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== Seyyid Pir-e Horosan Hac-e Bektas-i Veli == |
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The informations on the main site have to be corrected: |
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* Hac-e Bektas Veli is a ethnic Turk, on the father side |
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* his title "hace" means, people do hacc to him! not he is doing hacc to mecca |
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* he is a Seyyid, a ancestor of the prophet Muhammed on the mother side, he is from the descent of prophet Ismael |
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] (]) 06:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== Prove the ethnicity == |
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It is important, because the Turks, Persians and Kurds in argument about his origin. It is saying that Musa-i Kazim was his grand-grandfather, but he can´t be the decenders of Imam Musa-i Kazim. It is´nt anyway possible. Please prove this fact. If he was really from Chorassan - what i also think, because he preaches the Persian-Zoroastrian philosophie about drinking wine and dancing the Semah (like rumi had preaches) - then he was a Persian. And there is some other facts that confirm me and my minds about Haci Bektas Veli Persian origin. Omar khayyam,Abu l-Wafa, Fariduddin Attar, Firdausi, Hafes (Shiraz-i) are the childeren of the Islamic Golden Age. Most of them was´nt really muslims. They alle were Alevis, even Avicenna - though he was a sunni. It doenst matter which confession these people was belong, it is there attitude and how they was thinking about the Islam. |
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:Misplaced Pages is not in the business of proof, we simply report what ] say about a subject, and when there is disagreement we try to present all sides of an argument in proportion to their significance. ] (]) 15:13, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:: The claim that he was a descendant of ] is not reliable at all. In fact, it is refuted by most experts. He was ''most likely'' a Persian from Khorasan, though this is not known for sure. His works were composed in Arabic and later translated into Turkish. The name "Baktash" was not his real name but given to him by his Turkoman followers. --] (]) 17:06, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::It is sources, not claims, that we evaluate, but in any case I don't see Musa al-Kadhim in the article, what have I missed? ] (]) 18:17, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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== Fake reference on his ethnicity == |
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I read the discussion about the ethnicity of him and couldn't stop to laugh either as I read that he is Persian! Than I looked up for the references which 'proves' that he is Persian. Here the full text of the 'The Harvard Theological Review, Cambridge University Press, Vol. 2, No. 3, Jul., 1909, (p. 343)': <blockquote>...THE ALEVIS, OR DEIFIERS OF ALI 343 |
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ing and for the moral training of their followers. All gatherings |
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are very secret, no inquirers being admitted except by the most |
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reliable introductions. |
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In Arabia and Egypt this faith has scarcely made any progress. |
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But in Persia and Mesopotamia there are from two to three million |
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Alevis. There are about fifty thousand in the province of |
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Aleppo, but none south of the city of Aleppo. In the Adana, |
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Diarbekir, Smyrna, Salonica, and Caesarea provinces there are |
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tens of thousands. Haji Bektash, where descendants of Ali live, |
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eighteen hours from Caesarea, is an important point. Constantinople |
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is not a centre, but in Macedonia a large portion of the population |
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have become disciples. In the city of Aintab there are |
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about five hundred Alevi homes and two thousand individual believers. |
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In Antioch there are scarcely any, except for the Nuseiri |
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villages.The villages of Marash and the town and region of Albustan |
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should be specially mentioned. In the Suruj plain the |
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people are Sunnis. Most of the Aintab villages are Sunni, as |
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Burj and Kuzul Hissar. Kuchdam is chiefly Yezid. But beyond |
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Sazghun to the south are many Alevi villages centring around |
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Kharar. The population of the Kilis country is chiefly Arab |
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and unfriendly to outsiders. But the tent-dwellers are Alevi. |
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In Birejik about one hundred and fifty of the Turkish people |
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belong to this faith. In the city and villages of Urfa there are few; |
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in Aleppo few; in Antioch perhaps two hundred houses. The |
