Talk:Israeli apartheid: Difference between revisions

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	::::::::I think this (the article 3 breach) is the most relevant wording that we need to be using. ] (]) 14:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)		::::::::I think this (the article 3 breach) is the most relevant wording that we need to be using. ] (]) 14:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
	:::::::::I would think human rights organizations are the best qualified regarding human rights issues, instead of countries with a clear political agenda. On one hand you have the ICJ, UNGA, HRW, Amnesty, etc, and on the other hand you have a bunch of countries asserting otherwise. Those countries are actually a minority as Self noted, not "the entire Western world" - and even if that wasn't the case, human rights organizations are clearly the authority here. We do not add POVs from unqualified parties regarding what does and doesn't constitute a war crime (we wouldn't cite a, idk, architect giving his opinion), but are supposed to give equal weight to political institutions? - ] (]) 13:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)		:::::::::I would think human rights organizations are the best qualified regarding human rights issues, instead of countries with a clear political agenda. On one hand you have the ICJ, UNGA, HRW, Amnesty, etc, and on the other hand you have a bunch of countries asserting otherwise. Those countries are actually a minority as Self noted, not "the entire Western world" - and even if that wasn't the case, human rights organizations are clearly the authority here. We do not add POVs from unqualified parties regarding what does and doesn't constitute a war crime (we wouldn't cite a, idk, architect giving his opinion), but are supposed to give equal weight to political institutions? - ] (]) 13:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
			::::::::::Countries voting to endorse the ICJ decision did not vote on whether there's apartheid or not, that's a wrong reading of the vote. I haven't seen a single government in the West that officially recognizes the situation in Israel-Palestine as apartheid. You are welcome to prove otherwise. Anyway, the current use of voice to describe the situation is clearly biased and adopts one view over that of countless other sources and governments that do not use this term for Israel-Palestine, because they reject it. ] (]) 14:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

	== Need explanation and/or sources ==		== Need explanation and/or sources ==

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This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Keep per WP:SNOW, 21 August 2010, see discussion.
No consensus, 11 June 2008, see discussion.
No consensus, 4 September 2007, see discussion.
Speedy keep, 26 June 2007, see discussion.
No consensus, 24 April 2007, see discussion.
Keep, 4 April 2007, see discussion.
No consensus, 11 August 2006, see discussion.
Speedy keep, 15 July 2006, see discussion.
No consensus, 3 June 2006, see discussion.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Israel and apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Moved, 20 July 2024, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid, Moved, 24 July 2022, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid allegation, No consensus, 4 December 2021, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid, Withdrawn per WP:SNOW, 3 May 2021, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Claims of Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 8 June 2017, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid analogy, No consensus due to procedural issue, 29 May 2017, see discussion.

Older discussions:

Israel and the apartheid analogy → ?, Not moved, 12 January 2017, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 13 January 2011, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Israel and apartheid , No consensus, 20 August 2010, see discussion.
Israel and the apartheid analogy → Allegations of Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 3 May 2009, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, No consensus, 28 August 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Apartheid controversy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, No consensus, 17 August 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, No consensus, 16 March 2007, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 14 December 2006, see discussion.
Allegations of Israeli apartheid → Israeli apartheid, Not moved, 6 October 2006, see discussion.
Israeli apartheid → Allegations of Israeli apartheid, Move, 26 June 2006, see discussion.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Haviv Rettig Gur (16 May 2010). "Israeli-Palestinian conflict rages on Misplaced Pages". The Jerusalem Post.
Omer Benjakob (26 November 2020). "On Misplaced Pages, Israel Is Losing the Battle Against the Word 'Apartheid'". Haaretz.
Hava Mendelle (March 23, 2024). "The World Jewish Congress investigates Misplaced Pages". Spectator Australia. Retrieved March 23, 2024.
Yaakov Menken (August 6, 2024). "Misplaced Pages hates Israel and Jews". Jewish News Syndicate. Retrieved August 6, 2024.
Aaron Bandler (September 26, 2024). "Misplaced Pages Editors Title Article "Israeli Apartheid"". Jewish Journal. Retrieved October 7, 2024.
"Misplaced Pages Decrees: Israel is an Apartheid State". The Misplaced Pages Flood. September 19, 2024. Retrieved October 7, 2024.

