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Revision as of 12:46, 15 October 2024 editNishidani (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users99,534 edits What you said← Previous edit Revision as of 17:47, 15 October 2024 edit undoLevivich (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers40,429 edits What you said: re PeleYoetzTag: 2017 wikitext editorNext edit →
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:::Since you are taking an extreme literalist view of '''part of this''', let me construe the sentence and style of that type of remark. :::Since you are taking an extreme literalist view of '''part of this''', let me construe the sentence and style of that type of remark.
:::The quote refers obviously to a theme, not to what you said, but to Levivich's subsuming the various remarks you made as reflective of a general theme. This is called stylistically 'variations on a theme' broadly, a musical term which has been adopted in general prose. Technically, these variations are what are called ], literary embroideries of some standard image, idea, or argument in a literary canon masterfully surveyed by ] in his ''European Literature and the Latin Middle Ages'' (1948, esp.pp79ff.) When you read anything in literature depicting a pleasant landscape or garden, nilly willy, it will be categorized as an example of the tradition of a ]. :::The quote refers obviously to a theme, not to what you said, but to Levivich's subsuming the various remarks you made as reflective of a general theme. This is called stylistically 'variations on a theme' broadly, a musical term which has been adopted in general prose. Technically, these variations are what are called ], literary embroideries of some standard image, idea, or argument in a literary canon masterfully surveyed by ] in his ''European Literature and the Latin Middle Ages'' (1948, esp.pp79ff.) When you read anything in literature depicting a pleasant landscape or garden, nilly willy, it will be categorized as an example of the tradition of a ].
:::So when Levivich states that in his reading your statements are 'variations' on a generic premise that 'God gave the land to us', he is not putting the latter phrase into your mouth. He is saying that he reads your remarks as 'topical variations' on that powerful biblical '''theme''' that Palestine was given to Jews as a promised land, and which underlies all alternative echoes of that notion. :::So when Levivich states that in his reading your statements are 'variations' on a generic premise that 'God gave the land to us', he is not putting the latter phrase into your mouth. He is saying that he reads your remarks as 'topical variations' on that powerful biblical '''theme''' that Palestine was given to Jews as a promised land, and which underlies all alternative echoes of that notion.
:::In layman's language, you are asking him to recant the reasonable impression he drew from your mode of arguing, in the way your terms evoke to the common reader an omnipresent theme in the Bible and in Judaism. There is no room for ambiguity here: 'variations' means that the quotation in inverted commas does not literally refer to any statement you made. It means, not only in Levivich's view, that your remarks are redolent, as thematic variations, of the topos of the promised land. This is quite innocuous, a fair assessment. It may not reflect what you take your remarks to mean, but it is the inevitable outcome of the language you use. :::In layman's language, you are asking him to recant the reasonable impression he drew from your mode of arguing, in the way your terms evoke to the common reader an omnipresent theme in the Bible and in Judaism. There is no room for ambiguity here: 'variations' means that the quotation in inverted commas does not literally refer to any statement you made. It means, not only in Levivich's view, that your remarks are redolent, as thematic variations, of the topos of the promised land. This is quite innocuous, a fair assessment. It may not reflect what you take your remarks to mean, but it is the inevitable outcome of the language you use.
:::The attribution to the whole of the Jewish people of a desire to return to the land of their forefathers cannot be grounded on quoting passages from ] or ] on the topos of ''Libi baMizrach'' (my heart is in the east), any more than would be the case for quoting the far more realistic thinking of an 'average' Jew in the diaspora captured by Bloom's thoughts after he ducks into the butcher shop for a pork kidney for his breakfast from his fellow Jew, the Hungarian Dlugacz,- this violation of a kosher prohibition grounded in Deuteronomy 14:8.,- means that he feels he must, when the opportunity presents itself, up stakes and perform aliyah, along the lines of a pamphlet by Agendath Netaim he picks up to browse, a company offering land for prospective buyers with citrus groves by Lake Tiberias. 'Nothing doing. Still an idea behind it.'(James Joyce, ''Ulysses'' The Bodley Head 1960 p.72)I often sing to myself the songs of my childhood like ] and ] but anyone who took those as evidence of my desire to return there would be mistaken. They reflect a long and intense cultural attachment. Arguments to the contrary simply reflect a Zionist ''topos'' which retroactively attributes to ''all Jews'' historically the idea proffered by their very recent ideological justification for that movement, one that was dismissed as heretical by the majority of rabbinical scholars when it was first articulated. :::The attribution to the whole of the Jewish people of a desire to return to the land of their forefathers cannot be grounded on quoting passages from ] or ] on the topos of ''Libi baMizrach'' (my heart is in the east), any more than would be the case for quoting the far more realistic thinking of an 'average' Jew in the diaspora captured by Bloom's thoughts after he ducks into the butcher shop for a pork kidney for his breakfast from his fellow Jew, the Hungarian Dlugacz,- this violation of a kosher prohibition grounded in Deuteronomy 14:8.,- means that he feels he must, when the opportunity presents itself, up stakes and perform aliyah, along the lines of a pamphlet by Agendath Netaim he picks up to browse, a company offering land for prospective buyers with citrus groves by Lake Tiberias. 'Nothing doing. Still an idea behind it.'(James Joyce, ''Ulysses'' The Bodley Head 1960 p.72)I often sing to myself the songs of my childhood like ] and ] but anyone who took those as evidence of my desire to return there would be mistaken. They reflect a long and intense cultural attachment. Arguments to the contrary simply reflect a Zionist ''topos'' which retroactively attributes to ''all Jews'' historically the idea proffered by their very recent ideological justification for that movement, one that was dismissed as heretical by the majority of rabbinical scholars when it was first articulated.

