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== ] is not related to ancient Chinese clothing == | |||
}} | |||
Please stop adding Korean ] to the list ''other traditional clothing'' that was influenced by ancient Chinese clothing. Please take note of ]. ] originated from a different tradition of clothing style, and has important differences to ancient Chinese clothing. The basic composition of Hanbok is an upper garment, ''jeogori'', and a lower garment, ''baji''. The lower garment, ''baji'', are trousers, introduced to ancient Korea by steppe cultures that is adapted to horse-riding. This style is called ''hu'' clothing in China, which means barbarian clothing, and it was first introduced to China by ], who decided that Chinese clothing was not fit for horse-riding, and adopted clothing of northern nomadic cultures, ''hu'' clothing, for his cavalry forces. Chinese style clothing either consists of a robe without pants or uses skirts as the lower garment. This distinction is clearly made in this very article, where it says Han Chinese use skirts called ''chang'', and Manchu use pants called ''ku''. Japanese ] is an example of clothing that is stylistically related to traditional Chinese clothing, which consists of either a piece of robe or a two-piece garment with the lower garment being a skirt. If you wish to add some traditional Korean clothing, please add a valid type of clothing based on reliable sources and common sense. By common sense, I mean not confusing a clothing style that uses trousers and a clothing style that uses skirts. I think a good candidate is ] to mention as a type of traditional Korean clothing related to traditional Chinese clothing. According to the Encylopedia of Korean Culture, ''dopo'' is a type of overcoat commonly wore by Confucians during Joseon dynasty. It originated from the Buddhist monk clothing ''jangsam'', which itself came from China, reflecting China's climate and clothing style. ] (]) 14:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC) | |||
Hanbok is related to the hanfu!! ] (]) 22:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
''"The territories of Korea used to be the ancient land of Han and Tang. '''Our costumes and relics conformed to Song.''' The kingdom system and structure adopted from Ming. It is rightful and legal to inherit the true name of Greater China and her culture. --------], Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 AD 1897."'' From the description of Gojong, we can know that ] comes from ] in ], what you are claiming does not make sense. ] (]) 0:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
I can't not find source on Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36. where did this came from? | |||
by the way Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 is not 100% reliable due to Japanese occupation. | |||
*this site show complete source of Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 http://sillok.history.go.kr | |||
== Hanbok, Korea == | |||
Did you know Dongbukgongjeong? It is the China' government's project to make Korean history, to China history. Actually, Hanfu is one of Dongbukgongjeong, too. It means China's traditional cloth is Chipao, but they still saying "our traditional cloth is hanfu(fusion Hanbok). | |||
Yes, there are the Hanfu, too. It is China's cloth that influenced by Hanbok. But China still saying fusion Habok is Hanfu!! | |||
Please edit them, Lizzycozy. ] (]) 12:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC) | |||
Hanfu is not related to Dongbukgongjeong. I don't think that rumours and speculations have any places on this Misplaced Pages page ] (]) 16:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC) | |||
You have no evidence that ] is influenced by ], but we Chinese people can read the history written by Korean people and find the truth different from what you are claiming: | |||
고려사권(History of Goryeo) 137권 (高麗史 137卷): AD 1392 | |||
“復行洪武年號,襲大明衣冠,禁胡服。” | |||
“Joseon Dynasty shall adopt the era name of Hongwu of Ming, wear Ming costumes and headgears, ban Hu Dress.” | |||
고종실록 고종 36권(Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty Volume 36 ) 朝鮮王朝實錄 高宗 36卷: AD 1897 | |||
“]疆土, 係是]、]古地, 衣冠文物, 悉遵]、]遺制, 接其統, 而襲其號, 無所不可。-]” | |||
"The territories of ] used to be the ancient land of Han and Tang. Our costumes and relics conformed to Song. The kingdom system and structure adopted from ]. It is rightful and legal to inherit the true name of Greater ] and her culture - ]" | |||
] (]) 0:36 , 16 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
the new uniform in palace praising Korean style, with square collar over waist and half arm | |||
宮衣新尚高麗樣, 方領過腰半臂裁. | |||
every night peoples scrambled to look at it, because I wore this on imperial court other day | |||
連夜內家爭借看, 爲曾著過禦前來. | |||
張昱 Zhang Yu, 宮中詞 record of Palace | |||
The court ladies of the red silk country are skilled as weavers, and they carry quilts on carts inside the palace gates. | |||
緋國宮人直女工, 衾禂載得內門中. | |||
The woman who was on the duty made a furoshiki well, so she imitates a Korean woman and puts her hair decorated to enter the palace.. | |||
當番女伴能包袱, 要學高麗頂入宮 | |||
