Talk:Second Chechen War: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 20:43, 14 December 2022 editOla Tønningsberg (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users847 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 05:03, 20 October 2024 edit undoCewbot (talk \| contribs)Bots7,266,112 editsm Maintain {{WPBS}}: 3 WikiProject templates. The article is listed in the level 5 page: Russian Federation.Tag: Talk banner shell conversion
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	Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks.		Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks.

	== ~~Image~~ ~~caption~~ ~~incorrect?~~ ==		== Marked as assassinated ==
	There's an image captured "Grozny, the capital city of Chechnya, in March 1995 during the Second Russo-Chechen War", showing the destroyed city of presumably Grozny. The image is confusing: it appears in an article about the Second Chechen War, taking place in 1999 and 2000, printed next to a paragraph about the ''Second'' Battle of Grozny, also having taken place in those years. Either it's an image of destroyed Grozny during the First Chechen War and thus doesn't belong in this article, or it's a photograph of Grozny during the Second Chechen War, which makes date stated in the caption impossible. Either way, the caption is definitely wrong. Am I just confused?
	] (]) 09:51, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

			I propose to mark Rizvan Akhmadov and Gaidar Gadzhiyev as assassinated in the info box. Dokka Umarov and Sulim Yamadayev were also assassinated, albeit outside of the war. ] (]) 01:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
	== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
	The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: speedy \| 2022-04-04T13:07:15.038523 \| Second Russo-Chechen war.Mira street. February 6, 2000 Grozny fell.webp -->
	You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —] (]) 13:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

			== Nonexistent first sentence ==
	== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
	The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
	* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion \| 2022-04-04T15:37:07.276226 \| Second Russo-Chechen war.Mira street. February 6, 2000 Grozny fell.webp -->
	Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 15:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

			The beginning of the article goes nowhere. ] (]) 17:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
	== Deleting information ==

			::Fixed. ] (]) 23:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
	I am going to post my sources, The New York Times and a research paper from Tufts University that itself quotes John Dunlap, Human Rights Watch, Robert Seely, and Christopher Zurcher, all experts in the field, since every time I post this information it is deleted.

			== Consensus discussion to rename this page ==
	Estimates of the number of civilians killed range widely from 20,000 to 100,000, with the latter figure commonly referenced by Chechen sources. Most scholars and human rights organizations generally estimate the number of civilian casualties to be 40,000; this figure is attributed to the research and scholarship of Chechnya expert John Dunlop, who estimates that the total number of civilian casualties is at least 35,000. This range is also consistent with post-war publications by the Russian statistics office estimating 30,000 to 40,000 civilians killed. The Moscow-based human rights organization, Memorial, which actively documented human rights abuses throughout the war, estimates the number of civilian casualties to be a slightly higher at 50,000. The number of ethnic Russian civilian losses is estimated at 25,000-30,000, or roughly 85% of the total deaths.

			There is an open consensus discussion to rename this page: ]. It's a double RM, also to rename ]. Please participate if you can! We need as many opinions as possible. Thank you. -- ]] 14:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
	There is no commonly accepted methodology for counting civilian fatalities during the First Chechen War. Most attempts to record fatalities focused on combatant deaths. Neither party to the conflict recorded accurate numbers of civilian deaths, and any records failed to disaggregate victims based on ethnicity. Although the Russian statistics office published a list citing approximately 40,000 civilian casualties in the war’s aftermath, the humiliating defeat of Russia’s first military campaign in Chechnya and the resulting unwillingness of Russian officials to provide accurate accounts of civilian or military losses have complicated efforts to determine total civilian casualties on both sides. Chechen officials have also released estimates of total casualties for both this conflict (1994 – 1996) and a second conflict (1999 – 2000), estimating losses at 160,000, but the figures are not further disaggregated. Efforts to verify statistics were further complicated by the lack of independent monitors and journalists on the ground in Chechnya during the wars.

