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{| class="messagebox standard-talk" |
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This article is within the scope of the ''']''', |
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a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Homeopathy. If you would like to participate, |
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you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. |
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This weekend, supporters of homeopathy are celebrating the 250th anniversary of the birth of Samuel Hahnemann |
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*Given the short nature of this article, as part of a series on famous people in CAM, I have to question that almost half of the article is spent on two rather unimportant issues related to his life's work - namely the reference to Dr. Quinn (why not mention all the others who started a hospital or introduced Hahnemann's system into their country?) and the reference to quarantine. What about some major contributions, such as that he was one of the first to talk about hygiene, the value of fresh air, sunshine, etc., that he fought for the purity of medicines in an age of adulteration, leading homeopaths everywhere to fight for better medical standards, such that in the US and Canada, for example, the homeopaths formed the first medical associations, which the AMA was formed to combat, or that he was a famous chemist and medical translator, his texts used throughout Germany, that he treated royalty, a tradition that continues with the British and Dutch royal families to this day? He was also a strong opponent of "heroic measures" drawing medicines attention back to the Hippocratic nil nocere. |
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Does anyone else feel this article really does Dr. Hahnemann a disservice? --] 02:55, 18 May 2005 (UTC) |
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: no not anymore, it has been improved in the past year a lot I can see from the history list ] 16:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC) |
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* Is it correct to call him Saxon? The page on ] shows that he was born in The Holy Roman Empire, and this page shows he died in France. Can we better call him Holy Roman/Saxon/French Herr Dr Hahnemann? -- ] 02:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC) |
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== Biography == |
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I have added considerable biographical information, which ] has deleted. Is there some reason why Hahnemann's biography should not be included in an article about him? I am restoring the information. ] 21:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC) |
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: While the description of his work and the bibliography are splendid, the biography is woefully incomplete (cf. the German wiki, with a |
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clear separation of the various stations of his life).] 23:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC) |
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== Bibliography == |
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I do not understand the two sub headlines which say "Other works cont´d", please explain what this means, thank you. (I am Pernambuco and I have made many edits to the ] article. ) ] 01:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC) |
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==request from the ] page == |
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I am involved in a cleaning up process of the article ] but it is a lot of work, I could use help from others, if someone wants to help just go there, and I am also active on the Talks page with the user "Debbe" (a wiki-pedia friend of mine who helps there) so thank you in advance for your help with fixing that page ] 21:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC) |
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== Reputation as a scientist == |
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Does this need to be so lengthy? It really has an air of desperately trying to ''prove'' Hahnemann's worth, and could really be about a third of the length without losing much actual information. It is skating over the edge of NPOV, in my opinion. It's even more ironic that that bumf leaves out one of Hahnemann's non-homeopathic achievements - that of discovering a test for arsenic that is still in use today. I'll add the bit about the arsenic test, and see if anyone has comments about the other glurge in the next month or so before I think of a way to edit to something resembling objective fact. ] 11:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC) |
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: yes, I agree, and this is a problem that we have with other homeopathic related articles too, I am working on improving ] in this regards, so if you want to help I say thank you to you ] 13:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC) |
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:: Ditto. I'm going to take a shot at condensing that section down a lot, it isn't really that relevant. ] 22:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC) |
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::: Alright, I took a shot. I hope I haven't been overly harsh, but there really wasn't much there to salvage. The giant list of works he'd translated was not relevant at all, and the bit before that was just constant gushing praise, all from the one source. I kept the bit about the ], since that seems to be verifiable and concrete. ] 22:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC) |
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:::: o.k. well I like most of what you did, it is actually a much better page now, but I have a little concern, and it is that you also took some of the references/sources away. Well, I added one back in, so maybe now it is fine ] 02:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC) |
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::: Seems good to me! Sorry if I did that, I might have been a bit overenthusiastic with my deleting. ] 18:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC) |
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::you sir are an idiot who should be banned from wikipedia ] 21:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Woah, easy, easy. I'm not saying that any of this is true or untrue, it's just not encyclopaedic. It's more like an advertisement than a serious biography. The objective is to summarize the life of Hahnemann, not to interminably list reasons why he's wonderful. Articles on far more prominent and famous scientists are nowhere near as fawning. If you have any reason why this huge list should be kept, please post it here. I'll leave it in place for the moment to give you a chance to reply. ] 00:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC) |