Ke xian laoren ji chapter 221 可閑老人集 卷221 | |||
most of the court staff and officers are filled with women from Koreans. | |||
自至正以來, 宮中給事使令, 大半爲高麗女. | |||
Because of this, clothes, shoes, hats, and equipment everything around became a Korean styles, so how could it be called a coincidence? | |||
以故, 四方衣服鞋帽器物, 皆依高麗樣子. 此關系一時風氣, 豈偶然哉. | |||
Quan heng 權衡, Gengshen waishi庚申外史 | |||
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-01-22T23:10:24.706216 | Khitan.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-01-22T23:10:24.706216 | Khitans.jpg --> | |||
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 23:10, 22 January 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Origin of Term Hanfu == | |||
Lately, there have been many edits on the origin of the term Hanfu. This is what I have found about it being termed by internet users: | |||
→ "The term hanfu was coined by internet users recently to describe the clothing of Han people in ancient China before Qing Dynasty (1644-1911)." | |||
→ " said Zhou, referring to the term coined by internet users to describe clothing worn by Han Chinese before the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911)." | |||
The only websites which mention that "The term "Hanfu" was created in recent years by Internet users to describe the Han people's clothing during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD)" is from website ChinaHighlights (which is blacklisted by Misplaced Pages). However, from the , it is written that "Most people think that Hanfu refers to the costumes of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - AD 220), which is a misunderstanding. Hanfu first appeared in China more than 3,000 years ago and was evolved with fashion in the following dynasties". | |||
Moreover, generally, most journal articles and newspaper articles and websites that I have seen refer to the Hanfu as the clothing of the Han ethnic Chinese in China worn for thousand of years before the Manchu Conquest and before the establishment of Qing Dynasty: | |||
→ As seen in all links I have put above and the following links below | |||
→ https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO200916263468106.pdf | |||
→ https://www.theworldofchinese.com/2013/06/a-brief-intro-to-hanfu/ | |||
→ https://www.cnn.com/style/article/hanfu-rise-intl-hnk/index.html | |||
→ https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1098370.shtml | |||
N.B. All the sources above are written in English. | |||
Aklys Erida ] (]) 15:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC) Aklys Erida | |||
== More sources needed == | |||
I was wondering if anyone has more sources which could be used to develop the following section: | |||
* Six dynasties (also known as Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern dynasties) | |||
* Sui dynasty | |||
Side note: I am adding as much info that I can found from English sources; but in all transparency, I feel that those info should be double-checked with their corresponding Chinese sources, if possible. | |||
For example, gown and robe has been used in English literature and scholarly journals and books, but it could also be "Shenyi" or "Paofu" if written in Chinese literature. Because of that, I tried to keep the terms used as closely as I could find it in English literature, e.g. I kept it as Shenyi and Paofu whenever the authors call it as such. | |||
:My Chinese is not high enough for academic papers, which is why I favour english sources, I am sorry that this is the limit of my contribution to this Misplaced Pages page. | |||
There are a lot of Chinese articles which talk about Han Chinese clothing but are unfortunately not available in English; the database that I know of and which is open accessed is the following : | |||
* http://www.cnsilk.cn/en/ (while the full-text tends to be in Chinese, the abstracts are usually in English). | |||
Thank you for all your dedication and hard work, | |||
Aklys Erida ] (]) 03:32, 7 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
== Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2021 == | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Hanfu|answered=yes}} | |||
add them on Ming dynasty's section | |||
after the paragraph for Vietnamese clothing influenced by Ming | |||
there's a paper about this topic https://iahs.fudan.edu.cn/swfupload/uploadfiles/file/%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0%E4%B8%8E%E8%AE%A4%E5%90%8C_%E6%98%8E%E5%88%9D%E6%9C%9D%E9%B2%9C%E5%8D%8A%E5%B2%9B%E8%A2%AD%E7%94%A8_%E5%A4%A7%E6%98%8E%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0_%E5%8E%86%E7%A8%8B%E5%88%9D%E6%8E%A2_%E5%BC%A0%E4%BD%B3.pdf | |||
written by 张佳 Zhangjia,FuDan university Chinese literature Academy research fellow 复旦大学文史研究院副研究员 | |||
== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == | |||
