising the section on the history of Western vs. Eastern Iranian peoples == |
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I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of ] who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the ] who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. ] (]) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Iranian peoples|answered=yes}} |
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== Modern Iranian people portion of introduction == |
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Fix citation 2 and add citation to total population. ] (]) 02:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 12:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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So a while back I had this back and forth with user Aintabli. |
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This article, the article for Iranian Azerbaijanis has clear census on the simple fact that Azerbaijanis (at least the ones in Iran) are Iranian people based on common culture, common history, common nationality, and even more importantly for this discussion common genetics. |
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This article literally refers to Iranian Azerbaijanis at later parts and groups them in the CIC as they should be by all genetics evidence. |
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When I simply added Azeris to the list of modern Iranian people the said user repeatedly edited my addition despite me pointing out in edit notes that I am just adding something that should already be there. |
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I would like to have this issue solved. |
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Is there any actual source that is some how refuting the existing reputable sources in this article that we are all missing? |
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Because otherwise my very minimalist and simple addition should be reinstated ] (]) 02:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Azeris speak a Turkic language. Iranian peoples are defined by their use of Iranian languages. ] (]) 02:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Brazilians speak Portuguese and many African people speak french and native Americans speak English. ] (]) 02:23, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Different tribes are named as Iranian tribes with no references. Please either cite a prominent resource or remove that part.
I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of Greater Iran who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the Avestan people who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. Kjansen86 (talk)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bunnypranav (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)