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== Memorial (photo)== |
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FYI, there is a CreativeCommons licensed photo of the Washington D.C. memorial described in this article: . It might be worth uploading to wiki commons. --] 05:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC) |
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== WikiProject class rating== |
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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. ] 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC) |
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== Suggestions == |
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Here are some suggestions for improving the article. |
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* Expand the intro. The intro should be a 'summary' of the entire article. One sentence is no where near enough. |
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* Improve the flow of the article itself by removing quotes where they are not needed and paraphrasing them. |
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*Format the "External links" section. All should contain bullets and the name of the link should be the name of the site. After that you can add a "short" explanation of what the link is. |
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*Format the references. All of them. helps a lot. Also, Newer references from different sources won't hurt either. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC) |
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==Marsh test== |
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''However, the most common test (and used even today in water test kits) was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann. It would involve combining a sample fluid with hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in the presence of hydrochloric acid (HCl). A yellow precipitate, arsenic trisulfide (As2S3) would be formed if arsenic were present.'' ] 17:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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That's not the Marsh test (reaction results not stable). I'll figure a way to rewrite it, but a source would be useful. ] (]) 17:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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Here is a reputable source but I don't have full access...maybe you can check it. ] 18:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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Hahnemann's test for Arsenic is mentioned on page 202 of this book which is also downloadable. ] 18:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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: Actually, I don't think it is. Could you quote from your downloadable source? It appears that Hahnemann is used as a source of legal effacy, not chemical tests. ] (]) 18:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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You can search for the word 'arsenic' on this text which is reputable if not RS. He definitely did pioneering work on arsenic in chemistry and as a poison. I can give published book sources that are not online. ] 18:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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:On page 52 of Trevor Cook, ''Samuel Hahnemann Founder of Homeopathic Medicine,'' UK: Thorson's, 1982 he says "Hahnemann made an indirect contribution to chemistry in publishing a test for wine, which came to be officially adopted in Prussia and known as 'Hahnemann's Wine Test.'...to test for poisonous lead in wine...the basis of the test was the preciptation of the sulphides of lead, mercury, copper and tin by the addition of a solution of hydrogen disulphide (sic; it should be dihydrogen sulphide) gas dissolved in water." are we confusing this wine test with an arsenic test by Marsh?? ] 18:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC) |
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==Ref #9== |
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This ref appears as 'Bradford, op cit' BUT in the html text it should say in an earlier ref: Thomas L Bradford, ''Life and Letters of Hahnemann,'' 1895...blah blah it appears in the html but is not visible in the article footnotes and I can't work out why...can anybody please correct this? thanks ] 20:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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This is where it appears: ''In the Spring of 1811 Hahnemann moved his family back to ] with the intention of teaching his new medical...'' BUT the ref does not appear in the list. weird?? corrected. ] 20:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:The problem was that when you re-use a ref eg <nowiki><ref name=skaylarkbio/></nowiki> you need the backslash each time you re-use it otherwise it isn't formatted as a separate reference. ] (]) 20:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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Right, wonderful. Thanks, Tim! job done. ] 21:04, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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==Bad para== |
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This paragraph: ''Hahnemann tested substances for the effect they produced on a healthy individual and tried to deduce from this the ills they would heal. From his research, he initially concluded that ingesting substances to produce noticeable changes in the organism resulted in toxic effects. He then attempted to mitigate this problem through exploring dilutions of the compounds he was testing. He claimed that these dilutions, when done according to his technique of succussion (systematic mixing through vigorous shaking) and potentization, were still effective in producing symptoms.However, these effects have never been duplicated in clinical trials,and his approach has been universally abandoned by modern medicine.'' is badly written, factually inaccurate and largely unsourced. I propose to try and improve it with better wording and good sources. ] 05:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC) |
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==Born 11 April, not 10 April== |
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tells us: |
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*The baptismal register of Meissen contains the following record : (British Journal of Homeopathy, Vol. 13, p. 525): ''"Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann, born on the morning of the 11th of April, of 1755; baptized the thirteenth day of April of the same year, by M. Junghanns. Father, Christian Gottfried Hahnemann, painter. Mother, Johanna Christiana, born Spiess."'' The worthy pastor, M. Junghannes, was of the Lutheran faith, and the infant was baptized on the Sabbath after its birth according to those tenets. The date of Hahnemann's birth has usually been given as the 10th, and not the 11th of April. The town register gives the 11th, and at the celebration at Meissen, in 1855, of the hundredth birthday, the 11th was the day selected. |