Korean ] was greatly influenced by the Great Ming, according to the History of Ming, Taejo of Joseon had sent requests to Nanjing serval times for changing the nation's title into Joseon.''闻皇太子薨,遣使表慰,并请更国号,帝命仍古号曰朝鲜''.<ref>{{cite book |url=https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=410835&remap=gb|title=History of Ming chap.320 明史 卷320 外国一·朝鲜 |publisher=Government of Qin, 1782|last1=Zhang |first1=Tingyu |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref> February of 1402 ] sent Pan wenkui and other government officials to grant the kingdom sets of official headwears and clothing. Joseon as the vassal state of Ming, ] received the title of the vassal prince(]), with the status of Ealdorman(]).''帝遣鸿胪寺行人潘文奎来赐王冕服,其敕书曰: “敕朝鲜国王李芳远:日者陪臣来朝,屡以冕服为请,事下有司。稽诸古制,以为四夷之国,虽大曰子。且朝鲜本郡王爵,宜赐以五章或七章服。朕惟春秋之义,远人能自进于中国,则中国之。今朝鲜固远郡也,而能自进于礼义,不得待以子、男礼。且其地逖在海外,非恃中国之宠数,则无以令其臣民。兹特命赐以亲王九章之服,遣使者往谕朕意''<ref>{{cite book |title=朝鲜李朝实录中的中国史料 |url=https://books.google.fi/books/about/%E6%9C%9D%E9%AE%AE%E6%9D%8E%E6%9C%9D%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84%E4%B8%AD%E7%9A%84%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E5%8F%B2%E6%96%99.html?id=PiEjAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y |page=167 |date=1980 |publisher=Zhonghua Book Company |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref>The year of 1403(永乐元年), Joseon sent more requests for literature and clothing for royal families from Ming and had shown the wish to learn, inheritance Ming's etiquettes. ''嘉其能慕中国礼,赐金印、诰命、冕服九章、圭玉、珮玉,妃珠翠七翟冠、霞帔、金坠,及经籍彩币表里。''<ref>{{cite book |url=https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=410835&remap=gb|title=History of Ming chap.320 明史 卷320 外国一·朝鲜 |publisher=Government of Qin, 1782|last1=Zhang |first1=Tingyu |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref>''为中国之番邦,故历代亲信于中国,受封爵,朝贡不绝,礼仪之道不缺,衣冠制度,悉同于中国各代之制,故曰'' written by Xu JuZheng (서거정)<ref>{{cite book |title=Chinese history in the historic document 'history of Lee's Joseon' 朝鲜李朝实录中的中国史料 |url=https://books.google.fi/books/about/%E6%9C%9D%E9%AE%AE%E6%9D%8E%E6%9C%9D%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84%E4%B8%AD%E7%9A%84%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B%E5%8F%B2%E6%96%99.html?id=PiEjAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y |page=167-168 |date=1980 |publisher=Zhonghua Book Company |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref>,''蓋我朝鮮地雖海外,衣冠文物悉同中國''written by ] (崔溥/최부, 1454–1504)<ref>{{cite book |url=https://books.google.fi/books/about/%E6%BC%82%E6%B5%B7%E5%BD%95.html?id=G7dtAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y|title=漂海录: 中国行记 Documentation of Bohai, trip to China|publisher=社会科学文献出版社, 1992|last1=최 |first1=부 |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref>, the two Joseon officals stated they had adapted Ming's political system, style of etiquette, crown rituals and absorbed other cultural aspects due to the relationships, trades, cultural exchange with the ].<ref>{{cite book |url=https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh-hans/%E6%9C%9D%E9%AE%AE%E7%8E%8B%E6%9C%9D%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84/%E4%B8%96%E5%AE%97%E5%AF%A6%E9%8C%84|title=世宗庄宪大王实录·五礼·序文 |publisher=Kingdom of Joseon|last1=최 |first1=부 |access-date=2021-02-06 |language=zh}}</ref> | |||
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-04-07T10:52:10.044619 | 汉代 国博首场中国古代服饰展.jpg --> | |||
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 10:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC) | |||
== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion == | |||
these links are portraits of hanbok and hanfu in Ming, you can clearly see the similarity | |||
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2022-06-02T05:36:45.706122 | Thin silk skirt, unearthed form Mawangdui Tomb.png --> | |||
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 05:36, 2 June 2022 (UTC) | |||
== is Hanfu really modern chinese traditional dress?? == | |||
] (]) 20:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] 09:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
Baizerman, Suzanne, Joanne B. Eicher, and Cathleen Cerny. "Eurocentrism in the Study of Ethnic Dress." Dress 20 (1993): 19–32. | |||
Blumer, Herbert. "Collective Behavior." In An Outline of the Principles of Sociology. Edited by Robert Park. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1939. | |||
Boas, Franz. "The Social Organization and the Secret Societies of the Kwakiutl Indians." Report of the U.S. National Museum for 1895. Washington, D.C.: U.S. National Museum, 1897. | |||
Ellwood, Charles. An Introduction to Social Psychology. New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1918. | |||
Frater, Judy. "Rabari Dress." In Mud, Mirror, and Thread: Folk Traditions in Rural India. Edited by Nora Fisher. Santa Fe: Museum of New Mexico Pres; Ahmedabad: Mapin, 1993. | |||
Freeman, Richard. Travels and Life in Ashanti and Jaman. New York: Frederick A. Stokes Co., 1898. | |||
Harrold, Robert, and Phylidda Legg. Folk Costumes of the World. London: Cassell Academic Press, 1999. | |||
Hendrikson, Carol. Weaving Identities: Construction of Dress and Self in a Highland Guatemala Town. Austin: University of Texas, 1995. | |||
Kennett, Frances. Ethnic Dress. New York: Facts on File, 1995. | |||
Lentz, Carola. "Ethnic Conflict and Changing Dress Codes: A Case Study of an Indian Migrant Village in Highland Ecuador." In Dress and Ethnicity. Edited by Joanne B. Eicher. Oxford: Berg, 1995. | |||
