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Alexander Duchnovič

If you did not know Alexander Duchnovič considered himself as a Rusyn, he was writting about it (Ia rusyn byl, ies'm i budu (I Was, Am, and Will Be a Rusyn). The statement that he was Ukrainian was inveted by Soviet comunists to explain how Subcarpathian Ruthenia becommed part of Soviet Union after WW2. Conqueror100

Striking ideas

First of all, allow me thank you for your support. I meant to write this earlier, but I was simply exhausted after dealing with all the bs (btw, someone is desperately wanting to fly up to the Sun, a fact that, I hope, can only lead to tearing feathers). I guess I should have picked up on evidence of Bonapartism when Hizkiah or whatever "his name" was lectured me on his years-long experience as a wikipedian, despite having his account created in December...

Also, no sweat on the Tâmpa issue - btw, much of it can be sourced from here.

As for your main topic: Exquisite Idea. I was pondering it back in the day when I was the only one who cared about such topics, but it seemed that I was reaching to high at that moment. Now we are just about ready to look into it closer. There are a few issues I would amend, though:

• I would use "labor movement in Romania" over "Romanian" (sometimes, vaguer is better)
• I would not turn all those strikes into articles, at least for now - many of them may never get close to FA status, and we could detail them in the "Labor" article for starters (or, indeed, for ever). For example, Rakovsky's strikes, and even the Bucharest shinding in 1918 could easily form paragraphs in the new article (pending their own articles, or just sitting there). I would also not create a "Romania during the Depression", since that would be vague and would lead to clutter - instead, I would (in the future) focus on major events in the "Kingdom of Romania" or "Greater Romania" articles (we still haven't decided on how to relate those to the History series), and outline them in the "Labor" article. In the latter, I would divide the Depression period into two sections, and "mainarticle" one to Lupeni, the other to Griviţa (with overviews of additional events - and, yes, a clear need for expansion in the latter). I would also prefer topical articles on the unions themselves, if such a thing is feasible.

Stuff that I would add to your overview (not a complete review, just what I can think of right now), and stuff that we would need to look into:

• perhaps a look into radical projects of the cărbunari, to see how much of them fits the topic of the article (as a "prehistory" - no, not under that title, but reflecting that idea)
• early unionism (the really early ones - late 1800s) and details on ideological background (bound to be interesting, but likely undersourced)
• the Potemkin episode and the claims made by Rakovsky in relation to its outcome (very interesting stuff)
• the Transylvanian Soc Dems negotiating with the PNR over labor rights as a prerequisite for the Union (also investigation into the status of Ioan Flueraş and Enea Grapini as labor activists during that time)
• National Liberal repression (a term grossly misused by the communists, but still applicable) in the early 1900s and early 1920s
• Galaction's testimonies about the early 1920s
• Jewish affiliation to Labor Zionism
• the PCR and PSDR spitting at each other during the interwar (Frunză also adds detail on the link between PSDR and labor)
• precisely what the main trade unions of the interwar where and their history (Cristescu fits in there somehow), and the cool but friendly relations allegedly kept by Ghelerter/Popovici/Cristescu and the PCR during the strikes (flimsy material so far, but I'll see if I can find out more)
• I'm quite surprised you missed these: Pancu's violent "alternative" to unionism, Corpul Muncitoresc Legionar, Stelescu's left turn, and Manoilescu's rants about corporatism (with their Legionary connections)
• Carol's strict corporatism (with Flueraş as leader)
• the PCR "uniting" unions (all the way to the UGSR)
• SLOMR
• Braşov Rebellion
• the Civic Alliance in relation to the unions
• Mineriads (or, at least, those that had labor aspects)
• other post-1990 strikes

Well, I'd say we've got a long way to go, but it's feasible. Oh, some pictures are available (though I'm guessing you've seen them). My collection of Magazin Istoric has an amazing number of PD socialist kitsch from the early labor movement (like the goddess of Liberty handing down a copy of Das Kapital to a bearded worker). I've got to get me a scanner. Dahn 22:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh: we can always sandbox it if you want to see how it will fit in. Your call. Dahn 22:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I say we put the Great Depression subarticle on hold (I don't object to it, but I want to see it fit in the overall history, and us concentrating on these things one at a time - or to let the format guide us, if you will). It is also a headache, because we have hundreds of articles to link it to, and we'd best start at some other point and move on from there - consolidation of the Greater Romania and Kingdom articles as a priority in this respect. On the main topic: I'll finish some stuff myself, and then I'll look into this a little bit more. Again, wonderful idea. Dahn 23:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

