| Revision as of 00:30, 4 August 2024 editLouisAragon (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers71,805 edits fixed← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 09:15, 14 September 2024 edit undoKane 1371 (talk | contribs)48 edits →Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire?: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply |
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== Revising the section on the history of Western vs. Eastern Iranian peoples == |
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== Revising the section on the history of Western vs. Eastern Iranian peoples == |
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I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of ] who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the ] who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. ] (]) |
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I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of ] who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the ] who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. ] (]) |
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== Modern Iranian people portion of introduction == |
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So a while back I had this back and forth with user Aintabli. |
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This article, the article for Iranian Azerbaijanis has clear census on the simple fact that Azerbaijanis (at least the ones in Iran) are Iranian people based on common culture, common history, common nationality, and even more importantly for this discussion common genetics. |
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This article literally refers to Iranian Azerbaijanis at later parts and groups them in the CIC as they should be by all genetics evidence. |
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When I simply added Azeris to the list of modern Iranian people the said user repeatedly edited my addition despite me pointing out in edit notes that I am just adding something that should already be there. |
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I would like to have this issue solved. |
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Is there any actual source that is some how refuting the existing reputable sources in this article that we are all missing? |
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Because otherwise my very minimalist and simple addition should be reinstated ] (]) 02:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Azeris speak a Turkic language. Iranian peoples are defined by their use of Iranian languages. ] (]) 02:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Brazilians speak Portuguese and many African people speak french and native Americans speak English. Also we have Iranian people listed right in this article that no longer speak Iranian languages in their majority like Ossetians, or the portion of Iranian people that settled in eastern europe. ] (]) 02:23, 26 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::an even more fun example, are French people Italian? after all they speak a latin language, so they can not be germanic people as we know Franks were. |
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::They must be Italian. |
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::The logic of defining people's ethnicity and descent based on language is extremely flawed and disregards how dynamic language is. |
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::Are the Scotts English? |
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::Are the Normans of England not Scandinavian descent because they speak english? Were the persian speaking Ottoman kings that even wrote poems in persian Iranian then? |
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::It is simple, genealogy does not care about your language when it studies your genes, and anthropology does not look at your language and go "Ah that decides it, these people in south africa speaking english are brits" ] (]) 03:03, 27 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire? == |
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== Persian was spoken in court in the Ottoman Empire? == |
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:Kindly read ]. What exactly is "another Persian propaganda"? |
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:Kindly read ]. What exactly is "another Persian propaganda"? |
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:* ''"As the Ottoman Turks learned Persian, the language and the culture it carried seeped not only into their court and imperial institutions but also into their vernacular language and culture. The appropriation of Persian, both as a second language and as a language to be steeped together with Turkish, was encouraged notably by the sultans, the ruling class, and leading members of the mystical communities."'' -- Inan, Murat Umut (2019). Green, Nile (ed.). The Persianate World: The Frontiers of a Eurasian Lingua Franca. University of California Press. pp. 88–89. |
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:* ''"As the Ottoman Turks learned Persian, the language and the culture it carried seeped not only into their court and imperial institutions but also into their vernacular language and culture. The appropriation of Persian, both as a second language and as a language to be steeped together with Turkish, was encouraged notably by the sultans, the ruling class, and leading members of the mystical communities."'' -- Inan, Murat Umut (2019) "Imperial Ambitions, Mystical Aspirations: Persian Learning in the Ottoman World" in Green, Nile (ed.). The Persianate World: The Frontiers of a Eurasian Lingua Franca. University of California Press. pp. 88–89. |
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:* "''Persian served as a ‘minority’ prestige language of culture at the largely Turcophone Ottoman court."'' -- Baki Tezcan. (2012). "Ottoman Historical Writing" in '' The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 ''. pp. 192–211 |
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:* "''Persian served as a ‘minority’ prestige language of culture at the largely Turcophone Ottoman court."'' -- Baki Tezcan. (2012). "Ottoman Historical Writing" in José Rabasa (ed). '' The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 The Oxford History of Historical Writing: Volume 3: 1400-1800 ''. pp. 192–211 |
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: - ] (]) 00:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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: - ] (]) 00:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:I dont know man, what are those Persian poems doing on topkapi Palace? |
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:Probably some more Persian propaganda ] (]) 09:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 September 2024 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Iranian peoples|answered=yes}} |
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Fix citation 2 and add citation to total population. ] (]) 02:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 12:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC) |
Different tribes are named as Iranian tribes with no references. Please either cite a prominent resource or remove that part.
I would suggest revising the sections on the history of Eastern and Western Iranian peoples. Firstly, the division into Eastern and Western is a linguistic one and not necessarily the best way to distinguish between different cultural groups. In fact, the section on Eastern Iranian peoples includes only Steppe-Iranian peoples who spoke languages that are categorised as Eastern but lived north or even west of the Western Iranians and are culturally very different from the Iranian peoples in the eastern part of the Iranian plateau. Moreover, Avestan is not an eastern Iranian language, but is so old that it preceded the division is west vs. east. Secondly, it is the people who lived in the eastern parts of Greater Iran who gave their name to this somewhat confusing category, but they are absent from this part of the article. Thirdly, I would suggest adding a section on the Avestan people who actually lived in the eastern part of Greater Iran and are not yet covered in this article. Kjansen86 (talk)
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Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bunnypranav (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)