Talk:War crime: Difference between revisions

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	== Definition is incorrect ==
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	There are a number of inaccuracies with this article. First off, it defines war crimes incorrectly. If it, unfortunately, not true that "Every violation of the law of war is a war crime." The laws of armed conflict ('international humanitarian law' or IHL) consist of many rules that bind the behavior of '''states''', but only some rules are considered serious enough that they lead to criminal prosecution of '''individuals.''' It is that subset of violations of IHL that can be considered war crimes. Also, the article refers to war crimes as being part of human rights law; as described above, they are part of IHL, which is actually a separate body of international law, though of course they have complementary interests.
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			==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment==
			] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-08-31">31 August 2021</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2021-12-07">7 December 2021</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ].

			{{small\|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 12:38, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}}
	Agreed. The errors above should be fixed. In addition, I don't know that the distinction between internal and international armed conflict is necessary any longer. Violations of IHL committed during a purely internal armed conflict may not be considered Grave Breaches of the Geneva Conventions, but they will almost certainly fall under Common Article 3 (of the Geneva Conventions) or as violations of the laws and customs of war (previously customary international law, but now codified in the Rome Statute).
			== Arbitrary nature of article ==

			Per the multiple issues tag I've added, this article (while it may be eligible for ] status) is extremely limited in its scope in discerning the broader aspects of the concept 'War Crime', the predominant interest being that of international law.
	==George H.W. Bush==
	"Condemnation" is not charging. We're talking about people who've actually gone to trial here. ] 06:14, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

			It also focusses on a few specific examples, employing the use of ] such as 'murdered', 'massacre' and other descriptors which have not cited ] for the use of the terminology.
	You're going to need a better source than an off-handed comment by Chomsky to place someone in a shortlist of of war criminals. I can't find a primary source for this or even a decent secondary source. The International Court of Justice (World Court) does not list any case whatever involving the U.S. and Panama and a search of their site does not even mention Bush's name. Further, even if there were a case (which there isn't) the WC decides complaints between nations, it doesn't try individuals. ] 04:36, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

			Input by contributors has been sporadic and decidedly ] in selection of examples, a lack of transparency as to how certain examples have been selected above other pertinent examples, and there is no indication of the use of a tertiary source for the ] of "War crime".
	: Quick gives: , , , , ... I guess that WC archives don't go back to 1986. ] 05:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

			While I consider the subject to be a significant one, the article in itself smacks of ] ]. I will also reiterate previous concerns regarding its being used as a ]. --] (]) 04:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
	::I've done a lot of research in my life and have discovered that all you need is one bad citation that is then picked up over and over, especially by partisans, which describes the sources you're giving, some of which don't even mention the alleged incident and none giving a primary source. If six people repeat a lie it doesn't make it less a lie. The point is I went to the primary source, and it just isn't there. -- ] 05:28, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
			:Not sure what you mean ("limited in its scope in discerning the broader aspects of the concept 'War Crime', the predominant interest being that of international law"). I thought the "concept" as described in RS is pretty close to that in international law. In any event, you are welcome to contribute here. ] (]) 23:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
			::{{reply to\|Iryna Harpy\|My very best wishes}} ] is still somewhat limited in its scope; for instance, it doesn't mention ] or the ]. ] (]) 15:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
			:::This is wrong page because it is about the concept in general. Such info can be included to page ], but it is already seems to be included there, see and other sections.] (]) 15:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	::The International Court of Justice Records go back to 1947 with UK vs Albania. I'll comment that Chomsky seems to "know" many things that noone else has heard of. If you see him say something, you should look for a primary source. -- ] 05:31, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
	''''
	What's the source you're refering to? Could you put a link here, please? If not, I'll pick it up in a little while. ] 11:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	:Original cite came from the now-banned ]. ] 04:38, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
	::? I can't see him ever editing the article? ] 05:17, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
	::Meeler, please provide evidence for this assertion. ] 11:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	== Should there be a list of (percieved?) war crimes? ==
	Should there be a page listing cases which appear, or are possibly perceived by many individuals, to be war crimes?