(I'm in the process of moving from British to American English, mainly because the spellcheck on firefox wants me to - while at it, I also began to enjoy it. I'll amend my ways for articles we both contribute to, so we don't end up writing in two languages.) Dahn 23:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I'll leave you to start it then, whenever you're ready. After all, we have labor and we have labour. ;) Dahn 23:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I've linked this to the PSDR article, but haven't really used it. Likely biased, but may provide some context. Dahn 23:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What can I say? Great minds think alike. Dahn 23:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 15 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lupeni Strike of 1929, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Mulţumesc --BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tarnaveni, changes

I will write in romanian it's about small changes in that article where he put a text that has nothing to do with that context: Ai adaugat o fraza stearsa pentru care de câtva vreme mă tot lupt să o şterg. În primu rând contextul în care îi introdusă îi aiurea înainte era vorba de atestarea documentară a localităţii din 1276 după care se zice de o nouă perioadă în care apare pomenită localitatea în 1502, iar tu introduci textu despre Trianon din 1918 între. În plus că textul îi tendenţios, da se pare că ţie nu îţi pare, deşi dacă te uiţi la istoria modificarilor chiar şi maghiarii îs de aceaşi parere. O să reşterg fraza şi sper să înţelegi şi tu motivul. Spor la treabă şi scris! Olario 09:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

contest

I just nominated the Hungarians' article for DYK. :)

Next time we do this, I think we should pick similar topics to each other. (As soon as we magyarok started arguing about historical interpretations and rightful kings, I immediately thought "damn those crafty Romanians, they gave us a controversial article on purpose! They know us too well!" LOL) Anyway, what do you know about folk music? We don't have a satisfactory article on Hungarian folk music and I doubt there is one on Romanian folk music.....then afterwards we can all collaborate on Music of Transylvania. :))) K. Lásztocska 14:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn, I didn't realize I'd put it up too early--I must have my preferences set for the wrong time zone. :( Terribly sorry...no foul play intended....K. Lásztocska 17:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahh, I knew I could count on Romanian generosity. :) *wink*....K. Lásztocska 17:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Next time let's use GMT on the 24-hour system for deadlines, to avoid confusions such as this exact one...K. Lásztocska 17:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh....Biru, dear, look at DYK on the main page.....K. Lásztocska 18:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Erm, never mind....they axed us...K. Lásztocska 18:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Only you could enjoy seeing a crowd of drunken hooligans spoil the memory of 1848. And yes, as you have noticed, my Hungarian is absolutely atrocious. I had the misfortune of being born in the United States and nobody in my family speaks Hungarian anymore, so I've been starting from scratch. Teaching myself, by the way. I have never taken any language lessons or classes in Hungarian because there AREN'T any where I live.

Contests just between you and Alensha? Sure, go to it. Exclude the stupid little külföldi. I'm sorry if I'm a little grumpy right now but I'm having a terrible time in my language studies right now (i.e. I'm making absolutely zero progress) and every time I'm reminded that I cannot speak the language of the country that my heart burns for, I feel pretty rotten. (me and Franz Liszt...the poor guy.)

For future contests, actually, it might be better to have the focus be on article creation, rather than strict translation. The ends justifying the means and all that good stuff--it shouldn't really matter how the article gets on EnWiki, just that it does. I'd be happy to work on Kodály, whether for a contest or not. Let me know if you like my folk music idea, because if it's not going to be a contest, I'll probably just start the article on my own. I could save it for a contest if you want.

Anyway, now we just have to wait and see: who gets to watch the other team write something embarrassing on their user pages?! K. Lásztocska 21:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Chicago? I wish! I'm from a much smaller city on the edge of, shall we say, the American Puszta. I have only met one other Hungarian here and I hardly ever see her. Thanks for your advice and the links, though. I'll be moving to a bigger city (don't know which one yet) in the fall when I enter conservatory, so I'll probably have better luck then.

OK, so maybe a few of the hooligans were actual Arrow Crossers, but I'm 100% sure that most of them were just your basic skinhead thugs and football hooligans--their leader is a guy called "Tomcat", for heaven's sake. K. Lásztocska 22:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

We both lost the contest, our noms are expired. :( K. Lásztocska 18:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL, nice work with the tiny yellow message. :) That is a good site! Looks like the English version is still under construction but between the lot of us we could mine the magyar version pretty thoroughly. I agree that our coverage of that period is pretty weak--I'm planning to focus more on 1848 for a while though. Actually I'm taking off for a few days, or at least will be contributing in reduced capacity, because I've somehow gotten into several very unpleasant exchanges over the last few days and I need a short break to get some perspective. (If I stick around and fight, I'll likely just blow my top and get blocked.) So szia later, ♠♣♥♦, be back soon. :) K. Lásztocska 19:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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Tampa, Brasov

Sources should be properly labelled, that is, not under an "External links" header etc. WP:DYK is fairly tough about that... Camptown 12:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Révai & Farkas

Hi,

I translated those two communists from huwiki.