:::In 2600 years of life outside of the Biblical land, many Jews the world over may well have taken to heart the stirring passages of poetic nostalgia in the classics of their literary tradition. Percentually, despite no obstacles, very few ever acted on it, any more than Greeks in the ] beyond, when recalling the ] of Odysseus, dropped their copy of Homer and left the ], ] or ] broadly, to return to the ancient roots of ''some of their forefathers'' in ] or ]. When Eastern European Jews were offered the prospect of going to the United States or Palestine in the 1880s onwards, the overwhelming majority went West (to the ), not South. :::In 2600 years of life outside of the Biblical land, many Jews the world over may well have taken to heart the stirring passages of poetic nostalgia in the classics of their literary tradition. Percentually, despite no obstacles, very few ever acted on it, any more than Greeks in the ] beyond, when recalling the ] of Odysseus, dropped their copy of Homer and left the ], ] or ] broadly, to return to the ancient roots of ''some of their forefathers'' in ] or ]. When Eastern European Jews were offered the prospect of going to the United States or Palestine in the 1880s onwards, the overwhelming majority went West (to the ), not South.
:::There is nothing to apologize here, except for the commonplace misprisions you make about a putative universal perennial longing among Jews, which is a literary and rabbinical construction of 'Jewishness'. And using an ultimatum for such a trivial misreading of your interloctor's words looks highly 'instrumental'.] (]) 08:22, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :::There is nothing to apologize here, except for the commonplace misprisions you make about a putative universal perennial longing among Jews, which is a literary and rabbinical construction of 'Jewishness'. And using an ultimatum for such a trivial misreading of your interloctor's words looks highly 'instrumental'.] (]) 08:22, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
::::... @], you should clearly redact your comments, you have put words in the mouth of PeleYoetz, who clearly did not say anything about God, just talked about history. Inventing words and attributing them to others to promote sanctions against them is... not right. The time to apologize is now. ] (]) 12:15, 15 October 2024 (UTC) ::::... @], you should clearly redact your comments, you have put words in the mouth of PeleYoetz, who clearly did not say anything about God, just talked about history. Inventing words and attributing them to others to promote sanctions against them is... not right. The time to apologize is now. ] (]) 12:15, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
::::Please read the thread, which evidently you haven't because nowhere did Levivich put words into the other chap's mouth.] (]) 12:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC) :::::Please read the thread, which evidently you haven't because nowhere did Levivich put words into the other chap's mouth.] (]) 12:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
----
@PeleYoetz: {{tqq|the yearning for a return continued throughout the generations is a historical fact}} No, it's not. {{tqq|Levivich, really just try and read more about the history of Jewish identity. I really think you need to do some self reflection.}} OK. This website is about educating people with reliable sources, so let's read some RS about the history of Jewish identity, and self-reflect, together:
{{cot|Stanislawski, Engel, Penslar, Pappe, and Slater, on yearning for a return}}
*], writing Oxford's ] about Zionism, :
*: {{tq2|Many, if not most, Zionists today regard Zionism as a natural continuation of two millennia of Jewish attachment to the Land of Israel and aspiration to return there in the End of Days. According to this view, Jews prayed daily through the millennia for the restoration of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and this hope was realized dramatically, and, for some, miraculously, in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. <p>What this common point of view misunderstands is that the Zionist movement, founded in the late nineteenth century under highly specific and contingent circumstances, was in fact a rejection of that age-old desire for the Jews to return to the Land of Israel, and not its linear fulfillment. This was, quite simply, because that traditional “yearning for Zion” was tied inexorably to the belief in the advent of a messiah chosen and anointed by God—and by God alone—who would then initiate the “ingathering of the exiles” (i.e., the return to Zion of all the Jews in the world) and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. In most of its versions, Jewish messianism also—and crucially—entailed an end to earthly existence as we know it. ... <p>But in between Jesus and ] there were many other “false messiahs,” and so the rabbinic leadership of the Jews worldwide declared that although the messianic belief and its call for the Jews to return to the Holy Land was a cardinal doctrine of Judaism, they decried any apocalyptic version of that belief: Jews were forbidden to “advance the end” or even to calculate it. The messiah would be chosen by God on God’s good time, and any activism among human beings to intervene in this process was heresy, to be condemned and punished. <p>The founders of Zionism rebelled fundamentally and viscerally against the political quietism which was the corollary of this messianic belief. They demanded that Jews take matters into their own hands to liberate themselves, not to wait for God (in whom many—quite crucially—no longer believed) to return the Jews to “Zion” to create a Jewish homeland there.}}
* ]'s book about 2013 Zionism, :
*: {{tq2|It turns out that when it spoke about continuous hands-on efforts by Jews to resettle and reclaim Palestine, the ] glossed over parts of the historical record – as political documents often do. It is true that throughout Jewish history some individual Jews left relatively more comfortable lives outside Palestine in order to satisfy a deep longing to settle in what they saw as their true homeland. However, the number of such Jews appears to have been quite small. In fact, for more than a thousand years after Muslim armies first took control of the country in 632 CE, Palestine’s Jewish population declined sharply, from around 200,000 in the mid-seventh century to no more than 3,000 in 1700. Moreover, certain Jewish religious ideas actually appear to have ''discouraged'' Jews from trying to reclaim sovereignty there. Since restoration was possible only after God lifted the punishment of exile, Jews traditionally watched for signs that God was about to relent. They anticipated that, when the time came, God would choose a champion who would gather the Jewish people from all the lands of their dispersion, organize them to take control of the Promised Land, and lead them there in triumph. They called that anticipated champion mashi’ah – literally, ‘the anointed one’, or, as it is usually rendered in English, ‘Messiah’. Once the Messiah appeared, Jews believed, the return to Palestine would be at hand. But they also believed that the timing of the Messiah’s appearance was up to God alone. In fact, throughout most of their history the majority of Jewish religious leaders insisted that, except for praying and observing God’s commandments, Jews neither could nor should do anything to persuade God to send the Messiah quickly. Some even warned that if Jews tried to resettle Palestine en masse before the Messiah came, God was liable to interpret their efforts as an act of rebellion and extend the punishment, making the exile last longer. ... <p>These facts suggest that, prayers for restoration notwithstanding, Zionism might be better understood as a departure from traditional Jewish ways of looking at the world than as an extension of ancient Jewish religious values. And if Zionism really does embody more a modern than an ancient idea, then it makes sense to look for its origins around the time the word gained currency, not centuries before.}}
* ], who used to be Chair of Israel Studies at Oxford, wrote a last year, pp. 18-25:
*: {{tq2|Like other nationalisms, Zionism justifies itself through appeals to history, but it does so anachronistically. It transforms rabbinic Judaism’s concepts of the sacred—the Jews’ common devotion to the God of Israel, veneration of the biblical Land of Israel, and the concept of an eventual Jewish return to that land in the messianic era—into a modern nationalist idiom. ... <p>Jewish connections with the Land of Israel are ancient and deep, but they should not be equated with Zionist goals to settle Jews in the land and configure it as a Jewish homeland. Rabbinic Judaism venerates the Land of Israel, but there has been a wide range of opinions on whether it is religiously commanded to live there. Talmudic sources emphasize that the mass return of Jews to the Land of Israel will occur only in the days of the Messiah and that attempting to initiate this return prematurely is a sacrilege. Underlying this concept is a theological passivity formed by two cataclysmic historical events: the destruction in 70 ce of the Second Temple in Jerusalem during a Jewish revolt against Roman rule and the decimation of Jewish communities in Judea in 132–135 ce in response to another failed rebellion, whose commander had messianic pretensions. The Talmud speaks of oaths, sworn by Jews to God in the wake of this calamity, that they would neither rebel against the nations of the world nor initiate a mass return to the land of Israel. <p>Until the twentieth century, Palestine’s Jewish community was minuscule and splintered ... Well into the twentieth century the Jews of Palestine were a collection of separate communities divided by place of origin, customs, and native language or languages. <p>In the 1700s the Jews of Palestine numbered about five thousand, some 2 percent of the total population. In the early nineteenth century, Jewish immigration to Palestine began to increase, and by 1880 there were about 25,000 Jews of a population of approximately 470,000. ... A sliver of the 2.5 million Jews who left Russia, Romania, and the Hapsburg Empire between the early 1880s and the outbreak of World War I emigrated to Palestine. ... All in all, about 65,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine over this time. Some of the new arrivals in Palestine were fervent nationalists, but many were pious scholars like those who had immigrated in the past. ... They came to the Land of Israel to live among its ruins, not to restore the Hebrew kingdoms of biblical antiquity. ... <p>Zionism did not emerge directly from traditional Jewish attitudes toward the collective (the children of Israel) or territory (the Land of Israel). ... Instead, it had multiple sources, dating to the middle of the nineteenth century. The sources were primarily in Europe but were as likely to be found among the more prosperous and acculturated communities of Germany and Austria-Hungary as among the poorer and less secure communities in Russia and Romania.}}
* ]'s ''Ten Myths About Israel'' (2024, 2nd ed.), :
*: {{tq2|There are those who would like to question whether the Jews who settled in Palestine as Zionists in the aftermath of 1918 were really the descendants of the Jews who had been exiled by Rome 2,000 years ago. ... More serious analysis came from biblical scholars who were not influenced by Zionism, such as Keith Whitelam, Thomas Thompson, and the Israeli scholar, Israel Finkelstein, all of whom reject the Bible as a factual account of any significance. Whitelam and Thompson also doubt the existence of anything like a nation in biblical times and, like others, criticize what they call the “invention of modern Israel” as the work of pro-Zionist Christian theologians. ... <p>... Thus, they found themselves faced with a challenging paradox, for they wanted both to secularize Jewish life and to use the Bible as a justification for colonizing Palestine. In other words, though they did not believe in God, He had nonetheless promised them Palestine. ... <p>Historically, the Bible served Zionism well from its inception until the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. It played an important role in the dominant Israeli narrative—for both domestic and external purposes—claiming that Israel is the same land as was promised by God to Abraham in the Bible. “Israel” in this narrative existed until 70 CE, when the Romans demolished it and exiled its people. The religious commemoration of that date, when the second Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, was a day of mourning. In Israel it has become a national day of mourning on which all leisure-industry businesses, including restaurants, are required to close from the evening before. The principal scholarly and secular proof for this narrative has been provided in recent years with the help of what is called biblical archeology (in itself an oxymoronic concept, since the Bible is a great literary work, written by many peoples in different periods, and hardly a historical text). After 70 CE, according to the narrative, the land was more or less empty until the Zionist return. ... <p>Israeli educational textbooks now carry the same message of the right to the land based on a biblical promise. According to a letter sent by the education ministry in 2014 to all schools in Israel: “the Bible provides the cultural infrastructure of the state of Israel, in it our right to the land is anchored.” Bible studies are now a crucial and expanded component of the curriculum—with a particular focus on the Bible as recording an ancient history that justifies the claim to the land. The biblical stories and the national lessons that can be learned from them are fused together with the study of the Holocaust and of the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. ... In the public discussions on the future of Palestine, Ben-Gurion waved a copy of the Bible at the members of the committee, shouting: “This is our Qushan , our right to Palestine does not come from the Mandate Charter, the Bible is our Mandate Charter.” <p>Historically, of course, it makes no sense to teach the Bible, what happened to the Jews of Europe, and the 1948 war as one historical chapter. But ideologically the three items are linked together and indoctrinated as the basic justification for the Jewish state in our time.}}
* , ''Mythologies Without End'', :
*: {{tq2|In theory, the purely religious biblical argument is separable from the essentially historical one (though those who base Zionism’s legitimacy on biblical arguments rarely make this distinction). As already noted, the religious argument is simple and straightforward: God promised Palestine to the Jews, forever. That kind of argument, however, will be convincing only to religious literalists and fundamentalists; indeed, it is hardly clear that most of the Jewish people themselves—the great majority of them non-Orthodox or largely secular—are persuaded by the religious argument. <p>More important, Christians and Muslims also have strong historical connections, claims, and ties to Palestine based on religion and sentiment. ... In short, there is no persuasive general principle that privileges the Zionist claim of ancient religious rights, let alone eternal ones, over the similar claims of Christians and Muslims. ... <p>The second Zionist argument based on the Bible is a historical rather than a religious one—or, more accurately, as I have summarized earlier, it is based on ancient history as described in the Hebrew Bible. To begin with, no part of the Zionist/Israeli narrative that is based on the Hebrew Old Testament stands up to serious scrutiny, and in the last few decades the accuracy of nearly every part of that narrative has been decisively rejected by leading historians and archaeologists—''especially'' Israeli ones—who have concluded that the biblical account must be regarded as theology and myth rather than genuine history. There is little or no archaeological evidence that the biblical figures who are central to the Zionist/Israeli narrative—Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon—existed. And even if they were actual rather than mythical figures, the scholarship has demonstrated that there is little historical or archaeological evidence in support of the “Exodus” myth and other biblical stories: that Palestine was the major homeland of the Jews until they were expelled by the Romans, that Moses and other Patriarchs led the Jews out of Egypt and conquered Canaan (Palestine), and that King David and King Solomon, ruling from Jerusalem, established an extensive Jewish kingdom over most of the land. In short, as the Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein stated in 2000, it had been “common knowledge among serious scholars for years” that Zionism was based on biblical myths or folktales that were adopted to bolster the political claim that the Jewish people were rightfully and eternally sovereign over the land of Palestine. ... <p>It is important to examine the biblically based myths in greater detail. To begin, archaeologists and historians have established that there has never been one Jewish “homeland,” whether in Palestine or anywhere else. Long before the Roman conquest of Palestine and the subsequent Jewish revolt, there were large Jewish communities in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and throughout the Mediterranean basin. Moreover, contrary to the myth, there is no evidence that the Jews established political sovereignty or control over ancient Palestine, which was inhabited by a number of peoples, no one of which was dominant. <p>In 66–70 ce a Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Palestine was suppressed. Zionist mythology holds that “the Romans may have laid the entire nation waste between ad 70 and 135, slaughtering as many as 600,000 Jews, and carrying off half that number in bondage.” This myth is no longer taken seriously by informed historians. In his review of the scholarship, Charles H. Manekin (writing under his pen name Jeremiah Haber), a Hebrew University philosopher and historian, writes that “there is no contemporary evidence—i.e., first and second centuries ce—that anything like an exile took place.” Rather, some of the rebels were killed, others died of hunger, and some prisoners became Roman slaves. And over the centuries, most of the Jews who remained in Palestine became Christians, and later Muslims, leaving only a small group that preserved its Jewish identity. <p>Although the Zionists are correct that there was a continuing Jewish presence, between the first and mid-nineteenth centuries it consisted only of some 5,000 or 6,000 nonpolitical religious fundamentalists in Jerusalem and two or three other towns or villages. Jewish immigration increased somewhat after that, but by the end of the nineteenth century there were still only about 50,000 Jews in Palestine. ... <p>However small the Jewish community in Palestine was from the first through most of the nineteenth century, the mythology holds that the Jewish people as a whole were unwillingly confined to exiled communities—the “Diaspora”—in other lands, but maintained their attachment to the land of Palestine and yearned to eventually “return” to it. ... It is undoubtedly true that ''some'' kind of a Jewish identification, especially among religious Jews, has resonated throughout diaspora history—“Next year in Jerusalem,” and the like—but even during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries an overwhelming majority of the East European Jews threatened by anti-Semitism sought to move to the West, particularly the United States, rather than go to Palestine. And today it is clear that the overwhelming majority of the Jewish people do not think of themselves in any meaningful way as a diaspora yearning to “return” to Palestine—else they would have done so, as they now have had the right and (in most cases) the ability to move to Israel for some seventy years.}}
{{cob}}