For a list of references that may be useful when improving this article in the future, please see Talk:Allegations of Israeli apartheid/RS.

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This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

ICJ and apartheid

The issue of what the ICJ opinion really means regarding racial segregation versus apartheid is unclear from the opinion itself and this is why so-called RSs can't agree on it. However, the matter is discussed at length in the separate opinions. See in particular the opinions of Brant, Iwasawa, Nolte, Salam and Tladi. I read somewhere the suggestion that the lack of elucidation on this point in the official opinion was so that more judges would sign up to it. None of the judges argued against the ruling that Israel is in violation of Para 3 of CERD, but they did not agree on exactly what that means regarding apartheid. Hopefully we will soon get learned articles in law journals that we can cite. Zero 03:40, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Germany’s Reaction to the International Court of Justice’s Palestine Advisory Opinion: 'The Opinion Confirms Our Positioning in Many Points' On the particular point:- "The International Court of Justice has established that certain human rights obligations apply to Israel, including in relation to the occupied territories. It has established a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which prohibits racial segregation and apartheid. However, … the ICJ has not decided on one of the two options." Selfstudier (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

'Racial Segregation and Apartheid' in the ICJ Palestine Advisory Opinion We now have some more detailed legal analysis. Confirms "a breach of Article 3 could refer to racial segregation, apartheid, or both. This is seen in the Separate Opinions, some of which considered the finding of a breach of Article 3 as a finding of apartheid; others believing the Court had not made such a finding." Also, as regards the still ongoing CERD proceedings "CERD has yet to reach a final decision in this case. With a strong finding of a breach of Article 3 from the ICJ and several judicial opinions interpreting this as a finding of apartheid, this may well create a platform for CERD to determine the issue." & "The questions put by UNGA to the Court ‘concern Israel’s "discriminatory legislation and measures" under international human rights law and not apartheid as an international crime." "the Opinion considered that the Apartheid Convention and Rome Statute 'can inform the interpretation of Article 3 of CERD'". Selfstudier (talk) 15:44, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice on the Legal Consequences of Israel's Policies and Practices in the "Occupied Palestinian Territory" "For example, regarding whether Israel’s policies and practices amount to apartheid, the Court stated that Israel violates the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid set in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD), but did not specify which elements of the article Israel violated. In separate declarations they published, some of the majority Judges explicitly state that Israel is implementing an apartheid policy, while others assert that the Court did not make such a determination or that there is no basis for such a claim. Selfstudier (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

I would personally deprioritize German and Israeli sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

These aren't direct government sources, but legal professors, thinks tanks – the usual commentators. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The German source above is an official statement by the German spokesperson for the Federal Foreign Office, while the other Israeli source is the Israel Democracy Institute which has every interest in downplaying the ICJ ruling. Just as I wouldn't trust a South African think tank or US government in the 1980s to comment on apartheid in SA. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No, it's reporting and commentary on it by a professor. Check it. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Though specifically quoting the German government on page obviously wouldn't be particularly useful. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:55, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying they are good sources, and there are certainly caveats that would be worth discussing in their use, but your initial statement was cavalier. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

True, but since these two examples hold fringe opinions they should not be taken as seriously as the rest of the sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The "best" one (in the sense of having the deeper analysis, not just the opinion but how it relates to the ongoing CERD case) is the second one but the others are not "bad". What we are seeing is a slow but steady accumulation of material explaining the advisory opinion as it relates to this particular article. There are two salient points I would say, the first being that only certain of the ICJ judges have said that the breach of Article 3 constitutes apartheid and that what the various judges have said may well have some impact on the ongoing CERD case and the outcome there.