			I have just modified 7 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	I think this would be a worthwhile project. For one thing, its not information collated elsewhere. For another it might make people think. I'd like to add this, but solicit other opinions first.
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140221161712/http://cil.nus.edu.sg/1949/1949-geneva-convention-i-for-the-amelioration-of-the-condition-of-the-wounded-and-sick-in-armed-forces-in-the-field/ to http://cil.nus.edu.sg/1949/1949-geneva-convention-i-for-the-amelioration-of-the-condition-of-the-wounded-and-sick-in-armed-forces-in-the-field/
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100419104833/http://ihl.ihlresearch.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.viewpage&pageid=2083 to http://ihl.ihlresearch.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.viewpage&pageid=2083
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081231051315/http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/quarter-giving-no.html to http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/quarter-giving-no.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080114162221/http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf to http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090406030617/http://www.adh-geneva.ch/RULAC/ to http://www.adh-geneva.ch/RULAC
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131207221121/http://www.crimesofwar.org/ to http://www.crimesofwar.org/
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080501184018/http://www.sc-sl.org/ to http://www.sc-sl.org/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	* Page now added ] ] 16:18, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Moved from ] ==
	Nowhere in this article is any mention of a count of deaths of Iraqi police, soldiers and recruits. Nor is there a count of civilian deaths caused by reactionary forces operating in Iraq. I've scoured the internet and find nothing. Maybe these victims are not important?!
	Also, the statistics at this site would mean more if there were some comparisons (or links to such), such as the number of civilian deaths caused by the Allied D-Day invasion in combating Fascism, that is, to recent wars. According to the above statement, the Allies would have been responsible for French deaths, oddly insinuating that the war against Hitler would have been somehow illegal. Also, the statistics seem for many here more important than the idealogy behind the "insurgents". No interest in that, ....? ] 19:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
	:Certainly there have been criticisms of the allies for bombing German civilians, yes. ] has described the principles of the ] thus:
	'' ... you have to ask yourself what was called a "war crime"? How did they decide what was a war crime at Nuremberg and Tokyo? And the answer is pretty simple, and not very pleasant. There was a criterion. Kind of like an operational criterion. If the enemy had done it and couldn't show that we had done it, then it was a war crime. So like bombing of urban concentrations was not concidered a war crime because we had done it more than the Germans and Japanese. ... Bombing Dresden is not a war crime because we did it.''
	: And that formed the basis for the UN conventions, for the Geneva convention; the trials an Nuremburg, etc. However, it can be argued that every president has violated those rules: (Search for "I've done that in print a couple of times.") From his point of view, it's then not surprising that the President disregards the UN.
	:This doesn't belong here. I'm going to post it here then move it to ].
	: ] 10:53, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
	:There's no lack of interest, it's just not the subject of this article. There's lots of info about the insurgents at ]. As for certain counts not appearing in this article, the problem is, they don't exist (as you've seen by scouring the internet). We can't give counts that aren't known. ] 22:30, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:16, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
	== Heads of state? ==

			== See also: Weapons of mass destruction ==
	The reference to heads of state seems incorrect. Tojo, for instance, was surely not the head of state in Japan -- that would have been the Emperor. Similarly for the German example.

			Regarding with edit summary: "Article does not mention Weapons of mass destruction. Please explain at Talk:War crime how this relates, and allow consensus to form before including." {{ping\|KalHolmann}} If you search for "biological", "chemical", and "atomic", you'll see that the article does in fact discuss weapons of mass destruction. It doesn't use the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" which make it hard to link to that overview article. That's why I added it to the "See also" section. The ] article has perhaps the best discussion of whether or not the use of WMD should be considered a war crime, but if someone wants to learn more about the status of WMD in the world today (and thus potential war criminals) then I thought being able to click over to ] is helpful for readers. Does that make sense? -- ] (]) 19:36, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
	]

			:{{ping\|Beland}} no, it does not make sense. The article's Definition section states, "In regard to the strategic bombing during World War II, it should be noticed that at the time, there was no international treaty or instrument protecting a civilian population specifically from attack by aircraft, therefore the aerial attacks on civilians were not officially war crimes." This article is about actual war crimes, not about what you call "potential war criminals," which would violate the policy ]. Your new link to ] is better because this article does specifically discuss mass killing. Please, let's not stray too far afield. ] (]) 20:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
	== Peace Crimes ==

			::{{ping\|KalHolmann}} I don't think the addition of a "see also" link to ] is an example of Misplaced Pages making a prediction about the future; it's just a link to a related topic. And there's any number of reasons why readers might want more information on that related topic; my explanation above is just an example of one motivation which I happened to have myself while reading the article. Some uses of chemical and biological weapons ''have'' been prosecuted as war crimes, and this article does discuss them, so I'm not quite understanding the argument that they are unrelated? Did you want pointers to documentation of such incidents? -- ] (]) 20:46, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
	''Recently there have also appeared testimonies of "peace crimes" committed against the Nazi children in the peace time after the war, after 1945, as part of the victors' celebration. These peace crimes reflect the complexity of justice when the winners' mentality dominates in international criminal tribunals.''