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most thoroughly converted district is that of Dersim, in the Erzingan |
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vilayet. The length of this district is fifteen days' horseback |
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ride. |
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Essential Teaching concerning Prophecy. In the world there |
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is one Truth. This Truth possesses great power. There is no |
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power existing greater than this. The Power is in itself, not dependent |
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upon any person. All other existing things get their |
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light and might from this one truth. This Power "doeth what |
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it wisheth and judgeth what it willeth." |
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Nothing can attack and overturn this Power. In the process |
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of time the Power brought to light the charges and commandments |
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that were necessary for that period. For instance, in the |
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time of Moses what was necessary for the people was said by Ali |
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by means of Moses...</blockquote> |
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Does that prove that he is Persian? There is no information about him at all! This page tells about ] lol The fourth reference is just a personal website by someone, can't be counted as a reference at all, so I delete it. I couldn't find the full text of the first three references but I believe they are also some fake references of a Persian nationalist.. I suggest to leave the claim that he was Persian in the article page but to put his real Turkish ethnicity in the beginning sentence.] (]) 03:26, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Haji_Bektash_Veli&diff=next&oldid=457539153 A sock puppet is the owner of fake ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Dohezarsersdah ] (]) 03:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:Also http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Haji_Bektash_Veli&diff=next&oldid=457608668. All the references that he is Persian are fake by a sock puppet user. I'm converting the article to the original form. ] (]) 03:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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::It would appear that someone added Persian under the guise of "real" references. If you look on the talk page back to Oct. 2011, I added some references that stated he was Turkish. Unfortunately, when someone removes references, it is a common reaction to simply revert the removal and not check to see the verifiability of the references. --] (]) 04:03, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Yes I noticed them and looked up for them, too. Your citations are still in the article page. I suggest to notice admins to protect this page against nationalist and vandal users. Thank you for your contribution. ] (]) 04:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::Please please when you discuss something on a talk page mention this in an edit summary! Calling them 'fake' isn't enough, pov editors do that too. I'm still not sure we can assert as fact that he is Turkish, but I've already wasted time on this. ] (]) 09:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*] quoted from the work of ]: ''Amurath I. (Murad I) had formed them into a body, he sent them to Haji Bektash, a Turkish saint, famous for his miracles and prophecies, desiring him to give bestow on them a banner, to pray to God for their success, and to give them a name.'' If users read that book, it's easy for them to understand that Robertson used the term not for "ethnic Turks" but for "of Turkey". |
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*Mark Soileau used the sentence "Haji Bektash was a Turk." as the view of ] to explain trend in the Republican Turkey on Baji Bektash's ethnicity . ] (]) 11:34, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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* (Mehrdad Kia, ''Daily Life in the Ottoman Empire'', p. 169.) |
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* (Adrian Room, ''Placenames of the World: Origins And Meanings of the Names for 6,600 Countries, Cities, Territories, Natural Features And Historic Sites'', p. 155.) |
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** But in those books, the term "Persian" may be used for "from Persia", may be used for "Persian-language writer". |
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** I think both claims on his ethnic origin are not decisive. But there is an undoubted fact: he was a ]. ] (]) 11:47, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, you're right as well. But please don't expect that people will turn thumbs up with fake references on his 'Persian ethnicity'. I think the actual state of the article is much more better than the old one with fake references of blocked users. Besides, there is no scientific evidence on this page on his Persian decent either; but only some nationalist attacks by Lysozym (old username: Tajik) and other attacks by several sock puppets. I will be keeping the actual status till someone reliable will remake a complete new paragraph on the thoughts/evidences about his ethnicity with NPOV ] (]) 12:52, 13 January 2013 (UTC) |