Could you please add a pronunciation note to Nicolae Labiş' name? I've read one of his poems a few weeks ago, the one about the deer, and really liked it. I'm proud that he and me have the same birthday :) – Alensha  14:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Муромцев.jpg

Well, the picture emerges on several Russian websites, such as the liberal SPS Party. I think the quarrel has more to do with the "combatants" Sigh... --Camptown 22:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's really too sad that editors such as Ghirlandajo are leaving this project due to destructive participants of this project. --Camptown 22:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise. I turned out to have a point. By the way, I was not really a newbie then. Having edited anonymously on Dutch and German wiki. --Pan Gerwazy 16:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Estonian Insurgency of 1924

Hi! Sorry for being so silent, but I have had a lot to do and I kind of just did what you asked without saying a word about it to you or anyone else. Fortunately you noticed the article on the Trial of the 149 yourself. Now I have done also the article on the insurgency of 1924, but it needs a lot of editing as I did it fairly quickly and I make a lot of mistakes in articles. So feel free to edit and correct my text any way you consider necessary. I noticed that Andres had also started to work on this article, so I tried to keep most of his text you had already edited and just to add what I had done. Best regards, Toomas 09:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 19 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Tâmpa, Braşov, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 11:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I already noticed and have modified my userpage accordingly. I'm not actually gone, just taking it easy for a while. K. Lásztocska 16:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha, alright, Béla Lugosi, have your fun, you get to gloat for a week. Actually, although I'm none too fond of the exact way Trianon turned out and the nasty dealings leading up to it, I'm not really much of an irredentist--mind you, I wouldn't outright refuse a little sliver of south Slovakia and some of the more Hungarian parts of Erdély if they were offered on a golden platter, but I'm not losing sleep over it or anything. :) You already know I want some sort of autonomy for the Székely, but beyond that I think messing with the current borders would be WAY too much trouble for any potential gain. And of course I support the right of the Slovaks and whoever to have their own countries, I'm a liberal nationalist by philosophy anyway, it goes with the, erm, territory. :) They just did a terribly sloppy job of drawing the borders! K. Lásztocska 22:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh believe me, though I'm not especially religious, I have plenty of cheesy blood-and-soil, mystical, romantic, generally over-the-top 19th-century symphonic poem, Nemzeti dal, sword-of-Attila and turul-bird etc. kind of patriotic fervor as well. :) It's fun, and I've always had perhaps too much fondness for the various banners and trappings of overblown patriotism--no matter how liberal, pacifist and anti-fascist I may be, God knows I can't help but thrill at the sight of a regiment of hussars in full dress uniform riding ceremonially by, I get tears in my eyes when writing/reading about 1956 and the early days of 1848, I've always been big on national holidays, ceremonial commemorations, etc., I could go on and on but I'm sure you get the point. :) Last Thursday (March 15) I leaped out of bed much earlier than I can usually muster and proceeded to fervently recite the Nemzeti dal from the top of the stairs (by which I accomplished nothing but scaring the bejesus out of my cat.) So you and I may have more in common than we think, except the obvious glaring difference.... ;)

As for reading something in Romanian--I can already decipher some things in Romanian, given its similarity to Latin and French (neither of which I actually know but I've sort of absorbed them through the ambient culture.) I'll take a look at that article later and see if I can make heads or tails of it....K. Lásztocska 03:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Translation

Sorry, I do not have time now to translate article about Dositej Obradović, so perhaps you should ask somebody else. I planed to post demographics data into all articles about municipalities in former Yugoslavia, and until I finish this, I would not have much time for other things. PANONIAN (talk) 23:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

CHICOTW

	Chicago Collaboration of the Week
Last week you helped edit the Chicago COTW, but did not vote. Thank you for your help! Your input in future selections would also be appreciated. This week Beaches in Chicago has been chosen. Please help improve it towards the quality level of a Misplaced Pages featured article. See the To Do List to suggest a change or to see an open tasks list.
	Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Chicago

TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 00:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ulianov to Koba

Hey, man. I am tardy as usual, but I finally started something. Btw, I lapsed out of the contest: did we win? As a contributor to the article, I should be wearing the "Have your crappy Transylvania" tag - far from me to evade my commitments. Anyways, I see ours was up for DYK (congrats, btw), but, if theirs wasn't, were is their tag? (I'm kidding: though I'd like to know what happened, I will not be upset if they ought to but don't want to do it.) Dahn 02:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Cioroianu actually has an entire chapter about his death, and he may mention it there (I think he was cremated as well, and I'm pretty sure he was the main attraction inside the Tineretului Park monument). I'd rather not check it now, if you don't mind - I'm pretty tired, and will rather just resume myself to more relaxing activities, such as talking to you. Dahn 02:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Btw, the cremation article is quality. Dahn 02:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Great work on Labiş - I'll work on it from my side some time in the following days. Btw, this was a dilemma for me: most sources will indicate that he was a communist by convictions, and that he was on the left wing of opponents to the regime. I think he is due for inclusion in both the communists category and list (although I don't think he ever did join the party; he was nonetheless a rather prominent member of the UTC, and you may want to include him among the notable members in the UTC article). VT has some interesting insight on this. Anyways, something tells me you should expect someone else to come visit bearing tags... See you tomorrow. Dahn 03:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm going to let you down: Cioroianu does not mention cremation, and merely uses vague words that could mean just anything ("înmormântat"). It's amazing that it is not indicated anywhere in a chapter on how he died, especially since part of it is almost reportage-like. Dahn 21:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

As if it wasn't complicated enough: as of today, Tăriceanu replaced Ungureanu as foreign minister. Dahn 21:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The funniest thing is that I thought you emailed Cioroianu to ask him how he feels about Tăriceanu replacing Ungureanu :) - it only later dawned on me what you meant. (Btw, did you check out his site? It is rather amusing - all empty but for the weird personality cult.) Unfortunately, I haven't read Petreu, but I believe you when you say the book is good.

About the "relations": that style of articles seems like overkill to me, but I could live with and contribute to a series; nevertheless, at this stage in Romanian coverage they seem like luxury (plus, you know how much I hate stubs...).

An issue related to the Cabinet: should the PM/FM infoboxes list, under "political party", all parties the person was a member of, or just the one he belonged to while in office? (I would say "he or she", but we both know that is yet to happen...)

Rather than use the article on Malaxa, I would use the sources it uses (it anyway does seem to have been partly copy-pasted). But, yeah, it's something. Dahn 23:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what I figured. I was also thinking that, if we were to go with more parties, the infobox on Argetoianu would have been destined to become its own article. Dahn 01:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see rowiki is still in use as a propaganda tool... Anyway, I just created Grigore Iunian, and bumped into some detail on the Great Depression we may find useful later. Dahn 20:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Lupescu

I wondered if you might take a look at my remarks at Talk:Magda Lupescu#POV Footnotes and see if you have anything to say on the topic. - Jmabel | Talk 07:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. I say we cite the lot of them. Now I know where the implausible 1902 came from! (The one time she was forced to say something herself...) - Jmabel | Talk 16:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• This may finally stop people from repeatedly changing to a date that some one source considers definitive. - Jmabel | Talk 18:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Liberation" of Romania

Da, văd că vor să ne "elibereze" şi pe Misplaced Pages (vezi şi edit-ul ăsta: ). Momentan nu prea am f. mult timp, o să încerc să mă pun în temă şi să văd cum pot să ajut. Mulţumesc pentru mesaj, Mentatus 12:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Văd că articolul e pe mâini bune (tu, Dahn, Dpotop, Turgidson..) - aşa că momentan rămân în expectativă (cunoşti proverbul cu "Prea multe moaşe..." :). În orice caz, sper ca până la urmă să se dezamorseze conflictul şi să rămân doar la stadiul de intenţii bune (deşi Dante avea el o vorbă în privinţa asta :). Anyway, dacă e nevoie de mine, let me know. Mentatus 14:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Acum Petri Krohn face conexiuni provocatoare între 25 octombrie 1944 şi Soviet occupation of Romania, pe care o descrie ca "liberation": . Atac pe multiple fronturi... Mentatus 07:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Petri insistă. Poţi să arunci o privire la Armed Forces Day? Mulţumesc. Mentatus 08:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Providing assistance from beyond (wink, wink)

Hi. I meant to answer earlier, but did not have as much time time as I wanted to, and simply wondered aimlessly on wiki when I did have time.