			:::{{ping\|Beland}} although this article contains internal links to ] and ], it mentions only one individual charged with war crimes for using chemical weapons (]) and none charged with war crimes for using biological weapons. Note that in defining ], Misplaced Pages includes not only chemical and biological, but also ], ], and other ]. Introducing a link to ] would misleadingly broaden the article's scope, falsely implying that war crimes have been proven in cases involving WMD other than chemical. I believe we should limit our "See also" links to what is strictly relevant to this article. Hopefully, other editors will weigh in and we can forge consensus. ] (]) 21:23, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
	Does this belong? What are "Peace Crimes"? Why blur the distinction between War Crimes and other acts of barbarism in the middle of an article on war crimes?

			::::{{ping\|KalHolmann}} Well, people have also been sentenced as war criminals for use of biological weapons; see ]. Some people think that the use of nuclear weapons on Japan was a war crime (on the grounds of disproportionate civilian casualties) that just hasn't been prosecuted because the using power was a global superpower. This article notes that those bombings and strategic bombings were never ruled war crimes, but it still mentions the controversy despite it not being taken up in an actual proceeding. Anyway, if we want to link to articles on aspects of WMD more closely related to war crimes (not a bad idea, given the length of the list here) perhaps we should be focusing on "the treaties that regulate weapons" the breaking of which during wartime would be considered war crimes, regardless of the treaties that some people argue apply to indiscriminate weapons of any type. In that case, ] might be a better choice. ] has a list of treaties which include those that apply to civilian-targeting weapons like land mines. Would those be better links in your view? -- ] (]) 23:51, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
	== NPOV ==

			:::::{{ping\|Beland}} subsection '''4.1 Country listings''' contains an internal link to ], which in turn links to ]. It may be that the editors who wrote this article were not unaware of Khabarovsk, yet considered it better dealt with elsewhere. I think that's a wise approach. Broadening our scope to encompass WMD and its various offshoots such as treaties risks losing the focus on war crimes. But again, we have clearly established our respective positions, and ought now to patiently await input from other editors. ] (]) 01:53, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
	I'm concerned that the last paragraph may not be NPOV, because it seems to imply not merely that the dropping of the atom bombs and the treatment of the East Timorese may have been war crimes, but that they were. ] 23:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
	: It has been edited, but I'm not sure if such alleged examples should be mentioned at all. ] 00:05, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

			::::::I doubt there was ever a conscious decision not to mention that particular trial; it's certainly on-topic. I wasn't suggesting that it be included in the article, only offering it as a counter-example to dispel the idea that no one has ever been prosecuted for war crimes involving biological weapons. Though thinking about it, given that it's an unusually direct example specifically related to war crimes (not some part of WMD unrelated to war crimes), it should probably be mentioned in the article to avoid giving the impression that this sort of thing has never happened. -- ] (]) 03:00, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
	== George W. Bush ==
			:::::::@] What about the second degree murder charge being used on programmers due to automation of drones for example, and genetic enhancements? ] (]) 20:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::{{reply\|72.83.128.234}} I'm not sure what you're referring to. Could you point me to some sources for more information on the both of those? -- ] (]) 20:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

			== I dont believe the subsection "Saudi Arabian-led Military Intervention in Yemen" (under the section "History") is relevat ==
	I've noticed that there have been multiple instances where someone has put George W. Bush's biography at I removed the link, just thought that you might want to keep an eye on it. - ] 11:13, 9 December 2005

			The content briefly discusses the humanitarian impact of the war in Yemen, but I do not believe it is relevant to the history of war crimes. If one wanted to keep this paragraph in that section, it should make mention of explicit war crimes that have been found by an appropriate war crimes court - all the other sections refer to courts and the war crimes that the courts found. Since there hasn't been such a court as far as I know (i could be wrong), I think that this section should be removed. Could somebody please chime in and advise?
	== Is the Hussein trial a war-crimes tribunal? ==

			] (]) 01:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
	I was under the impression that Hussein is being tried locally under Iraqi law, not as part of a UN-sanctioned war-crimes tribunal. --] 06:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			== Add page about Chinese war crimes ==
	:No, it is not a war crime tribunal. The murder of your own civilians by the government is murder, not a war crime. It's also being described as "crimes against humanity." That may be an accurate statement, but it doesn't have much legal meaning.
			Theres should be a page about Chinese war crimes. It has a claimed 3000+ years of history and it is littered with war crimes. The page ] was deleted thrice in 2007, but it should be added. -] (]) 10:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