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: I do not understand, why his ethnicity - which is not really known - has to be mentioned in the lead?! Secondly, none of the sources presented by Sbasturk actually proves that he was a Turk. It is a collection of tertiary sources, none of them are very reliable when it comes to his origins. The only ''real'' academic source given in the article is the ], which makes clear that all that is known about him is that he hailed from Khorasan and hence ''may have been'' an Iranian. But it is just an assumption. I am going to ignore the personal attacks by ]. And, as his real already suggests, we should not expets much transperancyx and neutrality from him. All he does is googling the words "Haji Baktash" and "Turk" and than thinks that he can change context. But Misplaced Pages is about the quality of sources, not about quantity. This goes to both sides. --] (]) 00:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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: As long as I understand, '''' is the only source uses "Turkish" as ethnicity, among existing source (in this article). I think he had to use the term "Turkic family", although it's another problem. The author of that section is Ibrahim Kalin. Do you know whether Ibrahim Kalin is the same person as İbrahim Kalın, who is the Deputy Undersecretary of the Prime Ministry of the Republic of Turkey ? ] (]) 00:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*As to Sayyed Hossein Nasr, ''Sufi Essays'', SUNY Press, 1972, p. 117. Do you find the term "Persian descent" in ? ] (]) 00:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:: According to ]: " the Baktashi order, founded by a Khurasani, Hajji Baktash, who after fleeing from the Tatars found numerous disciples among the Persians and Anatolian Turks " Another fake ref to be deleted. ] (]) 10:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*As long as I understand, related articles in the ] dont't mention to his ethnicity. See: & . ] (]) 01:16, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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::I can't understand either, how ]is given as the main reference (as written fully) in the text.. Will be deleted, too. ] (]) 10:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*As to C. Olsen: Celibacy and Religious Traditions. Oxford University Press. 1st ed., 2007. P. 143: "The Bektashis trace their origins to Hajji Bektash Vali (d. ca. 1271), an Iranian Sufi ". The author wrote . "Iranian" is not equal to ethnic Persian. ] (]) 01:20, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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* doesn't mention to his ethnicity. ] (]) 01:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Sayyed Hossein Nasr uses the word "Khurasani" which is by far the most correct of all. It does not explicitely state that he was an Iranian, but "Khurasani" is very much a common designation of East Iranian Persians. I have added the quote to the article. The only two authoritative sources used - the respective EI2 and EIr - either do not mention his ethnic origins (as in the EI2 which simply claims that he was from Khurasan), or support the Iranian theory (] - who is without any doubt an expert on the subject as has evaluated primary sources - uses the expression "highly probable ... that his origins were Iranian"). All the rest are googled quotes from certain books, none of them can be considered "secondary". They are "tertiary sources" at best. I have removed nazr-e-kaaba.com. It is not a "source" at all. As for "Persian" and "Iranian": in this context, they are used as synonyms, especially as a contrast to "Arab" and "Turk". Also worthy of note: Hajji Bektash wrote all of his works in Arabic, not Persian and not Turkish. And the name "Baktash" is attributed to him in later biographies and legends; it is unknown what his real name was. --] (]) 01:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Just like the fake references of ], her/his information is also limited and fake. He has written both in Arabic and Turkish. Probably his works written in Turkish overcount the ones in Arabic. Please read the page 372 as an introduction to that. |
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http://books.google.de/books?id=wivA2z2koOgC&pg=PA372&lpg=PA372&dq=Fevaid+bektash&source=bl&ots=C23vNVWAoq&sig=bddyWAuAl7g9Xe8zbFSbAF-WQH4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fCj1UKWfGIKs4AS-2ICAAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=372&f=false I'll be removing some of her/his edits because of the lack of NPOV ] (]) 10:07, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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*Users' personal explanation are not accepted as ]. '''Please remove all "fake references" on his ethnicity of both sides.''' ] (]) 01:27, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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::: @ Sbasturk: it is very obvious, that you do not have the slightest competence in this subject. The ], for example, writes: ''"A record of his own teachings and beliefs is contained in the Maqālāt (also known as Küçük Vilâyet-Nâme), the only book reliably attributed to him. It seems to have been written originally in Arabic Two Persian treatises have been attributed to Ḥājī Bektāš: Fawāʾed and Maqālāt-e ḡaybīya wa kalemāt-e ʿaynīya (copies of both in ms. Osman Ergin, İstanbul Belediye Kütüphanesi, 1948). Both consist of unacknowledged borrowings from the writings of Sufis who lived either before or after Ḥājī Bektāš and must therefore be regarded as inauthentic. Also incorrect is the attribution to Ḥājī Bektāš of a brief šaṭḥīya in Turkish, written by a certain Anwarī, a name wrongly taken to be the maḵlaṣ of Ḥājī Bektāš."'' The ] writes: ''" the Makalat of Hadjdji Bektash, originally written in Arabic and translated into Turkish verse by Khatiboghlu The attitude of Bektashis towards Islam is marked both by the general features of popular mysticism, and by their far-reaching