Slater gets really interesting, though, when he asks the question: well, what if the myths ''were'' true? Would it make a difference? From :
{{cot|Slater, asking 'what if the myths were true'}}
: {{tq2|For the sake of analysis, for the moment let us leave aside the historical and archaeological evidence and assume that the Zionist narrative and the argument on which it is based is accurate: that Palestine was the homeland of the Jewish people who ruled it for many centuries until they were driven out by the Romans, that nonetheless some Jewish communities remained in Palestine for the next 2,000 years, and that the remainder of the scattered Jewish people never stopped yearning and striving for the reestablishment of their homeland and a Jewish state in Palestine—so for all those reasons, the historical land of Palestine eternally belongs to the Jewish people. <p>That argument, however, is more a matter of special pleading for the Jews than one based on a persuasive and universally applicable principle. For what would the principle be? That lands conquered by force would eternally belong to the “original” inhabitants (whatever that might mean), no matter how many centuries other peoples had been a majority in that land, so long as the previous inhabitants were still a distinguishable people, some small minority of which continued to yearn to “return” to their “homeland”? The problem for that Zionist argument, of course, is that there is no such universal principle. That is, even if the mythology were true, that would not establish a persuasive modern Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The argument that an ancient claim to a land has precedence over very long periods of a different reality—in Palestine, eight centuries of Christianity followed by thirteen centuries of an overwhelming Islamic majority—is accepted nowhere else in the world, whether in law, moral reasoning, or plain common sense. <p>Put differently, there is scarcely any place on earth that at one time or another has not been conquered, subjugated, and populated by other peoples. Yet there is no other place in which it is taken to be a serious argument that even if more than twenty centuries have passed since the expulsion of a people from their homelands, they still retain their right to permanent political sovereignty there, if necessary overriding the political and other rights of the peoples who have inhabited the land since then, including most of its present-day inhabitants. ... <p>If this way of looking at the issue is persuasive, then what is left of the Zionist argument that is based on ancient history? For over thirty centuries Palestine (or Canaan) has been repeatedly conquered: by the Assyrians, by the Babylonians, by Alexander the Great, by the Roman Empire, by the Crusaders, by the Arabs, and by the Ottoman Empire. After each of these conquests, the previous inhabitants of the land were subjugated by the new rulers who then held sway, sometimes for centuries. In light of these facts, some versions of the Zionist argument hold that violent conquests do not invalidate the moral and political rights of the previous inhabitants. Among other problems with that argument, though, is the fact the Jewish Bible itself claims that ''the Jews themselves were conquerors'', defeating the previous indigenous peoples of the land of Palestine, the Canaanites. <p>Given all these issues, who should be regarded as the “rightful” claimants to Palestine? Absent a religious basis (“the Promised Land”) accepted by everyone, including those of different nationalities and religions, stopping the clock as it marches backward in time to twenty centuries ago, ''neither earlier nor later'', must be completely arbitrary and self-serving. <p>Put differently, by what objective criteria are the claims of one set of victims—the Jews supposedly driven out of Palestine by the Romans 2,000 years ago—privileged over all other such claims? If the most ancient of the “original” victimization is the criterion, then it must follow that the descendants of the Canaanites—in some accounts, the ''Syrians'', whose descendants live in Lebanon today!—must have priority over the descendants of the Jews. On the other hand, if more recent victimization is the criterion, then the victims of various conquests of Palestine since the end of the Roman Empire must have priority over the Jews. <p>Indeed, the great irony of the Zionist narrative is that unlike the alleged Roman expulsion, the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians is both demonstrable and far more recent—seventy years ago, not 2,000. ... <p>In sum, the Zionist arguments based on religious claims, biblical mythology, or ancient territorial rights cannot stand up to serious analysis. If Zionism ever had a persuasive claim for a Jewish state, it would have to rest on the modern period, meaning from the late nineteenth century through today.}}
{{cob}}
] lasted for maybe 50 years. Israel's exile of Palestinians has lasted longer. I'm not the first to say that Israel is the modern Babylon--conquering Jerusalem and exiling its inhabitants--while Palestinians have become the modern Jews--exiled, stateless, and discriminated against by almost everyone. And those who draw on the ] or the ] to justify Zionist claims to Palestine are, indeed, arguing variations of "God gave the land to us," variations of "because the Bible says so." It's a weak argument, unpopular outside Israel, and that makes it easy to spot.