Mera, H. P. Navajo Women's Dresses. General Series Bulletin No. 15. Santa Fe, N.M.: Laboratory of Anthropology, 1944. | |||
Sapir, Edward. "Fashion." In Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences. Vol. 6. New York: Macmillan, 1931. | |||
Sumberg, Barbara. "Dress and Ethnic Differentiation in the Niger Delta." In Dress and Ethnicity. Edited by Joanne Eicher. Oxford: Berg, 1995. | |||
Tarrant, Naomi. The Development of Costume. London: Routledge, 1994. | |||
Underhill, Ruth. The Navajos. Norman: University of Oklahoma, 1956. | |||
Weir, Shelagh. Palestinian Costume. Austin: University of Texas, 1989. | |||
Welters, Linda. "Introduction." In Folk Dress in Europe and Anatolia. Edited by Linda Welters. Oxford: Berg, 1999. | |||
Westermarck, Edward. Marriage Ceremonies in Morocco. London: Macmillan and Co., Ltd., 1914. | |||
Wilcox, R. Turner. Folk and Festival Costume of the World. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1965. | |||
why not put korean hanbok in joseon period being strongly influenced by Ming if Vietnamese contents are there? (ming dynasty section) | |||
hanbok wore by the officials during early Joseon to mid Joseon were originated from Ming, they received them through diplomatic trips, the sources I entered are all traceable and fact, some of the original documents are now stored in US, one of them is now kept in Harvard university. so its not influenced, its copy, exactly the same '衣冠制度,悉同于中国各代之制,故曰', and the current hanbok is obviously arranged from these Ming clothing in Joseon, it is most obvious for males hanbok as what the king wears and other courts clothings still remain the same until the end of Joseon dynasty. there's many black and white pictures taken by foreigners as evidence. match perfectly with court clothing for male in Ming(because yes they had to wear as a vassal state to ming, even after ming's collapse and they still kept the outfits until the Japanese arrived) | |||
Diplomatic documents clearly stated they sent officials to Ming begged the emperor to grant them Ming-style of clothing(赐服), headwear and other things, I also named two person who are Korean, working for the joseon at that time, written many sentences indicate court style clothing for officials and the royal family were the same as Ming's, because its what they supposed to wear as the vassal state to Ming, such styles evolved to the current hanbok when Ming collapsed and Qin took over mainland China. | |||
for the court style clothing(官服), it still remained the same as Ming's, the king wears Mangfu 蟒服(equvilant to crown prince in Ming) it has 4 claws, different to the Pao Ming's emperor wears(dragon, 5 claws) | |||
my sources are not only written by chinese, there's written by Korean as well, but as everyone knows, its in Chinese characters, so i put zh as the language (they were still using hanja/chinese words until one king invented Korean letters we know nowaday) this is my explanation why the sources are all in 'chinese'. | |||
] (]) 20:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
{{Reflist-talk}} | |||
according to reference like upward, Hanfu is not traditional dress of modern china. their revived Hanfu is like roman Toga and greek Kiton . | |||
== Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2021 == | |||
accordinf to definition of tradition. Hanfu is nor traditional dress of modern chinese. ] (]) 05:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:Hanfu is the traditional clothing of the Han Chinese, because they are 100% restored according to the clothing of the ancients ] (]) 21:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Hanfu|answered=yes}} | |||
:according to your funny logic, hanbok is not the traditional dress of south Korea, since south korea was established in 1948. It has nothing to do with Ancient Korea. ] (]) 22:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
Remove: Hanfu influenced the traditional clothing of many neighbouring cultures, such as Korean Hanbok | |||
::The word 'Hanfu' didn't even exist before 2000. It's a made up 'modern word' by Chinese government's cultural propaganda. Plus, what is transitional clothing? Doesn't it mean continued generation to generation? Clothes that Chinese people call 'Hanfu' is forgotten and discontinued clothing at least hundreds years ago. So how Chinese revived so called Hanfu? Easy. Good references were there. Korean Hanbok and Japanese Kimono. ] (]) 20:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
:It’s even funnier to use western materials to talk about Chinese culture. Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece have perished, but China has always existed. ] (]) 22:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
:It is very likely that those sources are outdated by many decades. Back in the days, there were not much critical studies of non- American/European clothing. This was reflected in the literature of that time when authors did not see non-Western countries as having fashion and believed that non-Western (traditional) clothing was static and unchanged with time, which was itself a bias view on clothing, apparel, jewelleries, garments of others non-American/European people. Because they were not familiar with the clothing of others, they could not neither observe nor record differences in fashion. For them, traditional clothing became something static when it was not. | |||