			== Move discussion in progress ==
	Nonetheless, sources estimate that a large percentage of civilian fatalities occurred during the invasion of Grozny between December 1994 and March 1995. From the beginning of the invasion to the middle of February, fatality estimates range from 25,000 to 30,000 civilian deaths. This range indicates that the majority of the civilian fatalities in the entire war occurred during a mere four-month window. Of the estimated 25,000 killed in the invasion of Grozny, it is estimated that 18,000 were killed by mid January. According to General Dudayev, the first president of the Chechen Republic, 85 percent of civilians killed in the invasion (approximately 25,500) were ethnic Russians due to the fact that the Chechens were the first to evacuate the capital; this estimate is close to the figure put forward by Russian human rights campaigner Sergei Kovalyov, who estimated the number of ethnic Russian deaths at 24,000. The ethnic Russian population in Chechnya was 24.5% in the last Soviet census of 1989. In the 2006 census, ethnic Russians accounted for 3.4% of the population of Chechnya. ] (]) 02:36, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

			There is a move discussion in progress on ] which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:First Chechen War#Requested move 21 February 2024 crosspost --> —] 14:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
	:Whatever that is, this level of detail does not go ''in the goddamn lead of the article'', which is supposed to be a summary of the contents of the article, not a brand new expansion of them. ] (] / ]) 02:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
	:This seems to be mostly about the ]. ]<sub>]</sub> 17:53, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

	Yes, but most of the casualty estimates, etc...are estimates for both conflicts, not strictly for just the 2nd Chechen War. In fact, most of the information combines both conflicts. Most sources agree on 35,000-40,000 civilian casualties, 50,000 is the highest reliable estimate I've seen. Most also, as I referenced a New York Times article, 3rd party historians on Chechnya, official office of statistics figures, official censuses, and even leaders from Chechnya itself, agree that 85% of civilian casualties were ethnic Russians, most of them in the beginning of the first war. But if figures from both wars are going to be combined like they are throughout this article, I certainly think it's only fair to point that fact out... <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== Sources ==

	{{u\|Ola Tønningsberg}}, thanks for adding information to the article. I've checked a small part of the sources you used and found a few problems:
	* Quoting only the upper bound of the range given in the source
	* No sources for a claim
	* Using a very dubious source for an ] claim
	* Using a passing mention in a newspaper article when much better sources are available

	Could you please review all the content that you have added and make sure it's supported by reliable sources? ]<sub>]</sub> 16:10, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
	{{od}}
	{{u\|Alaexis}}
	* '''1.''' The first source mentions the 9,000-11,000 killed range for Russian soldiers. The second source states 11,000 killed in the same period based on names provided by Russian families to the organization. Therefore I drew the conclusion as a general consensus of the sources that 11,000 Russian soldiers were definitely killed in this time frame. However, based on the two sources provided we will leave it as it is from your latest edit.

	* '''2.''' Added sources from Human Rights Watch (https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/1.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/4.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/5.htm, https://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/eca/chechnya0403/6.htm)

	* '''3.''' The source quotes a study conducted by the Chechen minister of health. Additional sources (https://tergam.info/2019/07/18/%D0%B8%D0%B7%D1%8A%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%85-%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D1%83-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B8/, https://www.kavkaz-uzel.eu/articles/36730), Transcript of the documentary "Commerce d'hommes - Tortures d'enfants" ( http://tchetchenieparis.free.fr/text/MS-commerce-6-01.htm#4 )

	* '''4.''' For now I will agree with your latest edit, in light of more numerous sources.

	Thanks for pointing out these inconsistencies.] (]) 20:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

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Insurgent apologist comments removed

Removed an questionable comment without source "most of the attacks were carried out against military forces" and replaced with link to specific attacks.

Marked as assassinated

I propose to mark Rizvan Akhmadov and Gaidar Gadzhiyev as assassinated in the info box. Dokka Umarov and Sulim Yamadayev were also assassinated, albeit outside of the war. Swesbed (talk) 01:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Nonexistent first sentence

The beginning of the article goes nowhere. Salmoonlight (talk) 17:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. 2601:85:C100:46C0:60A7:7A37:DB86:666F (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Consensus discussion to rename this page

There is an open consensus discussion to rename this page: Talk:First_Chechen_War#Requested_move_21_February_2024. It's a double RM, also to rename First Chechen War. Please participate if you can! We need as many opinions as possible. Thank you. -- GreenC 14:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Chechen War which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

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