Yesterday, a non-XC account ]: {{tq2|The key similarity is “foreign”, ie do Jews/Zionists constitute a “foreign” presence in Israel / did they in 1948. Again, to use an imperfect example, displaced Ukrainians returning to the Crimea in the event of Russian withdrawal would not be considered “foreigners”, and therefore definitionally incapable of being colonisers or colonialists of Crimea (given the distinction you make).}}

Let's contemplate this Crimean analogy for a moment. Let's suppose instead of 2024 it's 4024, two thousand years into the future. First, think about that period of time: can you imagine what life will be like in 2,000 years? You'd probably agree with me that by 4024, humans will almost certainly have been living on Mars for over 1,000 years, probably also the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, and quite likely have figured out how to travel to other star systems and probably colonized those, too. Imagine, then, that in 4024, people who identify themselves as the descendants of Ukrainians -- and who maintained Ukranian customs and religion -- but who lived in a place far away from Crimea, like, say, China, or maybe Mars, claimed that they were the rightful owners of Crimea, because it was taken from their ancestors two millennia prior. How fucking crazy does that sound to you?

And suppose the world government (or interstellar government, in 4024) decided to give half of Crimea to these Martian Ukrainians, but the Martian Ukrainians took three-quarters of it by force and expelled almost everyone who was living there, prevented them by force from returning, put those who stayed behind under military government, and, twenty years later, occupied the remaining quarter and subjugated the local population there as well. And they justified it all by saying, "the history books clearly establish that in 2014 we were expelled from Crimea, our ancient homeland!" Yeah, right. We would think they were absolutely out of their minds. And anyone who showed up arguing that the land belongs to them because of an exile 2,000 years ago would be instantly recognizable as a Martian Ukrainian, simply because of the manifest irrationality of their arguments.