On the peasantry issue: while it is hard not to mention at least some peasant revolts (due to their impact on organized labor), I think it would be a stretch to extend the article to them. Instead, I propose we focus on informing on the generic issues of the peasantry in three articles: the one on 1907, the one on Greater Romania, and a future one on Poporanism (I suppose more recent stuff can fit into "Economy of Romania" and its subordinates).

Oh, btw: my emphasis on reliable sources in relation to the Soviet occupation article was not aimed at either you or Turgidson, but some guys I had to deal with on related issues (well, you know...); hopefully, one will not have to deal with Gomaisms and Tricolorul. Now, since a certain someone is watching my every move, this may have sown the seed for the usual type of disruption on that page as well... Dahn 21:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. On your first comment, there is one more reason to go with your second over the first version: anybody can argue against the title, nobody could argue against the sources (also, I'm not actually sure if all sources would agree that it was a de facto occupation in, say, 1953-57, while they may all agree that it was one in 1944-19something). Dahn 21:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed you invited a lot of people to the discussion. However some of them previously expressed some anti-russian sentiments while others are openly anti-communist (thus anti-sovietic). Don't you think you should invite some Russians too (as Russia received the Soviet Union's seat in the UN) ? They could present the Soviet POV. Anonimu 20:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You've just attacked the entire Russian nation. Should i mention this to them when i invite them to the discussion?Anonimu 20:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the absolutist russia exploiting its peasants (better said serfs) and the few proletarians in its almost non-existent industry, not to mention non-ethnic russians... Anonimu 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 29 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Murat Yusuf, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Carabinieri 23:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Murat Yusuf

OK, n-am ştiut de regula asta. Am învăţat ceva nou :) Am adus numele la forma iniţială. Mentatus 06:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Tezele din iulie

That's a surprisingly good article (Except the part where liiceanu is called a talented writer). Probably the sources have an important role in the article's quality (there's no volodea or cioro ;) ) The original version of the article was surprisingly good -except the part where liiceanu was called a talented writer- and had a good credibility. However, some people, out of jealousy i think, decided to destroy your felicitous article about a deformed workers' state by adding some sources susceptible of bias. Now people will think that's just another piece of right-wing propaganda or part of the revenge of an old-guardist fallen in disgrace. Anonimu 19:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm so there. Dahn 19:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, no prob (and I wouldn't call it "clean up" - btw, you probably saw I took some sort of an issue with using "ibid", because it strikes as counter-productive... and counter-revolutionary). Sorry for not getting back to you on the other issues: I have pressing stuff to do in real life and I can only handle the bare minimum (though I couldn't prevent myself from producing the one article - mainly because there was no Romania-related DYK entry under preparation at the time). More on that to follow tomorrow.

The other issue is best clarified if you check your talk page history:

• original post
• my reply
• (I make use of Cioroianu)
• first modifications to the original post
• (I make use of Tismăneanu)
• the festival continues. Dahn 21:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Sorry for the confusion (to avoid this kind of misunderstanding, I generally make a citation after each sentence or so). Dahn 22:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh: I did have to use citneeded for Barbu's book - I couldn't find mention of that anywhere (whereas, incidentally, Preda speaks about the Canal in clear prose). In case you do have a citation, the article on Barbu could use it as well. Dahn 21:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, at least now Biru knows who Volodea is.Anonimu 21:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I frankly find it telling that you share the joy of Vadimists and other members of the Black Hundreds in using that nickname, Anonimu. The April Theses sure weren't lost on you ;). Dahn 22:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Is CTP a vadimist or a black hundredist? And don't use the "black ***" thingie... you sound like stolo with his black quadrilateral...Anonimu 22:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