disregard for Muslim ritual and worship, including the salat. In their secret doctrines, they are Shi'is, acknowleding the twelve imams and, in particular, holding Dja'far al-Sadiq in high esteem."'' As for the book you have posted above (M. Soileau: Humanist mystics : nationalism and the commemoration of saints in Turkey, Santa Barbara, 2006), it clearly says on p. 373: ''"None of these works can conclusively be attributed to Haji Bektash, and thus none can be taken as proof for his Turkishness"''. This sentence is followed by some allegations by the author, while he concludes with ''"Neither the Vilayet-name nor the works attributed to him mention his ethnicity, other than references in the Vilayet-name of his having originated in Khorasan "''; the claim that he was a disciple of Ahmad Yasavi is very obviously wrong since they did not even live in the same century. Stop cherry picking sources and sentences. It is strange anyway that you are trying to prove your point by cherry-picking from a book that is discussing and examining the revisionist policy of the Turkish Repiblic and the various claims of "Turkishness" in this context. --] (]) 10:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC) |
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== Classic Study in English == |
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Please note this classic treatment of the subject in English, which has been in print since 1937 and is noted several times on Google books, as here; http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PAgcMwEACAAJ&dq=%22the+bektashi+order+of+dervishes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BkQgUZCdDsfvsgbLiYCwCQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw |
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I removed the NN tag since the text seems now to reflect the sources fairly and there is no extant dispute on this page. |
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Thanks, ] (]) 02:48, 17 February 2013 (UTC) |
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==Religious Identity?== |
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In the opening he is referred to as "Alevi," however the article includes the Sunni series. Also, in the Turkish article it includes the Sunni series as well, but in more detail. Are there any good sources that clarify his religious identity? ] (]) 11:29, 23 July 2015 (UTC) |
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== ZinedineZidane98 care to explain? == |
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Would ZinedineZidane98 care to explain why he is linking Turkic languages for the ethnicity of Haji Bektash Veli? According to ZinedineZidane, "'' just making clear the distinction between Turkic (everywhere from NW China to Anatolia) and Turkish (people of the modern Republic..''", which is unsupported by the sources.<br> |
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Sources: |
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*Richard Robert Madden, ''The Turkish Empire:In its relations with Christianity and civilization'', Vol.1, 335; "''...he sent them to Haji Bektash, a '''Turkish''' saint.''" |
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*Indries Shah, ''The Way of the Sufi'', 294; "..Bektash of the Turks..." |
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*Mark Soileau, ''Humanist Mystics:Nationalism and the commemoration of saints in Turkey'', 375; "''Haji Bektash was a Turk.''". |
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*University of Georgia, Islam and Islamic Studies Resources, Islamic Studies, Islam, Arabic, and Religion page of Dr. Godlas., "''..Haji Bektash Veli is one of the most significant Anatolian ('''Turkish''') Sufi saints..''" |
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*''Futuwwa Traditions in the Ottoman Empire Akhis, Bektashi Dervishes, and Craftsmen'',G. G. Arnakis, '''Journal of Near Eastern Studies''', Vol. 12, No. 4, Oct., 1953. --"''...we see at once a man that made a lasting impression on his fellow Turks.''" |
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*Bryan S. Turner, ''Islam: Islam and social movements'', p.281, "''In the lives of '''Turkish''' saints such as Ahmed Yasavi or Haji Bektash we find many tales about miracles which ...''. --] (]) 01:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140408214035/http://teqeamerica.com/articles/article1/ to http://teqeamerica.com/articles/article1/ |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140408214035/http://teqeamerica.com/articles/article1/ to http://teqeamerica.com/articles/article1/ |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 02:05, 28 October 2017 (UTC) |
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== deleted important source placed == |
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On the other hand, ] reports that ] tendencies belonged not to him but rather to his ]s, who took refuge in his ] at ''Suluca Kara Oyuk'' in ] after the ].<ref>], ''Shakāyik.''</ref>] (]) 17:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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== ] == |
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== ] == |
I can only think of Turkish nomads,Kurds and Armenians,Turkic people were and (some people say) are not Turkish due to no mixing happening but because of Turkish Language Association ditching Arabic and Persian due to racism or something. Just my guess. I would edit it to Anatolian nomads. Vofa (talk) 12:45, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
The book citation doesn’t correspond with any info,to my conclusion it’s a fake link,the book is not accessible,book is about Byzantium. Still not sure whether to edit or not,I’ll go for it if nobody replies. Vofa (talk) 12:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
.jpg){kind=small}
