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	==War crime==
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
	Any intentional killing of civilians is considered a war crime. I do not understand why we need to be obtuse by including "may constitue." The only thing we can say is they "may" be innocent. However, if they are found guilty of ''willfully killing civilians'', by definition they are guilty of war crimes.]<font color="green"> ]</font><sup><font color="blue">]</font></sup> 10:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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	:Nescio, I am as keen not to exonerate war criminals as you are. If they did what's alleged and there are no extenuating circumstances (and no, I can't think of anything myself) then yes, a war crime has occurred. However, I think it's very important that we not display any bias in such a sensitive situation, and not pre-judge any court cases which might result. That said, I'll let your reversion stand, although I suspect others might feel the need to change it.  ] 11:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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	::I am not sure what you object to. The article does not claim they are guilty of killing civilians. But should they be, and '''after''' it has been established the killings were '''intentional''' and '''without any mitigating circumstances''' they are war crimes. To introduce double uncertainty, '''1''' they may have killed, and '''2''' that might be a war crime, we are introducing unwarranted doubt and unreasonable bias.]<font color="green"> ]</font><sup><font color="blue">]</font></sup> 11:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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	:::''I am not sure what you object to.'' Call it pre-emptive conservatism; I expect this article will be crawling with apologists shortly, and we need to be seen to be doing the right thing, as well as ''actually'' doing it. However, I think your latest change is great, and eliminates the problem.  ] 11:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
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	::::you're missing the point. whether the story is true or not, the act is a war crime. what is in question is whether they did it or not. the qualifier is in the wrong place.
			\|algo = old(90d)
	:::::I agree. This is neither the time nor the place for the words of the weasel. ==] 06:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
			\|archive = Talk:Haditha massacre/Archive %(counter)d
	::::::The solution might be to quote the Geneva Conventions and the ICCP, and other human rights treaties that the United States and Iraq have signed. You could then write about how a massacre would have violated these treaties if one did indeed occur (as seems to be the case) --] 20:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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	"Any intentional killing of civilians is considered a war crime." Not really. During WW2, allied forces bombed Japan and Germany and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians intentionally. Under the "victors justice" of the war crimes trials we conducted, this was never considered war crimes. Churchill and Truman were never indicted as were the German and Japanese leaders, even though the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden were intended to kill as many civilians as possible, as were the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Similarly, under generally used rules of engagement, enemy soldiers cannot use civilians as human shields and fire at opposing forces without fear of return fire under the principle that the return fire would be intentionally directed at civilians, if it was in the form of artillery or bombing which cannot distinguish who in the target area is killed. It may well be wrong, bad, shocking, and immoral, but where has it been treated in a civilian or military court as a war crime? The difference seems to be that the bombing or artillery are "death from a distance" or wholesale murder, as contrasted with close up gunshots to the head, or retail murder. ] 14:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
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			== External links modified ==
	Since the attorney general says:
	: ''"the war against terrorism is a new kind of war" and "this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions."''
	it doesn't really matter what that quaint old treaty says. I'm sure the 24 massacred iraqis are feeling very liberated right now. Whoo hoo, mission accomplished! ] 19:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Some observations
	*The fact that after WW II no allies were prosecuted for war crimes does not prove they did not commit any. It only proves that ] was implemented. This argument clearly is a ].
	*As to all the war crimes for which nobody has been indicted, this again does not prove they were not committed. It shows that politics is a very important part of getting indicted. Example, even if Bush is culpable for war crimes (torture, war of aggression, et cetera) it is certain he will never stand trial for political and not for legal reasons. Heck, every investigation into possible violation of US and international law has been frustrated (NSA no investigation, torture no investigation, discrepancy arguments for invading Iraq and then finding none were tru no investigation, et cetera).
	*If killing civilians is not a war crime, please explain what made My Lai a war crime.
	]<font color="green"> ]</font><sup><font color="blue">]</font></sup> 07:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified 8 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	==What does an Iraqi civilian look like?==
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071120021340/http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3283 to http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3283
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061230215242/http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/iraq.haditha/ to http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/iraq.haditha/
			*Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/military/general-drops-charges-for-two-marines-in-haditha-shootings/article_20b159c0-290b-52f0-84c1-a25dc41aefb3.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070715221551/http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070712-9999-1n12haditha.html to http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070712-9999-1n12haditha.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120115032850/http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57358997/desecration-of-the-dead-is-as-old-as-war-itself/ to http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57358997/desecration-of-the-dead-is-as-old-as-war-itself/
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080918030805/http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2006/06/08/haditha/index.html to http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2006/06/08/haditha/index.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070415194701/http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=23219 to http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=23219
			*Added {{tlx\|dead link}} tag to http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/27/124438.shtml
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110605084806/http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11335 to http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11335
			*Added {{tlx\|dead link}} tag to http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20070509-9999-7m9haditha.html

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	Is this a picture of an Iraqi civilian?