:Hanfu cannot be compared with the roman toga and the greek kiton; the ancient greeks and romans are old civilization which do not exist anymore. Same with ancient Egypt, the ancient Egypt civilization does not exist. Chinese civilization is remains one of the oldest civilization with a continuous history; hanfu still existed in the 20th century but showed a decline at last from the mid-20th century. The early 21st century shows a progressive return to popularity. As such, hanfu has never ceased to exist. Hanfu also falls in the Webster's Third International Dictionary definition, "an inherited or established way of thinking, feeling or doing: a cultural feature preserved or evolved from the past" . Regardless of how the forms, styles, fashion have changed with time and socio-historical contexts , it still follows an established way of thinking, feeling, and doing, being a cultural feature which has been preserved and evolved from the past. ] (]) 12:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC) | |||
::Exactly, you admitted. 'Hanfu' is a modern word that didn't even exist before 2000. It was created by Government led cultural operation. The question is why it is different from Roman Toga and Greek Kiton while Chinese has stopped wearing their old clothes for at least hundreds years? ] (]) 20:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
Traditional dress may be defined as the ensemble of garments, jewelry, and accessories rooted in the past that is worn by an identifiable group of people. Though slight changes over time in color, form, and material are acknowledged, the assemblage seems to be handed down unchanged from the past.Traditional dress or costume is a phrase used widely both by the general public and writers on dress. | |||
Hanbok was not influenced by Hanfu. Please remove the line to show correct information. | |||
It conjures up images of rural people dressed in colorful, layered, exotic clothing from an idealized past in some faraway place. This notion of traditional dress has been scrutinized and found inadequate by many researchers and scholars, but its uncritical use continues into the twenty-first century. | |||
Evidence as below: | |||
"traditional costume." In Webster's Third International Dictionary, tradition is defined as "an inherited or established way of thinking, feeling or doing: a cultural feature preserved or evolved from the past" (1993, p. 2422; italics by author). | |||
The hanbok can be traced back to the Three Kingdoms of Korea period | |||
source: | |||
Myeong-Jong, Yoo (2005). 《The Discovery of Korea: History-Nature-Cultural Heritages-Art-Tradition-Cities》. Discovery Media. P123 | |||
Macdonald, Fiona, ed. (2004). Peoples of Eastern Asia. Marshall Cavendish. p. 366. | |||
Lee, Samuel Songhoon (2015). Hanbok: Timeless Fashion Tradition. Seoul Selection. | |||
Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. p. 90. | |||
Often made in the family for personal use, traditional dress uses materials commonly available where the maker lives. These materials and styles are often assumed to have evolved in response to environments-wool in cold climates, cotton in warm. But traditional dress often also incorporates imported materials obtained by trade. Exotic fabrics or notions can be incorporated into a people's dress and become "traditional," as Indian madras has for the Kalabari Ijo of the Niger Delta. Although no one knows where it originated, a print cloth called ondoba, said to have arrived with the Portuguese in the fifteenth century, "belongs" to the Nembe Ijo of the Niger Delta. | |||
Early forms of Hanbok can be seen in the art of Goguryeo tomb murals in the same period. | |||
source: | |||
Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. 길잡이미디어. p. 90. | |||
Condra, Jill, ed. (2008). The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Clothing Through World History, Volume II. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 223. | |||
Nelson, 1993, p.7 & p.213-214 | |||
:The Greenwood encyclopedia actually states that the hanbok was influenced by Chinese style, and the the tomb murals have a Chinese art aesthetic. The other source you provided says that by 648 Mandarin robes were used by royalty in Korea as well. I don't think that source is enough to overturn the current wording. The lead says it influenced the design of the hanbok, not preceded or originated it. ] (]) 18:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC) | |||
The word "tradition" refers to an old culture that has been passed down to the present, because it is difficult to see that Hanfu is already a tradition the moment you substitute this word. A tradition is called a tradition if it has been passed on for at least three generations from the old days, and it can be recognized as a tradition if there are no interruptions or forgotten things in the middle. This similar concept is also used for UNESCO World Heritage listing. No matter how much they restore the lost Tang music, it cannot become a World Intangible Heritage. Even though relics excavated from tombs in the past are restored, restoration or re-creation does not conform to the concept of tradition. The form of hanfu they speak of differs from dynasty to dynasty, and it is not known how the masses wore it or how it was made. | |||