At any rate it is quite clear that some commentators jumped the gun, notably HRW, altho it was only a press release. Selfstudier (talk) 09:39, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

A more authoritative update from HRW. Selfstudier (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

What may turn out to be more important as time goes on, is the attitude of third states to the advisory opinion and whether they consider themselves bound to act on it. Opinion formers such as Archbishop of Canterbury urges nations to respect ICJ opinion on Israeli occupation have a role to play there, see as well UK should stop arming Israel after ICJ advisory ruling, top lawyer says. Also see Implications of the ICJ Advisory Opinion for the EU-Israel Association Agreement. Selfstudier (talk) 09:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Diakonia summary gives quotes from some of the judges on the subject. Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The ad hoc conciliation commission has produced its report/appendices, available Report, App 1 and App 2. We will have to wait for secondary reporting filtering it all but the recommendations look a lot like giving up and passing the buck to CERD/UNSC, that's just my opinion tho. Selfstudier (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Report seems to also say that Israel is in breach of article 3 of the convention in both its apartheid and racial segregation aspects: "44. The commission, having considered the serious allegations raised by the State of Palestine under article 3 of the Convention regarding discriminatory practices and policies of racial discrimination and apartheid committed by Israeli authorities, recalls that in recommendations addressed to Israel, the Committee has urged the State party to take immediate measures to prohibit and eradicate such policies or practices which severely and disproportionately affect the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and which violate the provisions of article 3 of the Convention." Makeandtoss (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I did notice that slightly ambiguous wording, I think CERD itself, (rather than the conciliation commission, whose job really was to get the sides to reconcile), needs to step up here and clarify the state of play having regard to ICJ AO. We'll see. Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Move

So how does this work now? Can I have the honor of moving the page? @SafariScribe: Makeandtoss (talk) 09:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Needs admin to move it, requested. Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss, Selfstudier has answered you. Also, you can't move the page because you are WP:INVOLVED, hence it must require another editor in a good standing (also not involved) to move the article. The move was delayed because it is a contentious topic that will only require an admin to move the article. Cheers! Safari Scribe 11:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Social stratification

Do we have any content on the social stratification; the hierarchal rights of Palestinians of GZ, EJ, WB, Israel, and the diaspora? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Try the Amnesty report Section 5 p61 et seq. Selfstudier (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Old moves template

I noticed that the most recent move is noted in its own banner at the top of this Talk, separated from the list of other moves several banners above it. Would someone be willing to rectify this? (Or is this intentional? for some reason I'm not grasping?) I would do it myself but I don't quite understand how the {{old moves}} template works. It also looks like the discussion links all need to be updated. --Pinchme123 (talk) 19:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Half done. Thanks. There is still work to do regarding the links. Template:Article history should be used. —Alalch E. 09:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@GhostOfNoMan: Can you explain your edits and its relation to your edit summary? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:04, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies – I realise now you were introducing the change and the diff in that discussion was your self-rv. I thought I was reinstating the agreed-upon wording; I should've read more carefully. I've undone my edit. GhostOfNoMan 12:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@GhostOfNoMan: Thanks. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Tags

@ABHammad: Kindly explain the added tags (and why there are several for apparently the same thing)? Selfstudier (talk) 08:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted @ABHammad's changes here as the phrasing is backed by RS and has long-standing consensus. Ideally they should discuss this change here before applying that label. Smallangryplanet (talk) 08:33, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the tags, I agree there is a major problem with the current wording. This article is written like apartheid is a fact in Israel but this is obviously contested. Why is Misplaced Pages the only mainstream source in the west that says this like a fact? OdNahlawi (talk) 10:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Apartheid is fact per every international human rights organization including the world's foremost court, the ICJ. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Using human rights watch interpretation of the ICJ does not mean that "the world's foremost court" have decided such if they didn't say it clearly. And any way there's much to the world beside the ICJ. Give me one Western liberal country that adopted this usage? thanks OdNahlawi (talk) 10:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Why are "Western liberal" countries the authority? It's the consensus of human rights organizations. Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Human rights organizations have their own (deep) biases. It is not only there isn't consensus among western liberal democracies and main media sources, I don't think any of them has ever endorsed this claim. I think it shows that the usage of apartheid in regards to Israel is primarily a talking point of activists, politicians, and progressive groups, and except those, the allegations are viewed as extremely fringe. OdNahlawi (talk) 11:12, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Governments are not reliable sources. Human Rights Watch is a reliable source per WP. There is no equivalency. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

An article wide tag is not necessary if the complaint is adequately addressed by inline tags so I removed that.