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	* http://vietnamnet.vn/dataimages/200511/original/images817921_jordan_woman_bomber.jpg

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 03:06, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
	Is this a story describing an Iraqi civilian?

			== External links modified ==
	<blockquote>''A '''child''' thought to be just ten years old, wearing an explosives belt, has died in a roadside explosion at the al-Quds intersection, near the oil rich city of Kirkuk. The 'suicide' attack occurred as a car carrying a senior Iraqi police official, Colonel Khatab, passed by. ''</blockquote>

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Could someone describe an Iraqi civilian and differentiate that person from an Insurgent....
	] 19:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:Attempting to justify or diminish war crimes on the basis of incompetence or necessity is seriously offensive. Please don't use wikipedia as a soapbox for your extremist views.  ] 02:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150923210837/http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/19/38286.htm to http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/19/38286.htm

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	::Aha, so the wikipedians who are zealously tagging the subjects of this investigation with a premature and unfounded "war crimes" category are, what, noble servants of the ICC? Everyone's got an agenda. --] 03:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

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	:: Nice attempt at avoiding my question...I'll try another way. The article starts with the sentence ''"The Haditha massacre is a massacre of civilians reportedly committed by United States Marines on "''. I think it is entirely relevant to ask how a Marine in Iraq should differentiate between a civilian and the "enemy". Is a civilian a woman or child who '''doesn't''' try to blow the Marine up? ''(btw, I like how you label me as extremist...I show you a picture of an Iraqi woman suicide bomber and post a story of a 10 year old Iraqi bomber...and '''I'm''' the extremist...forgive me.)'' ] 22:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 20:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

			== Possibly unnecessary link ==

			Should the word "anonymous" in "The investigation found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians", according to an ] Pentagon official," be linked? I think the readers know what anonymous means, we don't ] to ] the ] with ].
	----et

			] (]) 16:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
	About the State of Forces Agreement (SOFA):

	Have you a link? I don't see it on the US State Dep't website http://www.state.gov/s/l/treaty/54265.htm (...which doesn't mean it doesn't exist...).
			:I assume the author was trying to make sure it was understood that this was the journalistic version of "anonymous", but I agree that it is ''probably'' unnecessary to wiki-link it here. People most likely understand what is meant. ] (]) 15:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
	While, indeed, a SOFA is very common, I query whether the existing Iraqi gov't has got it together enough to accede to one. Even without a SOFA, the chances of this Iraq gov't prosecuting Americans for anything at all is pratically nil. ] 07:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)rewinn

			== Claim of suicide without citation ==

			The lines "In 2011, Sharratt's lawsuit was dismissed by the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals. Sharratt killed himself at his home in Pennsylvania on August 3, 2022. He was 37." include 3 citations:

			- <nowiki>https://web.archive.org/web/20150923210837/http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/19/38286.htm</nowiki> a record of the court dismissal mentioned in the first sentence above

			- <nowiki>https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10110591811606638&set=a.10101634311289078</nowiki> a Facebook obituary post from Sharratt's sister that can be argued has a vague implication of suicide

			- <nowiki>https://www.greenleefuneralhome.com/obituary/justin-sharratt</nowiki> the official obituary posted by the funeral home (which can also be found in the local paper https://www.observer-reporter.com/obituaries/2022/aug/10/justin-louis-sharratt/)


			Based on the FB post, one could make the case it is reasonable to assume Sharratt took his own life, but is that enough to justify the definitive statement "killed himself" used in the quoted line above? I mostly ask as a clarification of Misplaced Pages's standards on details like specifying the manner of death of a real person. ] (]) 15:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

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Possibly unnecessary link

Should the word "anonymous" in "The investigation found evidence that "supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot civilians", according to an anonymous Pentagon official," be linked? I think the readers know what anonymous means, we don't want to clutter the page with links.

Woozybydefault (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I assume the author was trying to make sure it was understood that this was the journalistic version of "anonymous", but I agree that it is probably unnecessary to wiki-link it here. People most likely understand what is meant. Foilnewt (talk) 15:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Claim of suicide without citation

The lines "In 2011, Sharratt's lawsuit was dismissed by the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals. Sharratt killed himself at his home in Pennsylvania on August 3, 2022. He was 37." include 3 citations:

- https://web.archive.org/web/20150923210837/http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/07/19/38286.htm a record of the court dismissal mentioned in the first sentence above

- https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10110591811606638&set=a.10101634311289078 a Facebook obituary post from Sharratt's sister that can be argued has a vague implication of suicide

- https://www.greenleefuneralhome.com/obituary/justin-sharratt the official obituary posted by the funeral home (which can also be found in the local paper https://www.observer-reporter.com/obituaries/2022/aug/10/justin-louis-sharratt/)

Based on the FB post, one could make the case it is reasonable to assume Sharratt took his own life, but is that enough to justify the definitive statement "killed himself" used in the quoted line above? I mostly ask as a clarification of Misplaced Pages's standards on details like specifying the manner of death of a real person. Foilnewt (talk) 15:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

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