If you were to ask me, the July Theses weren't lost on him either. But I think he should be less troubled by that than you. About the Black Hundreds, I think the point eluded you. Try again. Dahn 22:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Even Cartarescu? Oh, thanks god we have people like cioro who weren't affected... Sorry, i miss the point... Anonimu 22:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The only think I can say is thanks for the link. It will sure come in handy for the article, once the buzz there is over. Dahn 22:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, now don't use cartarescu.. he might be a good writer, but we all know he's pretty naive when it comes to politics... Anonimu 22:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Unlike Goma, huh? Dahn 22:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know anything about goma except his highly dubious "saptamana rosie" and his childish attitude towards tismaneanu. he looks a bit crazy if you'd ask me... BTW, what was the point with the black 100?Anonimu 10:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least we can agree on something. See Black Hundreds for the point I was making. Ain't it funny how so many of Ceauşescu's supporters also reveal themselves to be that? Not that it is my business or my goal here, but any pro argum,ent about any stage of Romanian Communism strikes me as paradoxical and utterly inept - I tried to tell you before, I can respect Trotskyism on some level, I can even sympathize with some form of Luxemburgism etc., but anything in the sweet tune of Stalinism would discredit anyone and immediately reveal the grotesque alliance of putrid far right and far left in Romania. That's my view, and that is what I saw seeping out of all this scandal. All that talk about "old Stalinist guards" is utterly ridiculous - the actual evil is national communism, and everything in Romania from the moment Dej emerged from prison was floating in that area. Pauker's supposed internationalism, for all the evil it took part in, was nothing compared to "our guys", who both initiated that evil and continued it when Pauker was long gone. In that context, all variations from Pătrăşcanu to Miron Constantinescu, are morally bankrupt. So there. Dahn 16:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but... Ceausescu's supporters also reveal themselves to be what? a bit crazy? black hundreds? funny? ceausescu's supporters? good writers? i don't get it. If you're talking about the Romanian implementation of communism you're right to a point.. if you're talking about romanian communism in general... i can't agree with that...Why do you respect Trotskyism "on some level"? Just because the movement was repressed by Stalin? that's not a good reason. What scandal are you referring to? You're talking about evil in a moral sense, a christian one, or a metaphysical one? Cause, except maybe in a deformed christian interpretation or a mccarthyist one, i can't see any real evil.Anonimu 17:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Your first question: Black Hundreds, when the mood suits them. Just ask yourself who was rehabilitating Antonescu in the 1980s... The scandal in question is the one involving Tismăneanu: if it weren't for the disgusting hypocrisy of Securitate henchmen and their various far right partners, we would just be having Goma making a fool of himself. Yes, I am talking about Romanian communism in general: aside from criminal, it was an innately corrupt system whose sole purpose was to support a quasi-monarchy under all sorts of weather. I some respect for Trotskyism for the same reason I respect the Jesuits: it takes intelligence to be a Trotskyist, to reformulate idiocy until it becomes an interesting sort of academic benign, to endlessly procrastinate the unlikely, and to ultimately proclaim that hell does exist, but it is always empty (which both Jesuits and Trotskyist seem to do). I also respect them somewhat because their conclusions are objectionable, but not entirely moronic (I can agree to disagree with both Trotskyists and Jesuits), and because, whatever their position lacks in, it does not lack in talent. I have the same kind of moderate interest in Syndicalists in relation to both Fascists and Anarchists - and even toward some Italian Fascists: absurdely wrong as they are, they are not ethically abhorrent. As for defining Evil: I define it based on my own criteria, as we all ultimately do. Just as I am not another, I couldn't possibly engage in a debate about whether I am right about being right, if you know what I mean. Nor did I or could I or would I ask you to debate the same. Dahn 19:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Tismaneanu's report is not objective. Since the others were afraid that, if they talk against it, will be labeled "Securitate officers" (and that's bad, because the non-bourgeois still think that communists gave them work, houses and even food before ceasca went mad, while the securitate were the one oppressing the people - strangely ,ceasca gave the impression that he also thought that), we needed some guys to denounce it. Sorry, I can't agree with you in regard to Romanian communism. Anonimu 20:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, more rhetoric. Dahn 20:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No, no rhetoric, truth. Anonimu 20:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Try again. Most of what I have seen you do is justifying the unjustifiable. In order for the word "truth" not to be utterly debased while sticking to Marxist dogma, you could be somewhat convincing if you turn "revisionist" or Troskyist or Socialist Libertarian or something. But truth and Neo-Stalinism just don't mix, and I suspect you know that yourself, given that you once in a while jump into the "degenerated workers' state" routine. Dahn 21:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It's your fault you bring low quality sources such as "volodea"(to quote cartarescu) or cioro (btw, if he becomes foreign minister wouldn't he be in a conflict of interests... i mean a historian and part of gvt.. doesn't seem quite right). Trotsky was a marxist-leninist.(BTW, Trotsky is the only Marxist whose political works i've read in original... about the works of others i've read just syntheses, but even Trotsky can be considered a synthetisator of Lenin sometimes... ) As i've already said, i preffer not to be a conformist, and i pick from every version of communism what i think its good and can be implemented in the reality (some of trotsky's ideas regarding family life seem to extreme). Those were deformed workers' states... but they were still workers' state to a point...Anonimu 21:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources Anonimu, Vadim, Voiculescu, Marian Oprea and Goma find questionable are not rendered questionable for all the bad taste publicity stunts. You must not know what a conflict of interest is to get to make that speculation (not to mention that, if it were, it would also be for Iorga, Gheorghe Brătianu, Constantin Stere, Virgil Madgearu, etc., which is too absurd to even consider). The rest of your argument is, sorry to say, yet more rhetoric to justify the unjustifiable. What you call a "preference for not being a conformist" is one of those demagogic syncretisms that allow the stale praxis to save face by toying with various dogmas (i.e. an attempt to fool all the people all of the time). I am perfectly aware of were Trotsky stood in relation to Lenin - I'll say it again: if you have to be a Marxist, those are options I can have some respect for, with or without the Leninist content. All of them have seen the innate absurdity of praxis, and each has tried to pretend it could be avoided - even when Trotskyists blamed everything bad on Stalinism, they were at least doing it ith talent. Much more talent than it takes one to sit around presently and hijack their principles to make a point about how "life wasn't so bad back in the degenerate workers' state". Dahn 21:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey don't put me in the same series with Voiculescu ;). Cioro is in "a position of trust" (he is a historian), and would have "competing professional interests"(as a member of a liberal gvt). So he may use his position as historian to present liberal propaganda as facts. So we're back to the romanian mind-reading. Hey, at least i know were i stand, i'm not an adherent to some "strutocamila" like "nationalist communism", PRM or "anarcho-capitalism". Trotsky blamed also capitalism and british socialists. btw, romania was never a workers' state to be degenerated...Anonimu 22:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Cioroianu is an a position of trust as an academic, and he is unlikely to lose tenure if he becomes a member of government (just as he did not when elected to the Senate); there is nothing in his status that would be breached, and he would not lose any grain of credit because Anonimu thinks he may (just as Iorga was no less of a historian for being a PM, and a lousy PM at it). The theory about "propaganda" is ridiculous. I can only assume you are presenting these false dilemmas in an attempt to abuse my good will in replying, but I assure you that I'm done debating on this topic (especially after being called to answer issues pertaining to mind-reading etc). Actually, you do not appear to know where you stand, and are not, IMO, very far removed from either of the examples you cite (except, I guess, "anarcho-capitalism"). I know what Trotsky also blamed, and it is not relevant to the point I was making. Dahn 23:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