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{{Talk page header|search_term=Samuel Hahnemann}} |
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On that basis, I'm changing the date. -- ] (]) 09:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC) |
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{{Notaforum}} |
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{{annual readership |expanded=|scale=}} |
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It is incorrect he was born 11.45pm on the 10th april. Bradford is NOT a reliable source of info on his life. Everyone else gives 10th check Haehl for example. ] 09:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC) |
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== External links modified == |
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:I agree. According to some German books that are available on the web, Hahnemann celebrated his birthday on the 10th and also put the 10th into his autobiography. One source says that according to his daughters he was born around midnight. I think this would be consistent with "born on the morning of the 11th". Since both dates are arguably correct, it's best to go with the majority. |
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:Or we could say explicitly "midnight 10th/11th". --] (]) 10:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC) |
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Hello fellow Wikipedians, |
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::OK, so we have dispute between reputable sources. When that happens, I think our job is not to "choose a winner" based on the majority opinion, but to state that we don't actually know precisely when he was born, and to report what the differing sources say. Some say it was 11:45 pm on the 10th; some say it was around midnight 10/11th; but the birth registration says it was "the morning of the 11th". I think the birth registration, being the primary source, deserves primacy, even if the majority of secondary sources disagree. We can say that, for example, his birth registration put it on the 11th and the town celebrated his centenary on 11 April 1855, but that Hahnemann himself claimed to have been born on the 10th and many secondary sources use that date. We should be aware that individuals are generally not the best source of information about their own births, particularly when it comes to births around midnight, because they were in no position to form an objective opinion about the time, and they had to rely totally on what they were told, years after the event, by their mothers, who in turn are usually not the best source of objective information because they had their mind on other things at the time. |
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I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: |
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::We can't just assume it happened at the stroke of midnight. No births happen at precisely midnight, because no births happen at a precise moment in time, which is what midnight is. Births take more than a split-second to occur. Probably his mother went into labour on the 10th, and most of the labour occurred on the 10th. But births are dated at the conclusion of labour, not the start of labour, and we don't know exactly when it concluded. It was almost certainly either at least a second before midnight (10th April) or at least a second after (11th April). Even if, in the extreme case, the time-keeper looked at their watch and the second hand was exactly on 12.00:00 at the moment the baby popped out, that still means it was by now 11th April because midnight is the start of the new day, not the end of the previous day. -- ] (]) 01:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101021000237/http://www.minimum.com/reviews/organon-sixth.htm to http://www.minimum.com/reviews/organon-sixth.htm |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080517061612/http://www.hpathy.com/materiamedica/hahnemann-materia-pura/index.asp to http://www.hpathy.com/materiamedica/hahnemann-materia-pura/index.asp |
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120402112637/http://www.library.ucsf.edu/collections/homeopathy to http://www.library.ucsf.edu/collections/homeopathy |
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. |
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No, we do not have a dispute between RELIABLE sources, we have agreement across the board, except for Bradford, which is widely acknowledged as being NOT a reliable source. On that basis, YOU'RE POV pushing and your argument rests on a very flimsy basis. It is an incorrect fabrication. There is nothing more to say; he was born late 10th April. ] 05:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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{{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} |
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:I don't think that's very fair, Peter. My sole interest is accuracy; I have no personal opinion one way or another. I aim to keep an open mind; those who attempt to close down discussions (''"There is nothing more to say"'') might be more relevantly charged with having an inflexible point of view. I know that Misplaced Pages's threshold is verifiability, not truth, and that 10th April is certainly verifiable; but so is 11th April, and we can't just pretend that records supporting that date don't exist. www.suite101.com/article.cfm/homeopathy/90779 says something about the confusion: |
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:* ''On the 10th/11th April 1755 Samuel Christian Hahnemann was born in Meissen, Southeast Germany. The confusion in date arising as a result of him being born very close to the midnight hour: the church records show the date as the 11th; Hahnemann maintains it was the 10th!'' |
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:As I said before, what Hahnemann believed is not significant. Hahnemann could only have been certain it was the 10th by being told second-hand by his mother, the doctor, the midwife, or someone else who was there. If this is the true date, how do we explain the official record showing the birth occurred on the 11th? What does Haehl say about the issue? -- ] (]) 06:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 05:51, 7 December 2017 (UTC) |