The opinion of any Western liberal country, in other words, politicians, are noted but not relevant.

The ICJ has concluded that Israel is in breach of article 3 of the convention and "Article 3 obligates governments to prevent, prohibit, and eradicate all racial segregation and apartheid".

Subsequently the UNGA has passed a resolution (this is not yet in the article afaics) stating "Calls upon all States to comply with their obligations under international law, inter alia, as reflected in the advisory opinion.." and "systemic discrimination based on, inter alia, race, religion or ethnic origin in violation of the relevant rules of international humanitarian law and international human rights law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention,3 the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, 4 the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights5 and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination6 and customary international law".

If there is anything left to decide, it is how exactly to summarize the cumulative opinions of NGOs such as Amnesty, the ICJ/UNGA view, and potentially, the ICC view "Salam’s discussion of the crime should be studied by relevant criminal justice authorities, including the International Criminal Court (ICC) prosecutor, as it outlines the legal framework needed to investigate the crime of apartheid." Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Framing the current situation as apartheid in WP:VOICE, solely based on the views of human rights groups whose worldviews increasingly diverge from Western mainstream perspectives, is problematic and has no real impact on the ground. There is a clear reason why the Western world, the only part of the world that actually cares for human rights, including not just governments but also major news outlets, has not endorsed these apartheid allegations—and that is what truly matters in reality. The only countries that endorsed the claims of apartheid (and genocide, and ethnic cleansing, and all the other terms commonly used in recent propaganda) are, ironically, countries like Iran and Syria, which are not very known for their human rights record. ABHammad (talk) 12:18, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You completely ignored the point we just discussed about governments not being reliable sources. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You completely ignored the point that the entire western world rejects the claims, rendering the views of (politicized/radicalized) human rights organizations irrelevant for many. If we want to comply with WP:NPOV, as we're supposed, we cannot use WP:VOICE to make claims that are rejected by all the vast majority of those who actually care for human rights. ABHammad (talk) 12:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm ignoring your personal feelings that this article should reflect the opinion of countries, and not RS because those RS are in your opinion "radicalized"? Yes. That's my duty as a Misplaced Pages editor. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree mostly wtih ABHammad and Oddnahlawi above. The most correct and encyclopedic presentation of the issue should be something like: Several human rights organizations and some countries, such as Iran and Turkey, have claimed that Israel's policies in the Palestinian territories amount to apartheid. However, most Western governments reject this allegation, typically framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Galamore (talk) 12:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this would be the perfect opening paragraph to an article titled Governments' views on Israel and apartheid. We should ensure the inclusion of South Africa and Jordan along with Iran and Turkey.

Plus, this is illogical: "framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Israel's actions being justified by "security concerns" has nothing to do with the nature of these actions. I can construct a wall based on security considerations, but that doesn't change the fact that a wall exists. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The usage of 'apartheid' is, similarly to genocide, closely related to the aims of a policy, apartheid is conducted for reasons of racial segragation. Walls can be built for various reasons, not all of them related to apartheid. Does anyone claim that the Berlin Wall was apartheid? this claim is empty. Galamore (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No, the usage of apartheid has been documented by an increasing number of detailed reports over the past decade. The usage of genocide is new and no conclusive reports nor an ICJ ruling have been issued. So, again, there is no equivalency. I was not trying to compare walls with apartheid; I was refuting the idea that a justification negates the existence of reality. As another example, you can steal a car and market it as "logistical considerations"; nevertheless, a theft still occurred. Justifications are a marketing strategy and do not negate reality. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