			== Include Sri Lankan war crimes ==
	Also, as a technical point, the UN does not have to sanction war-crimes tribunals. -- ] 07:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

			Please include a non biased entry about Sri Lankan war crimes during the internal conflict within the country by both the Sri Lankan government and the LTTE, which resulted thousands of Tamils civilians get brutally killed by bombardments, torture and so on.
			mention the Sri Lankan war criminals list as well for furthur references. ] (]) 15:41, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

			== Semi-protection edit request ==

			I think we need some protection in this article, as some people may be biased and say that a certain country did a lot of war crimes because they hate them. ] (]) 17:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

			== Edit recommendation ==

			In the “United Nations” section, the last bullet point should read “ Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated”.

			Currently, it is missing “overall military advantage anticipated”. Due to semi-protection I cannot fix it myself. ] (]) 07:36, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

			Hello
			Shouldn't the list of heads of state wanted for war crimes, now include the Israeli prime minister? As I understand it, there's still an active ICC warrant on him and his defence minister, for war crimes in Gaza.
			Ps: sorry, I don't know how to site references.
			] (]) 00:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

			== "]" listed at ] ==
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Arbitrary nature of article

Per the multiple issues tag I've added, this article (while it may be eligible for WP:GNG status) is extremely limited in its scope in discerning the broader aspects of the concept 'War Crime', the predominant interest being that of international law.

It also focusses on a few specific examples, employing the use of loaded language such as 'murdered', 'massacre' and other descriptors which have not cited WP:RS for the use of the terminology.

Input by contributors has been sporadic and decidedly WP:BIASED in selection of examples, a lack of transparency as to how certain examples have been selected above other pertinent examples, and there is no indication of the use of a tertiary source for the WP:TITLE of "War crime".

While I consider the subject to be a significant one, the article in itself smacks of WP:POV WP:SYNTH. I will also reiterate previous concerns regarding its being used as a WP:COATRACK. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:57, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean ("limited in its scope in discerning the broader aspects of the concept 'War Crime', the predominant interest being that of international law"). I thought the "concept" as described in RS is pretty close to that in international law. In any event, you are welcome to contribute here. My very best wishes (talk) 23:08, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy and My very best wishes: This list is still somewhat limited in its scope; for instance, it doesn't mention war crimes during the Sri Lankan Civil War or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Jarble (talk) 15:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

This is wrong page because it is about the concept in general. Such info can be included to page List of war crimes, but it is already seems to be included there, see and other sections.My very best wishes (talk) 15:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

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I dont believe the subsection "Saudi Arabian-led Military Intervention in Yemen" (under the section "History") is relevat

The content briefly discusses the humanitarian impact of the war in Yemen, but I do not believe it is relevant to the history of war crimes. If one wanted to keep this paragraph in that section, it should make mention of explicit war crimes that have been found by an appropriate war crimes court - all the other sections refer to courts and the war crimes that the courts found. Since there hasn't been such a court as far as I know (i could be wrong), I think that this section should be removed. Could somebody please chime in and advise?

QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 01:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Add page about Chinese war crimes

Theres should be a page about Chinese war crimes. It has a claimed 3000+ years of history and it is littered with war crimes. The page ] was deleted thrice in 2007, but it should be added. -Artanisen (talk) 10:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Include Sri Lankan war crimes

Please include a non biased entry about Sri Lankan war crimes during the internal conflict within the country by both the Sri Lankan government and the LTTE, which resulted thousands of Tamils civilians get brutally killed by bombardments, torture and so on. mention the Sri Lankan war criminals list as well for furthur references. 175.157.126.48 (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protection edit request

I think we need some protection in this article, as some people may be biased and say that a certain country did a lot of war crimes because they hate them. 216.107.236.98 (talk) 17:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Edit recommendation

In the “United Nations” section, the last bullet point should read “ Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated”.

Currently, it is missing “overall military advantage anticipated”. Due to semi-protection I cannot fix it myself. 2A01:E0A:4BF:1A10:CED:3067:6F82:1DF5 (talk) 07:36, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello Shouldn't the list of heads of state wanted for war crimes, now include the Israeli prime minister? As I understand it, there's still an active ICC warrant on him and his defence minister, for war crimes in Gaza. Ps: sorry, I don't know how to site references. 2001:8003:E46D:2300:7414:DB4B:DA4B:ADFC (talk) 00:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

"Post-war Germany vs post-war Japan" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Post-war Germany vs post-war Japan has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 26 § Post-war Germany vs post-war Japan until a consensus is reached. -- Tamzin (they|xe) 01:38, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

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