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Anthropomorphic jade figurines of Shang dynasty from Fuhao Tomb.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Buyao Flower.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | China's Northern Dynasties' pottery figurine.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Han dynasty wooden figurines 2.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Hang dynasty wooden figurine.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Male figure from Tomb 2, Chang-t'ai-kuan, Hsing-yang District, Henan.jpg --> | |||
* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Man wearing shanqun featured in the bronze armed warrior holding up chime bells.png --> | |||
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2021-03-16T09:40:26.699886 | Reverse replica of the crown of Empress Xiao.png --> | |||
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 09:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
Thats why,does not conform to the concept of tradition. | |||
== Too long == | |||
For example, it can be seen that the traditional clothing of modern Italy and Greece is different from the toga of ancient Rome and Greece. In other words, Italy and Greece do not define traditional culture that has been passed down to the present by excavating ancient relics that have not been worn until modern times, restoring what the ancient Romans wore, and wearing them. Even if the ancient Egyptians are unearthed and worn by modern Egyptians, they cannot be their traditional attire. In fact, the traditional clothing of the Egyptians is only recognized as the traditional clothing worn by the Egyptians in Galabe. In case of Hanfu, there is no evidence like photo and other record to proove that Chinese people had have worn Hanfu in modern periods | |||
{{ping|Gyuli Gula|Aklys Erida}} | |||
== Citations about Influencing other Cultural Dress == | |||
The article is very detailed and well written, thank you for the massive improvement. A problem though -- the article is now well above the ]. It is among the top 200 longest articles of Misplaced Pages and if we exclude lists then it may well be within the top 50. And some sections (for example the history) are already so complex that it may be difficult for readers without sufficient existing knowledge on the subject to follow through. | |||
I just checked the citation regarding Hanbok being influenced by Hanfu—the one from the National History Museum of Korea in its issu digitized magazine form. | |||
If more substantial edits are on the way, perhaps consider ] off some of the sections? The sections for each dynasties, for example, already appears long enough to be their own articles as "Clothing in XX dynasty" or "Fashion in XX dynasty". ] (]) 07:58, 6 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
I understand many nationalists from China, Korea, and really whatever other country’s cultural dress is in question get riled up and HEATED about this discussion on origin. Regardless, I must point out that having actually read the magazine no where in it does it support the claim Hanbok was influenced by or descended or associated with etc etc. with Hanfu. | |||
:{{ping|Esiymbro|Aklys Erida}} If this is ok with you, I will edit the article, I think that there is a few sections which could be merged with other hanfu pages (e.g. list of Hanfu, ruqun, etc.). At the same time, I will start removing duplicates from the history section. Maybe create a few more wikipedia pages...? | |||
I’m sure there’s a credible English source out there somewhere that acknowledges connection or influence from Hanfu. But nowhere in the Hanbok section is China or any Chinese dynasties even mentioned. Ergo, this citation is pointless, it does not support the assertion made. Should the citation be removed or some sort of tag placed indicating the need of a stronger citation? It’s kind of like no one actually read the magazine. I feel like this also prompts a round of review on the other citations for clarity. Hopefully they all support what is being said in the article as written, but it is clear the current source for Hanbok is insufficient. Maybe some fashion studies journal article about Hanfu/Hanbok would have the line needed? ] (]) 18:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
:{{ping|Esiymbro|Gyuli Gula}} Hi both, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I don't mind it at all. I am very busy these days, so I will only have time to do small edits. {{ping|Gyuli Gula}}, please feel free do so :) Thank you for your hard work to both of you AE ] (]) 12:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC) |
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is Hanfu really modern chinese traditional dress??