Zionism is fundamentally irrational: as soon as you lay it out and look at it, you realize it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's what the reliable sources about Zionism explain, and that's what Misplaced Pages's summary of those sources will say, regardless of how many accounts the modern-day "Martian Ukrainians" make. ] (]) 17:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:47, 15 October 2024


Not to start a discussion, just a matter of mutual interest FYI

AI's threat to Misplaced Pages Late Night Live 8 October 2024. Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

What you said

Hi Levivich. I don't understand why you would write this. You said there - " Not a lot of people will say with a straight face variations of "God gave the land to us." That's an outlier view."

I never said something like that and I don't know why you seem to hold this opinion about me. I'm asking you to please retract your comments. I don't know where your ideas come from but I am really really suggesting that you allow us to just coexist. I think it might do some good to you too. I don't know how this conflict met or meets you so I prefer to give your this chance. PeleYoetz (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

In my view, statements like There were always Jews who returned to the Land of Israel and yearned to do so. Starting from the Book of Lamentations through ancient, mideaval and modern sources, this has always been a central theme in Jewish religion, history, and liturgy. It was not yet a political movement, but this fact provides vital context and is absolutely DUE. are among the kinds of statements I had in mind when I wrote variations of "God gave the land to us."; in this example quote, you argue it's true and Misplaced Pages should say it's true because, in part, the Bible (Book of Lamentations) said so.
Although, when I wrote that sentence, I specifically had in mind this article complaining about Misplaced Pages's coverage of Zionism, which at the end quotes somebody as saying the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 was the fulfillment of God’s promise to gather His people back to Zion.
Bringing the Bible to a Misplaced Pages talk page as if it were a history book is a tell-tale sign of POV pushing of a very specific and uncommon POV: biblical literalism. This view, though almost unheard of in any intellectual discussion in the real world and certainly in academia, finds surprising popularity on the talk page of Misplaced Pages's articles about Israel, e.g. here and here, where other editors also claim that because it's in the Bible, it's true. Levivich (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm sorry but your response is simply no less insulting and disappointing than your original comments. I'm going to repeat myself - I haven't said at any point "God gave the land to us", and I've never mentioned God.
Psalm 137 is an ancient Jewish text, it described the remembrance and the yearning for Jerusalem from the point of view of Babylonian captivity. It is clearly ancient, probably from the Babylonian or Persian periods. That the centrality of the Land of Israel, and the yearning for a return continued throughout the generations is a historical fact, this theme is indeed recurring in Jewish history since antiquity. In the 2nd century BCE, Simon Thassi, when told by the Seleucids he was occupying Jaffa, replied: "We have never taken land away from other nations or confiscated anything that belonged to other people. On the contrary, we have simply taken back property that we inherited from our ancestors, land that had been unjustly taken away from us by our enemies at one time or another." In the 12th century, Judah HaLevi wrote: "My heart is in the east, and the rest of me at the edge of the west. ... / ... While Zion remains in the Cross's reign, and I in Arab chains?" When the Jews of the diaspora revolted against Rome, one of the purposes, was a return to Judea and defend it. Levivich, really just try and read more about the history of Jewish identity. I really think you need to do some self reflection.
I'm now asking you once more, apologize and retract your inappropriate comments. PeleYoetz (talk) 06:37, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
May I intervene here?

"Not a lot of people will say with a straight face variations of "God gave the land to us."

Since you are taking an extreme literalist view of part of this, let me construe the sentence and style of that type of remark.
The quote refers obviously to a theme, not to what you said, but to Levivich's subsuming the various remarks you made as reflective of a general theme. This is called stylistically 'variations on a theme' broadly, a musical term which has been adopted in general prose. Technically, these variations are what are called topoi, literary embroideries of some standard image, idea, or argument in a literary canon masterfully surveyed by Ernst Robert Curtius in his European Literature and the Latin Middle Ages (1948, esp.pp79ff.) When you read anything in literature depicting a pleasant landscape or garden, nilly willy, it will be categorized as an example of the tradition of a Locus amoenus.
So when Levivich states that in his reading your statements are 'variations' on a generic premise that 'God gave the land to us', he is not putting the latter phrase into your mouth. He is saying that he reads your remarks as 'topical variations' on that powerful biblical theme that Palestine was given to Jews as a promised land, and which underlies all alternative echoes of that notion.
In layman's language, you are asking him to recant the reasonable impression he drew from your mode of arguing, in the way your terms evoke to the common reader an omnipresent theme in the Bible and in Judaism. There is no room for ambiguity here: 'variations' means that the quotation in inverted commas does not literally refer to any statement you made. It means, not only in Levivich's view, that your remarks are redolent, as thematic variations, of the topos of the promised land. This is quite innocuous, a fair assessment. It may not reflect what you take your remarks to mean, but it is the inevitable outcome of the language you use.
The attribution to the whole of the Jewish people of a desire to return to the land of their forefathers cannot be grounded on quoting passages from Simon Thassi or Judah Halevi on the topos of Libi baMizrach (my heart is in the east), any more than would be the case for quoting the far more realistic thinking of an 'average' Jew in the diaspora captured by Bloom's thoughts after he ducks into the butcher shop for a pork kidney for his breakfast from his fellow Jew, the Hungarian Dlugacz,- this violation of a kosher prohibition grounded in Deuteronomy 14:8.,- means that he feels he must, when the opportunity presents itself, up stakes and perform aliyah, along the lines of a pamphlet by Agendath Netaim he picks up to browse, a company offering land for prospective buyers with citrus groves by Lake Tiberias. 'Nothing doing. Still an idea behind it.'(James Joyce, Ulysses The Bodley Head 1960 p.72)I often sing to myself the songs of my childhood like Molly Malone and It's a Long Way to Tipperary but anyone who took those as evidence of my desire to return there would be mistaken. They reflect a long and intense cultural attachment. Arguments to the contrary simply reflect a Zionist topos which retroactively attributes to all Jews historically the idea proffered by their very recent ideological justification for that movement, one that was dismissed as heretical by the majority of rabbinical scholars when it was first articulated.
In 2600 years of life outside of the Biblical land, many Jews the world over may well have taken to heart the stirring passages of poetic nostalgia in the classics of their literary tradition. Percentually, despite no obstacles, very few ever acted on it, any more than Greeks in the oikoumene beyond, when recalling the nostos of Odysseus, dropped their copy of Homer and left the Ukraine, Egypt or Africa broadly, to return to the ancient roots of some of their forefathers in Chios or Samothrace. When Eastern European Jews were offered the prospect of going to the United States or Palestine in the 1880s onwards, the overwhelming majority went West (to the 'new Zion'), not South.
There is nothing to apologize here, except for the commonplace misprisions you make about a putative universal perennial longing among Jews, which is a literary and rabbinical construction of 'Jewishness'. And using an ultimatum for such a trivial misreading of your interloctor's words looks highly 'instrumental'.Nishidani (talk) 08:22, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
... @Levivich, you should clearly redact your comments, you have put words in the mouth of PeleYoetz, who clearly did not say anything about God, just talked about history. Inventing words and attributing them to others to promote sanctions against them is... not right. The time to apologize is now. ABHammad (talk) 12:15, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
Please read the thread, which evidently you haven't because nowhere did Levivich put words into the other chap's mouth.Nishidani (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@PeleYoetz: the yearning for a return continued throughout the generations is a historical fact No, it's not. Levivich, really just try and read more about the history of Jewish identity. I really think you need to do some self reflection. OK. This website is about educating people with reliable sources, so let's read some RS about the history of Jewish identity, and self-reflect, together:

Stanislawski, Engel, Penslar, Pappe, and Slater, on yearning for a return
  • Michael Stanislawski, writing Oxford's Very Short Introductions about Zionism, pp. 2-3:

    Many, if not most, Zionists today regard Zionism as a natural continuation of two millennia of Jewish attachment to the Land of Israel and aspiration to return there in the End of Days. According to this view, Jews prayed daily through the millennia for the restoration of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and this hope was realized dramatically, and, for some, miraculously, in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

    What this common point of view misunderstands is that the Zionist movement, founded in the late nineteenth century under highly specific and contingent circumstances, was in fact a rejection of that age-old desire for the Jews to return to the Land of Israel, and not its linear fulfillment. This was, quite simply, because that traditional “yearning for Zion” was tied inexorably to the belief in the advent of a messiah chosen and anointed by God—and by God alone—who would then initiate the “ingathering of the exiles” (i.e., the return to Zion of all the Jews in the world) and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. In most of its versions, Jewish messianism also—and crucially—entailed an end to earthly existence as we know it. ...

    But in between Jesus and Sabbetai Zevi there were many other “false messiahs,” and so the rabbinic leadership of the Jews worldwide declared that although the messianic belief and its call for the Jews to return to the Holy Land was a cardinal doctrine of Judaism, they decried any apocalyptic version of that belief: Jews were forbidden to “advance the end” or even to calculate it. The messiah would be chosen by God on God’s good time, and any activism among human beings to intervene in this process was heresy, to be condemned and punished.

    The founders of Zionism rebelled fundamentally and viscerally against the political quietism which was the corollary of this messianic belief. They demanded that Jews take matters into their own hands to liberate themselves, not to wait for God (in whom many—quite crucially—no longer believed) to return the Jews to “Zion” to create a Jewish homeland there.

  • David Engel's book about 2013 Zionism, pp. 9-12:

    It turns out that when it spoke about continuous hands-on efforts by Jews to resettle and reclaim Palestine, the Declaration of Independence glossed over parts of the historical record – as political documents often do. It is true that throughout Jewish history some individual Jews left relatively more comfortable lives outside Palestine in order to satisfy a deep longing to settle in what they saw as their true homeland. However, the number of such Jews appears to have been quite small. In fact, for more than a thousand years after Muslim armies first took control of the country in 632 CE, Palestine’s Jewish population declined sharply, from around 200,000 in the mid-seventh century to no more than 3,000 in 1700. Moreover, certain Jewish religious ideas actually appear to have discouraged Jews from trying to reclaim sovereignty there. Since restoration was possible only after God lifted the punishment of exile, Jews traditionally watched for signs that God was about to relent. They anticipated that, when the time came, God would choose a champion who would gather the Jewish people from all the lands of their dispersion, organize them to take control of the Promised Land, and lead them there in triumph. They called that anticipated champion mashi’ah – literally, ‘the anointed one’, or, as it is usually rendered in English, ‘Messiah’. Once the Messiah appeared, Jews believed, the return to Palestine would be at hand. But they also believed that the timing of the Messiah’s appearance was up to God alone. In fact, throughout most of their history the majority of Jewish religious leaders insisted that, except for praying and observing God’s commandments, Jews neither could nor should do anything to persuade God to send the Messiah quickly. Some even warned that if Jews tried to resettle Palestine en masse before the Messiah came, God was liable to interpret their efforts as an act of rebellion and extend the punishment, making the exile last longer. ...

    These facts suggest that, prayers for restoration notwithstanding, Zionism might be better understood as a departure from traditional Jewish ways of looking at the world than as an extension of ancient Jewish religious values. And if Zionism really does embody more a modern than an ancient idea, then it makes sense to look for its origins around the time the word gained currency, not centuries before.

  • Derek Penslar, who used to be Chair of Israel Studies at Oxford, wrote a book about Zionism last year, pp. 18-25:

    Like other nationalisms, Zionism justifies itself through appeals to history, but it does so anachronistically. It transforms rabbinic Judaism’s concepts of the sacred—the Jews’ common devotion to the God of Israel, veneration of the biblical Land of Israel, and the concept of an eventual Jewish return to that land in the messianic era—into a modern nationalist idiom. ...

    Jewish connections with the Land of Israel are ancient and deep, but they should not be equated with Zionist goals to settle Jews in the land and configure it as a Jewish homeland. Rabbinic Judaism venerates the Land of Israel, but there has been a wide range of opinions on whether it is religiously commanded to live there. Talmudic sources emphasize that the mass return of Jews to the Land of Israel will occur only in the days of the Messiah and that attempting to initiate this return prematurely is a sacrilege. Underlying this concept is a theological passivity formed by two cataclysmic historical events: the destruction in 70 ce of the Second Temple in Jerusalem during a Jewish revolt against Roman rule and the decimation of Jewish communities in Judea in 132–135 ce in response to another failed rebellion, whose commander had messianic pretensions. The Talmud speaks of oaths, sworn by Jews to God in the wake of this calamity, that they would neither rebel against the nations of the world nor initiate a mass return to the land of Israel.

    Until the twentieth century, Palestine’s Jewish community was minuscule and splintered ... Well into the twentieth century the Jews of Palestine were a collection of separate communities divided by place of origin, customs, and native language or languages.

    In the 1700s the Jews of Palestine numbered about five thousand, some 2 percent of the total population. In the early nineteenth century, Jewish immigration to Palestine began to increase, and by 1880 there were about 25,000 Jews of a population of approximately 470,000. ... A sliver of the 2.5 million Jews who left Russia, Romania, and the Hapsburg Empire between the early 1880s and the outbreak of World War I emigrated to Palestine. ... All in all, about 65,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine over this time. Some of the new arrivals in Palestine were fervent nationalists, but many were pious scholars like those who had immigrated in the past. ... They came to the Land of Israel to live among its ruins, not to restore the Hebrew kingdoms of biblical antiquity. ...