There's an ethical question: Is it right for a state official to write the history, especially the part about his political rivals? Iorga was not a good historians... is one of the best we have had... but when you compare (all) romanian historiography with (some of) the western one you'll notice that he was just a mediocre nationalist historian. I know very well were i stand. Maybe i'll write a book and call it _{my name}-ism. (Of course, now it's not the right time, cause communism, paradoxically, needs a pretty developed capitalism system exploiting people to succeed.) Yeah, i agree that sometimes i imply that i may side with Ceausescu's nationalist pov.. maybe i'm just a bit opportunistic.Anonimu 11:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

.

it's not sophistry, it's the truth. Anonimu 21:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The 200 figure is not reliable ("eye-witnesses to the incident estimate" 200, but how could they count under heavy fire? weren't they busy trying to stay alive?). And again, try using that logic your so fond of... after numerous encounters with armed groups trying to cross the border, wouldn't you expect a group trying to illegally cross the border to be armed?Anonimu 22:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

1.You'll surely overestimate... you're in a stressful condition.... 2.It depends on the circumstances.. this was a justified act... 3. Probably if in 1918 Romania would have accepted a border following ethnic lines, this would have never had happened....Anonimu 22:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

How would you know? The article implies that judging by the number the missing persons, there were about 50 casualties. Soviet border guard didn't know they were unarmed... and we don't know either... human shield was a trendy tactic... In 1918 romania would have had a word to say. khotin stayed more in polish hand than in moldavian&romanian ones, while storojnet was a jewish town... before the jews were exterminated by antonescu's troops.Anonimu 22:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

What are bolshevist lies? MW says a massacre is " the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty". This is not the case here.Anonimu 10:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't now you're also a Holocaust denier. Probably all those jews went on holiday in transnistria and, antonescu, as a good man, wanted to help them by transporting them in trains used for cattle. And no, the act of the soviet was motivated, not atrocious, not cruel. Anonimu 17:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