Baizerman, Suzanne, Joanne B. Eicher, and Cathleen Cerny. "Eurocentrism in the Study of Ethnic Dress." Dress 20 (1993): 19–32. Blumer, Herbert. "Collective Behavior." In An Outline of the Principles of Sociology. Edited by Robert Park. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1939. Boas, Franz. "The Social Organization and the Secret Societies of the Kwakiutl Indians." Report of the U.S. National Museum for 1895. Washington, D.C.: U.S. National Museum, 1897. Ellwood, Charles. An Introduction to Social Psychology. New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1918. Frater, Judy. "Rabari Dress." In Mud, Mirror, and Thread: Folk Traditions in Rural India. Edited by Nora Fisher. Santa Fe: Museum of New Mexico Pres; Ahmedabad: Mapin, 1993. Freeman, Richard. Travels and Life in Ashanti and Jaman. New York: Frederick A. Stokes Co., 1898. Harrold, Robert, and Phylidda Legg. Folk Costumes of the World. London: Cassell Academic Press, 1999. Hendrikson, Carol. Weaving Identities: Construction of Dress and Self in a Highland Guatemala Town. Austin: University of Texas, 1995. Kennett, Frances. Ethnic Dress. New York: Facts on File, 1995. Lentz, Carola. "Ethnic Conflict and Changing Dress Codes: A Case Study of an Indian Migrant Village in Highland Ecuador." In Dress and Ethnicity. Edited by Joanne B. Eicher. Oxford: Berg, 1995. Mera, H. P. Navajo Women's Dresses. General Series Bulletin No. 15. Santa Fe, N.M.: Laboratory of Anthropology, 1944. Sapir, Edward. "Fashion." In Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences. Vol. 6. New York: Macmillan, 1931. Sumberg, Barbara. "Dress and Ethnic Differentiation in the Niger Delta." In Dress and Ethnicity. Edited by Joanne Eicher. Oxford: Berg, 1995. Tarrant, Naomi. The Development of Costume. London: Routledge, 1994. Underhill, Ruth. The Navajos. Norman: University of Oklahoma, 1956. Weir, Shelagh. Palestinian Costume. Austin: University of Texas, 1989. Welters, Linda. "Introduction." In Folk Dress in Europe and Anatolia. Edited by Linda Welters. Oxford: Berg, 1999. Westermarck, Edward. Marriage Ceremonies in Morocco. London: Macmillan and Co., Ltd., 1914. Wilcox, R. Turner. Folk and Festival Costume of the World. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1965.
according to reference like upward, Hanfu is not traditional dress of modern china. their revived Hanfu is like roman Toga and greek Kiton .
accordinf to definition of tradition. Hanfu is nor traditional dress of modern chinese. 175.213.48.82 (talk) 05:23, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hanfu is the traditional clothing of the Han Chinese, because they are 100% restored according to the clothing of the ancients 63.157.97.218 (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- according to your funny logic, hanbok is not the traditional dress of south Korea, since south korea was established in 1948. It has nothing to do with Ancient Korea. 63.157.97.218 (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- The word 'Hanfu' didn't even exist before 2000. It's a made up 'modern word' by Chinese government's cultural propaganda. Plus, what is transitional clothing? Doesn't it mean continued generation to generation? Clothes that Chinese people call 'Hanfu' is forgotten and discontinued clothing at least hundreds years ago. So how Chinese revived so called Hanfu? Easy. Good references were there. Korean Hanbok and Japanese Kimono. 199.175.128.1 (talk) 20:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- It’s even funnier to use western materials to talk about Chinese culture. Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece have perished, but China has always existed. 63.157.97.218 (talk) 22:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- It is very likely that those sources are outdated by many decades. Back in the days, there were not much critical studies of non- American/European clothing. This was reflected in the literature of that time when authors did not see non-Western countries as having fashion and believed that non-Western (traditional) clothing was static and unchanged with time, which was itself a bias view on clothing, apparel, jewelleries, garments of others non-American/European people. Because they were not familiar with the clothing of others, they could not neither observe nor record differences in fashion. For them, traditional clothing became something static when it was not.