    Zionism did not emerge directly from traditional Jewish attitudes toward the collective (the children of Israel) or territory (the Land of Israel). ... Instead, it had multiple sources, dating to the middle of the nineteenth century. The sources were primarily in Europe but were as likely to be found among the more prosperous and acculturated communities of Germany and Austria-Hungary as among the poorer and less secure communities in Russia and Romania.

  • Ilan Pappe's Ten Myths About Israel (2024, 2nd ed.), pp. 20-40:

    There are those who would like to question whether the Jews who settled in Palestine as Zionists in the aftermath of 1918 were really the descendants of the Jews who had been exiled by Rome 2,000 years ago. ... More serious analysis came from biblical scholars who were not influenced by Zionism, such as Keith Whitelam, Thomas Thompson, and the Israeli scholar, Israel Finkelstein, all of whom reject the Bible as a factual account of any significance. Whitelam and Thompson also doubt the existence of anything like a nation in biblical times and, like others, criticize what they call the “invention of modern Israel” as the work of pro-Zionist Christian theologians. ...

    ... Thus, they found themselves faced with a challenging paradox, for they wanted both to secularize Jewish life and to use the Bible as a justification for colonizing Palestine. In other words, though they did not believe in God, He had nonetheless promised them Palestine. ...

    Historically, the Bible served Zionism well from its inception until the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. It played an important role in the dominant Israeli narrative—for both domestic and external purposes—claiming that Israel is the same land as was promised by God to Abraham in the Bible. “Israel” in this narrative existed until 70 CE, when the Romans demolished it and exiled its people. The religious commemoration of that date, when the second Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, was a day of mourning. In Israel it has become a national day of mourning on which all leisure-industry businesses, including restaurants, are required to close from the evening before. The principal scholarly and secular proof for this narrative has been provided in recent years with the help of what is called biblical archeology (in itself an oxymoronic concept, since the Bible is a great literary work, written by many peoples in different periods, and hardly a historical text). After 70 CE, according to the narrative, the land was more or less empty until the Zionist return. ...

    Israeli educational textbooks now carry the same message of the right to the land based on a biblical promise. According to a letter sent by the education ministry in 2014 to all schools in Israel: “the Bible provides the cultural infrastructure of the state of Israel, in it our right to the land is anchored.” Bible studies are now a crucial and expanded component of the curriculum—with a particular focus on the Bible as recording an ancient history that justifies the claim to the land. The biblical stories and the national lessons that can be learned from them are fused together with the study of the Holocaust and of the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. ... In the public discussions on the future of Palestine, Ben-Gurion waved a copy of the Bible at the members of the committee, shouting: “This is our Qushan , our right to Palestine does not come from the Mandate Charter, the Bible is our Mandate Charter.”

    Historically, of course, it makes no sense to teach the Bible, what happened to the Jews of Europe, and the 1948 war as one historical chapter. But ideologically the three items are linked together and indoctrinated as the basic justification for the Jewish state in our time.

  • Jerome Slater, Mythologies Without End, pp. 33-35:

    In theory, the purely religious biblical argument is separable from the essentially historical one (though those who base Zionism’s legitimacy on biblical arguments rarely make this distinction). As already noted, the religious argument is simple and straightforward: God promised Palestine to the Jews, forever. That kind of argument, however, will be convincing only to religious literalists and fundamentalists; indeed, it is hardly clear that most of the Jewish people themselves—the great majority of them non-Orthodox or largely secular—are persuaded by the religious argument.

    More important, Christians and Muslims also have strong historical connections, claims, and ties to Palestine based on religion and sentiment. ... In short, there is no persuasive general principle that privileges the Zionist claim of ancient religious rights, let alone eternal ones, over the similar claims of Christians and Muslims. ...

    The second Zionist argument based on the Bible is a historical rather than a religious one—or, more accurately, as I have summarized earlier, it is based on ancient history as described in the Hebrew Bible. To begin with, no part of the Zionist/Israeli narrative that is based on the Hebrew Old Testament stands up to serious scrutiny, and in the last few decades the accuracy of nearly every part of that narrative has been decisively rejected by leading historians and archaeologists—especially Israeli ones—who have concluded that the biblical account must be regarded as theology and myth rather than genuine history. There is little or no archaeological evidence that the biblical figures who are central to the Zionist/Israeli narrative—Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon—existed. And even if they were actual rather than mythical figures, the scholarship has demonstrated that there is little historical or archaeological evidence in support of the “Exodus” myth and other biblical stories: that Palestine was the major homeland of the Jews until they were expelled by the Romans, that Moses and other Patriarchs led the Jews out of Egypt and conquered Canaan (Palestine), and that King David and King Solomon, ruling from Jerusalem, established an extensive Jewish kingdom over most of the land. In short, as the Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein stated in 2000, it had been “common knowledge among serious scholars for years” that Zionism was based on biblical myths or folktales that were adopted to bolster the political claim that the Jewish people were rightfully and eternally sovereign over the land of Palestine. ...

    It is important to examine the biblically based myths in greater detail. To begin, archaeologists and historians have established that there has never been one Jewish “homeland,” whether in Palestine or anywhere else. Long before the Roman conquest of Palestine and the subsequent Jewish revolt, there were large Jewish communities in Egypt, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and throughout the Mediterranean basin. Moreover, contrary to the myth, there is no evidence that the Jews established political sovereignty or control over ancient Palestine, which was inhabited by a number of peoples, no one of which was dominant.

    In 66–70 ce a Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Palestine was suppressed. Zionist mythology holds that “the Romans may have laid the entire nation waste between ad 70 and 135, slaughtering as many as 600,000 Jews, and carrying off half that number in bondage.” This myth is no longer taken seriously by informed historians. In his review of the scholarship, Charles H. Manekin (writing under his pen name Jeremiah Haber), a Hebrew University philosopher and historian, writes that “there is no contemporary evidence—i.e., first and second centuries ce—that anything like an exile took place.” Rather, some of the rebels were killed, others died of hunger, and some prisoners became Roman slaves. And over the centuries, most of the Jews who remained in Palestine became Christians, and later Muslims, leaving only a small group that preserved its Jewish identity.

    Although the Zionists are correct that there was a continuing Jewish presence, between the first and mid-nineteenth centuries it consisted only of some 5,000 or 6,000 nonpolitical religious fundamentalists in Jerusalem and two or three other towns or villages. Jewish immigration increased somewhat after that, but by the end of the nineteenth century there were still only about 50,000 Jews in Palestine. ...