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Sorry to have given that impression; I am not trying to close down a discussion. Maybe we can cite a source which says the date is disputed? I happen to know, having studied Hahnemann's life in depth for so long, that Bradford is NOT a reliable source and often gets things wrong. On that basis alone you cannot say he is a reliable source or take as gospel anything he says. That is the basis of my view. Haehl I will check for you, here you go: ''"the physicians of ] have claimed the 11th as his birthday, because it is thus entered in the church register of ]. But I have ascertained from Hahnemann's own daughter that he, Hahnemann, was actually born on April 10th at approximately twelve o'clock midnight. For this reason he celebrated his birthday, until the eighty-ninth year of his life, on the 10th of April. It would therefore be incorrect and unsuitable that on account of error, committed by a beadle one hundred years ago, it should be postponed. Every true follower of Hahnemann will celebrate it like his Master on the 10th."'' (Haehl, volume 1, p.9). I guess you will still continue to argue your case, but this is the most reliable source we have. ] 06:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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* Haehl, Richard (1873-1932). Samuel Hahnemann : his life and work. |
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:No, that's absolutely fine in terms of putting the matter to rest as far as I'm concerned. We have a published statement that the official record was erroneous - end of story. Thanks for the ref. (I guess an Inspector Frost or a Hercule Poirot would still wonder how his daughter could be so certain of the true date, since she was not there at the birth, and the person she got the information from, her father, got the information second-hand himself. So one could argue that Haehl used only a third-hand source. But that's not for us to concern ourselves about at Misplaced Pages because we'd be getting away from verifiability and into scientific accuracy.) However, to save future debates, maybe we could include a footnote explaining why we think 11th April is wrong. -- ] (]) 08:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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** translated by Mary L. Wheeler & W. H. R Grundy |
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** edited by John Henry Clarke (1852-1931) & F. J. Wheeler |
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** vol 1 https://archive.org/details/b29001742_0001 |
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** vol 2 (Supplements) https://archive.org/details/b29001742_0002 |
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--] (]) 20:02, 24 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2023 == |
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Great, that's a nice outcome. Someone can edit the above quote, or a variant of it, to a footnote of his birthdate, indicating that Bradford gets it wrong or at least that the date of his birth has been disputed by some folks, even in his own times, but that the predominant view is that he was born ~12 midnight of the 10th April. If I can find time to edit that into the text I will do it, maybe tomorrow. thanks ] 15:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC) |
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{{edit semi-protected|Samuel Hahnemann|answered=yes}} |
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== Explanation of major edits == |
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Change "pseudoscientific system of alternative medicine called homeopathy" to "scientific system of alternative medicine called homoeopathy" ] (]) 10:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> Nah. See ] ] (]) 10:58, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2023 == |
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Hello, everyone. Thought I'd explain the rationale behind my major overhaul of the article. Much of the changes are structural and copy-editing revisions. I tried to even out the sections and got rid of some excessive use of quotations from primary sources. For the most part, I tried to just rephrase the information as it appeared in the text. I also tried to give a more intuitive explanation of homeopathy in the lead. |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Samuel Hahnemann|answered=yes}} |
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Perhaps more controversially, I deleted the "Achievements" section. My reasons for doing this are as follows: |
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word ' psuedoscience' should be replaced by 'alternative science of therapeutics' ] (]) 10:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> ] and ] establish that pseudosciene can and should be labelled as such. ] (]) 11:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC) |
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: Facts are facts, ] are just plain falsehoods. There is science, and anything that pretends to be science but isn't is not "alternative science". It's just plain pseudoscience, quackery, mumbo jumbo, and it can kill. -- ] (]) (''''']''''') 20:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::How many people have died from homeopathy? Citations? Define "mumbo jumbo". Is that a scientific term? ] (]) 21:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::How many exactly is unknown, but this website collects cases: . Another harm is that believing in it seems to increase people's gullibility. |
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:::It is consensus within science that homeopathy is very much pseudoscience. |
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:::This page is ]. It is for improving the article. Since WP rules say that reliable sources beat your own opinion, you have nothing useful to contribute here. --] (]) 06:25, 3 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2023 == |
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1. First and foremost, this section does not represent a neutral point of view. It cites ten of Hahnemann's achievements ... solely as defined by Harald Gaier, a prominent follower of homeopathy. These "achievements" do not reflect any sort of consensus or recognition by the scientific or medical community and are purely sectarian hagiography (and many of them read as nonsense to me). |
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{{edit semi-protected|Samuel Hahnemann|answered=yes}} |
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2. It is list-like which I believe violates Misplaced Pages's general style guidelines. |
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] (]) 16:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)Dennis Boocho |
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change pseudoscientific to scientific ] (]) 09:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{Tlx|Edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> See the above edit request and ] and ]. Edit requests are not meant to change consensus. '''<span style="border-radius:6px;padding:1px 5px;background:#30a;">]]</span>''' 02:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC) |
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
Change "pseudoscientific system of alternative medicine called homeopathy" to "scientific system of alternative medicine called homoeopathy" 1.22.224.147 (talk) 10:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Not done: Nah. See WP:RS Cannolis (talk) 10:58, 21 March 2023 (UTC)