- Hanfu cannot be compared with the roman toga and the greek kiton; the ancient greeks and romans are old civilization which do not exist anymore. Same with ancient Egypt, the ancient Egypt civilization does not exist. Chinese civilization is remains one of the oldest civilization with a continuous history; hanfu still existed in the 20th century but showed a decline at last from the mid-20th century. The early 21st century shows a progressive return to popularity. As such, hanfu has never ceased to exist. Hanfu also falls in the Webster's Third International Dictionary definition, "an inherited or established way of thinking, feeling or doing: a cultural feature preserved or evolved from the past" . Regardless of how the forms, styles, fashion have changed with time and socio-historical contexts , it still follows an established way of thinking, feeling, and doing, being a cultural feature which has been preserved and evolved from the past. Gyuligula2 (talk) 12:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly, you admitted. 'Hanfu' is a modern word that didn't even exist before 2000. It was created by Government led cultural operation. The question is why it is different from Roman Toga and Greek Kiton while Chinese has stopped wearing their old clothes for at least hundreds years? 199.175.128.1 (talk) 20:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Traditional dress may be defined as the ensemble of garments, jewelry, and accessories rooted in the past that is worn by an identifiable group of people. Though slight changes over time in color, form, and material are acknowledged, the assemblage seems to be handed down unchanged from the past.Traditional dress or costume is a phrase used widely both by the general public and writers on dress.
It conjures up images of rural people dressed in colorful, layered, exotic clothing from an idealized past in some faraway place. This notion of traditional dress has been scrutinized and found inadequate by many researchers and scholars, but its uncritical use continues into the twenty-first century.
"traditional costume." In Webster's Third International Dictionary, tradition is defined as "an inherited or established way of thinking, feeling or doing: a cultural feature preserved or evolved from the past" (1993, p. 2422; italics by author).
Often made in the family for personal use, traditional dress uses materials commonly available where the maker lives. These materials and styles are often assumed to have evolved in response to environments-wool in cold climates, cotton in warm. But traditional dress often also incorporates imported materials obtained by trade. Exotic fabrics or notions can be incorporated into a people's dress and become "traditional," as Indian madras has for the Kalabari Ijo of the Niger Delta. Although no one knows where it originated, a print cloth called ondoba, said to have arrived with the Portuguese in the fifteenth century, "belongs" to the Nembe Ijo of the Niger Delta.
The word "tradition" refers to an old culture that has been passed down to the present, because it is difficult to see that Hanfu is already a tradition the moment you substitute this word. A tradition is called a tradition if it has been passed on for at least three generations from the old days, and it can be recognized as a tradition if there are no interruptions or forgotten things in the middle. This similar concept is also used for UNESCO World Heritage listing. No matter how much they restore the lost Tang music, it cannot become a World Intangible Heritage. Even though relics excavated from tombs in the past are restored, restoration or re-creation does not conform to the concept of tradition. The form of hanfu they speak of differs from dynasty to dynasty, and it is not known how the masses wore it or how it was made.
Thats why,does not conform to the concept of tradition.
For example, it can be seen that the traditional clothing of modern Italy and Greece is different from the toga of ancient Rome and Greece. In other words, Italy and Greece do not define traditional culture that has been passed down to the present by excavating ancient relics that have not been worn until modern times, restoring what the ancient Romans wore, and wearing them. Even if the ancient Egyptians are unearthed and worn by modern Egyptians, they cannot be their traditional attire. In fact, the traditional clothing of the Egyptians is only recognized as the traditional clothing worn by the Egyptians in Galabe. In case of Hanfu, there is no evidence like photo and other record to proove that Chinese people had have worn Hanfu in modern periods
Citations about Influencing other Cultural Dress
I just checked the citation regarding Hanbok being influenced by Hanfu—the one from the National History Museum of Korea in its issu digitized magazine form.
I understand many nationalists from China, Korea, and really whatever other country’s cultural dress is in question get riled up and HEATED about this discussion on origin. Regardless, I must point out that having actually read the magazine no where in it does it support the claim Hanbok was influenced by or descended or associated with etc etc. with Hanfu.
I’m sure there’s a credible English source out there somewhere that acknowledges connection or influence from Hanfu. But nowhere in the Hanbok section is China or any Chinese dynasties even mentioned. Ergo, this citation is pointless, it does not support the assertion made. Should the citation be removed or some sort of tag placed indicating the need of a stronger citation? It’s kind of like no one actually read the magazine. I feel like this also prompts a round of review on the other citations for clarity. Hopefully they all support what is being said in the article as written, but it is clear the current source for Hanbok is insufficient. Maybe some fashion studies journal article about Hanfu/Hanbok would have the line needed? 2601:14D:8600:2E30:254A:11FA:7FF0:C116 (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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