First of all, the world does not revolve around the western world, and the western world does not revolve around western governments. That being said, the ICJ is based in the Netherlands; the UN is based in the US; HRW is based in the US; Amnesty International is based in the UK. These are western institutions, so the argument that "the entire western world rejects the claims" does not hold up to any scrutiny, and is irrelevant anyway. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Clearer here: I would like to suggest the next option which I think is much more balanced and encyclopedic than recent changes: Several human rights organizations and some countries, such as Iran and Turkey, have said that Israel's policies in the Palestinian territories amount to apartheid. However, most Western governments reject this allegation, typically framing Israel's actions as linked to security concerns rather than an institutionalized system of racial segregation." Galamore (talk) 12:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

The recent UNGA vote on the ICJ opinion can be seen here so it is just not true to say that the Western world is "against", only 14 countries (Argentina, Czech Republic,Fiji, Hungary, Israel, Malawi, Micronesia Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Tonga, Tuvalu, United States) voted against the resolution. Selfstudier (talk) 13:07, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

How this or that politician chooses to talk about it is completely irrelevant. As per above, their countries are now bound by UNGA resolution. They may choose to ignore it but that has consequences too (UK/Chagos Islands refers). Selfstudier (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Having said that, I'm not that keen on the Easter egg in Line 1 tho. Selfstudier (talk) 13:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Here is the official publication. Zero 13:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: "a system of institutionalized segregation and discrimination" seems to be a quote from Amnesty report? I don't think we want wording tied only to one source? Selfstudier (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

That's the textbook definition of apartheid, that was adopted from the Apartheid Convention: "a system of institutionalised racial segregation." So it's a basic definition that cannot be rephrased much. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:27, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It's also not in the body so we might want to have a think about that. Selfstudier (talk) 14:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

If we want a recent RS, there is DAWN mentioning both ICJ and UNGA in one place, and referring to the situation as apartheid, will see if I can find some more. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Lede is a summary so it doesn’t have to be in the body verbatim. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

So what is it a summary of? Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

UN experts here, says "racial discrimination and segregation or apartheid" and expounds at length on third states responsibilities. Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Amnesty "its discriminatory laws and policies against Palestinians violate the prohibition on racial segregation and apartheid."

I think this (the article 3 breach) is the most relevant wording that we need to be using. Selfstudier (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I would think human rights organizations are the best qualified regarding human rights issues, instead of countries with a clear political agenda. On one hand you have the ICJ, UNGA, HRW, Amnesty, etc, and on the other hand you have a bunch of countries asserting otherwise. Those countries are actually a minority as Self noted, not "the entire Western world" - and even if that wasn't the case, human rights organizations are clearly the authority here. We do not add POVs from unqualified parties regarding what does and doesn't constitute a war crime (we wouldn't cite a, idk, architect giving his opinion), but are supposed to give equal weight to political institutions? - Ïvana (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Countries voting to endorse the ICJ decision did not vote on whether there's apartheid or not, that's a wrong reading of the vote. I haven't seen a single government in the West that officially recognizes the situation in Israel-Palestine as apartheid. You are welcome to prove otherwise. Anyway, the current use of voice to describe the situation is clearly biased and adopts one view over that of countless other sources and governments that do not use this term for Israel-Palestine, because they reject it. ABHammad (talk) 14:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Need explanation and/or sources

I find bits of this sentence too simplified: "Elements of Israeli apartheid include the Law of Return, the 2003 Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, the 2018 Nation-State Law, and many laws regarding security, freedom of movement, land and planning, citizenship, political representation in the Knesset (legislature), education, and culture." There is no sources or explanation (later on in the article) on how apartheid is used in issues like political representation in the Knesset (legislature), education, and culture. I think the article does a good and essential job in explaining apartheid in the occupied territories, especially when there is a ruling by the ICJ. What this article lacks is an explanation on how apartheid is being used in Israel proper, and especially in the context on political representation, education and culture. That may well be so, but it needs to be explained.

I also want to point out that the section of "Population Registry Law" is contradicted by the article of "Israeli identity card". I would argue that this section needs to be expanded or removed.

All good, DonLovis (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

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