How should i call someone who calls a hero a guy who ordered the killing of hundreds of thousand of jews? He was trying to save them when he ordered the killing of 200 jews for every dead romanian officer, and 100 jews for every romanian soldier? soviet soldiers had all the right to shoot... the 200 figure is an overestimation... mass murder is what Antonescu has ordered to be done in odessa...Anonimu 17:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The order no. 302.826 in which he demanded “immediate retaliatory action, including the liquidation of 18,000 Jews in the ghettos and the hanging in the town squares of at least 100 Jews for every regimental sector" is a good example? The fact that he didn't do nothing to some regat jews excuses him from being a holocaust perpetrator? Yes they had. This has nothing to do with the political or religious views of the soldiers (about which, anyway, you know nothing). It may be a massacre in a figurative sense. Just like some environmentalists use "massacre" for the killing of lambs before Easter (however the lambs didn't do anything illegal and there's no suspicion that they are armed)...Anonimu 18:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

That's the lamest excuse i've heard.. even from a holocaust denier... Was he the commander of the troops in transnistria... did he decide to deport some jews from the regat and most of the jews from bukovina and bessarabia? Then yes, it was a holocaust perpetrator. I'm sure the authors of 9/11 thought the same about war and Islam.. this just shows you're just a fundamentalist... like most iron guard members. What else do you know? "scoti argintu viu, dezlegi cununiile legate, vindeci de deochi si descanti de bani si fericire"?Anonimu 18:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Metaphors and sarcasm aside, I'm with Anonimu on the Antonescu issue (though I think he's using these facts rather opportunistically). Dahn 19:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Most holocaust deniers say the same... romanians voted tony because they were "indobitociti" (flavour would have been lost in translation) by Ceausescu's nationalist policy. The ones killed by the orders of a nazi ally died in Holocaust. I thought the iron guard was the one setting up theaters for jews... And he didn't protect any jews, he was just indifferent to some of the jews in the regat. A guy responsible for the death of 300,000 jews is a Holocaust perpetrator. Please don't insult one of the great religions of the world. After indiscriminately insulting russians and muslims, what comes next? I've never said that... that would have been pretty strange, since the iron guard was disbanded some 60 years ago. And I'm the Truth... now who's better?Anonimu 20:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Cite what? the fact that holocaust deniers usually deny they are ones? Then you should stop speaking like one. What great service? He sent soldiers to die in the steppe for Hitler's dream? Sorry, i missed the part where he did something good. Now we cite Goma.. great... How would you fell if someone called your religion false? and you insulted russians on my talk page, of course, then you tried to find lame excuses. Hey, i've never claimed i'm "the life"...Anonimu 20:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh man, tomorrow i'll search something for you. Yes you do. She got that territories with no fight, so it was a kind of compensation. Yeah, he sat in Paris and wrote defamatory literature. great fighter he was... Go to my talk page and you'll see where you've insulted them. Yeah, you love despotism, authoritarianism, christian fundamentalism... something new? And i still do.Anonimu 21:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you do. Romania did not fight in (for) Bukovina or Bessarabia in ww1. But they did nothing, even if the knew. Does "the forces of darkness to give their Satanic opinions" sound familiar? But those concepts were representative for Imperial Russia. Integralism... the wiki template on it's article says it all... why? Anonimu 22:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Now, you don't.. but an hour ago you did. And you are one. No, the romanian population of those territories decided, ignoring the will of the other nations, to unite with Romania. Like? Sorry, i was talking about russians, and your reply was the one quoted above. So you deny the objectivity and factual accuracy of wiki as a project? Why do you keep contributing then? God is a trinity. Can't the truth also be something similar?Anonimu 22:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

But you still consider one of the main non-german Holocaust perpetrators a hero. In Bessarabia "romanians and moldavians" were just the plurality (but less than 50%), while in bukovina they were the second most populous nation, after Ukrainians. Wow... I was not talking about inviting only russians with a soviet pov... i was saying about inviting russians. So maybe what you wrote is not true either... I've never claimed that.Anonimu 11:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

(*sigh*. this is why I don't trust communists...) K. Lásztocska 21:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You are quite right when saying that he's using this "opportunistically." In another forum, he took the opposite direction of defending Antonescu. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Send a link to my user account on that other forum with the discussion when i had such an attitude. I you're right (and i decide so) , i'll write "I am a hypocrite" on my wiki user page for a week. (note that there i usually was pretty ambiguous, and as the author, i have the right to interpret my "work" the way i want to ;) )Anonimu 19:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

To be mean: he's been reading his Nechayev ;). Dahn 19:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

so i was right after all

about what? K. Lásztocska 22:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

about everything

you wish.

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