    However small the Jewish community in Palestine was from the first through most of the nineteenth century, the mythology holds that the Jewish people as a whole were unwillingly confined to exiled communities—the “Diaspora”—in other lands, but maintained their attachment to the land of Palestine and yearned to eventually “return” to it. ... It is undoubtedly true that some kind of a Jewish identification, especially among religious Jews, has resonated throughout diaspora history—“Next year in Jerusalem,” and the like—but even during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries an overwhelming majority of the East European Jews threatened by anti-Semitism sought to move to the West, particularly the United States, rather than go to Palestine. And today it is clear that the overwhelming majority of the Jewish people do not think of themselves in any meaningful way as a diaspora yearning to “return” to Palestine—else they would have done so, as they now have had the right and (in most cases) the ability to move to Israel for some seventy years.

Slater gets really interesting, though, when he asks the question: well, what if the myths were true? Would it make a difference? From pp. 35-37:

Slater, asking 'what if the myths were true'

For the sake of analysis, for the moment let us leave aside the historical and archaeological evidence and assume that the Zionist narrative and the argument on which it is based is accurate: that Palestine was the homeland of the Jewish people who ruled it for many centuries until they were driven out by the Romans, that nonetheless some Jewish communities remained in Palestine for the next 2,000 years, and that the remainder of the scattered Jewish people never stopped yearning and striving for the reestablishment of their homeland and a Jewish state in Palestine—so for all those reasons, the historical land of Palestine eternally belongs to the Jewish people.

That argument, however, is more a matter of special pleading for the Jews than one based on a persuasive and universally applicable principle. For what would the principle be? That lands conquered by force would eternally belong to the “original” inhabitants (whatever that might mean), no matter how many centuries other peoples had been a majority in that land, so long as the previous inhabitants were still a distinguishable people, some small minority of which continued to yearn to “return” to their “homeland”? The problem for that Zionist argument, of course, is that there is no such universal principle. That is, even if the mythology were true, that would not establish a persuasive modern Jewish claim to the land of Palestine. The argument that an ancient claim to a land has precedence over very long periods of a different reality—in Palestine, eight centuries of Christianity followed by thirteen centuries of an overwhelming Islamic majority—is accepted nowhere else in the world, whether in law, moral reasoning, or plain common sense.

Put differently, there is scarcely any place on earth that at one time or another has not been conquered, subjugated, and populated by other peoples. Yet there is no other place in which it is taken to be a serious argument that even if more than twenty centuries have passed since the expulsion of a people from their homelands, they still retain their right to permanent political sovereignty there, if necessary overriding the political and other rights of the peoples who have inhabited the land since then, including most of its present-day inhabitants. ...

If this way of looking at the issue is persuasive, then what is left of the Zionist argument that is based on ancient history? For over thirty centuries Palestine (or Canaan) has been repeatedly conquered: by the Assyrians, by the Babylonians, by Alexander the Great, by the Roman Empire, by the Crusaders, by the Arabs, and by the Ottoman Empire. After each of these conquests, the previous inhabitants of the land were subjugated by the new rulers who then held sway, sometimes for centuries. In light of these facts, some versions of the Zionist argument hold that violent conquests do not invalidate the moral and political rights of the previous inhabitants. Among other problems with that argument, though, is the fact the Jewish Bible itself claims that the Jews themselves were conquerors, defeating the previous indigenous peoples of the land of Palestine, the Canaanites.

Given all these issues, who should be regarded as the “rightful” claimants to Palestine? Absent a religious basis (“the Promised Land”) accepted by everyone, including those of different nationalities and religions, stopping the clock as it marches backward in time to twenty centuries ago, neither earlier nor later, must be completely arbitrary and self-serving.

Put differently, by what objective criteria are the claims of one set of victims—the Jews supposedly driven out of Palestine by the Romans 2,000 years ago—privileged over all other such claims? If the most ancient of the “original” victimization is the criterion, then it must follow that the descendants of the Canaanites—in some accounts, the Syrians, whose descendants live in Lebanon today!—must have priority over the descendants of the Jews. On the other hand, if more recent victimization is the criterion, then the victims of various conquests of Palestine since the end of the Roman Empire must have priority over the Jews.

Indeed, the great irony of the Zionist narrative is that unlike the alleged Roman expulsion, the Israeli expulsion of the Palestinians is both demonstrable and far more recent—seventy years ago, not 2,000. ...

In sum, the Zionist arguments based on religious claims, biblical mythology, or ancient territorial rights cannot stand up to serious analysis. If Zionism ever had a persuasive claim for a Jewish state, it would have to rest on the modern period, meaning from the late nineteenth century through today.

Babylonian captivity lasted for maybe 50 years. Israel's exile of Palestinians has lasted longer. I'm not the first to say that Israel is the modern Babylon--conquering Jerusalem and exiling its inhabitants--while Palestinians have become the modern Jews--exiled, stateless, and discriminated against by almost everyone. And those who draw on the Book of Lamentations or the Psalms to justify Zionist claims to Palestine are, indeed, arguing variations of "God gave the land to us," variations of "because the Bible says so." It's a weak argument, unpopular outside Israel, and that makes it easy to spot.

Yesterday, a non-XC account said to me:

The key similarity is “foreign”, ie do Jews/Zionists constitute a “foreign” presence in Israel / did they in 1948. Again, to use an imperfect example, displaced Ukrainians returning to the Crimea in the event of Russian withdrawal would not be considered “foreigners”, and therefore definitionally incapable of being colonisers or colonialists of Crimea (given the distinction you make).

Let's contemplate this Crimean analogy for a moment. Let's suppose instead of 2024 it's 4024, two thousand years into the future. First, think about that period of time: can you imagine what life will be like in 2,000 years? You'd probably agree with me that by 4024, humans will almost certainly have been living on Mars for over 1,000 years, probably also the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, and quite likely have figured out how to travel to other star systems and probably colonized those, too. Imagine, then, that in 4024, people who identify themselves as the descendants of Ukrainians -- and who maintained Ukranian customs and religion -- but who lived in a place far away from Crimea, like, say, China, or maybe Mars, claimed that they were the rightful owners of Crimea, because it was taken from their ancestors two millennia prior. How fucking crazy does that sound to you?

And suppose the world government (or interstellar government, in 4024) decided to give half of Crimea to these Martian Ukrainians, but the Martian Ukrainians took three-quarters of it by force and expelled almost everyone who was living there, prevented them by force from returning, put those who stayed behind under military government, and, twenty years later, occupied the remaining quarter and subjugated the local population there as well. And they justified it all by saying, "the history books clearly establish that in 2014 we were expelled from Crimea, our ancient homeland!" Yeah, right. We would think they were absolutely out of their minds. And anyone who showed up arguing that the land belongs to them because of an exile 2,000 years ago would be instantly recognizable as a Martian Ukrainian, simply because of the manifest irrationality of their arguments.

Zionism is fundamentally irrational: as soon as you lay it out and look at it, you realize it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That's what the reliable sources about Zionism explain, and that's what Misplaced Pages's summary of those sources will say, regardless of how many accounts the modern-day "Martian Ukrainians" make. Levivich (talk) 17:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

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