| Revision as of 03:58, 29 August 2021 editGrayfell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers83,028 edits →BLP CAT concerns: Reply← Previous edit |
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== Comments on 2024 Presidential Campaign == |
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==Request for a change to the article== |
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I am requesting that the use of far-right be changed to conservative or right--leaning. Far-right implies that she is a fascist, or a nazi, etc.. I understand that this issue has come up often, but if so many people have complained, what do you think that means? ] (]) 17:23, 9 July 2020 (UTC) |
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== Blatant leftist bias == |
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Any reason Ms. Coulter is described as "far-right", while the articles for Rachel Maddow, Keith Olberman, Don Lemon, etc, etc, etc, etc don't describe them as "far-left"? <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 04:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Anne Coulter states Kyle Rittenhouse for President of the United States. == |
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Anne Coulter supports <blp violation> (Kyle Rittenhouse) and would like him to be president. ] (]) 14:07, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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: ] (]) 14:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::The edit was rightly removed as it had no citations and the claims being made were clear BLP violations against Coulter and Rittenhouse. As a minor point it failed to mention Coulter's comment was a tweet reply and more a comment of support vs clear statement of her intent. More importantly, {{u|Mmm123n}}'s edit stated Coulter supported a "white supremicist" and "serial killer" for president. That sort of implication needs clear RS which neither the WP nor this source support.] Second, it makes accusations against Rittenhouse, who is not a public figure, that are both serious and again unsubstantiated. That is why the post from a novice user was rightly removed. You restored it and clearly saw at least some of the issues as you removed some text here ]. I've removed additional BLP violations as part of this edit. ] (]) 15:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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Ann Coulter flat-out told ] to "go back to her country", then brought up cow worship and ]s in a rant about India. I’m not sure if that’s worth mentioning in this article, although it’s unusual since Haley is a fellow Republican. She hasn’t endorsed Trump yet, as far as I know, and it’s not clear who she actually supports for president in 2024. She really needs to tone it down a bit, because she keeps making more enemies for herself as well. ] (]) 05:51, 17 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*I've removed the Rittenhouse controversy material from the article. People like Coulter make many provocative comments. Their BLP should not turn into a laundry list of every thing they said that caused a stir among the various talking heads in the media. Additionally, this is an extremely RECENT event so we have no way of knowing if this how this will pan out in the end. Treating this with the same WEIGHT as other controversies is simply not DUE at this time and likely not due in the future. ] (]) 15:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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She just told Vivek Ramaswamy that she agrees with a lot of what he says but she wouldn't vote for him because he's Indian: https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1788388787556389044 |
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I added this to controversies, but I do understand it being a very recent event. It will likely deserve at least a line at some point. I tried to add balance in my edit, at the very least, and did not reference Rittenhouse as a serial killer or white supremacist. One, Rittenhouse is a spree killer by definition; and two, although information proves that he was a strong police supporter and militia supporter, there has not been official information alleging white supremacy yet. Coulter's page overall needs some editing and rearranging though, so hopefully this will draw attention. ] (]) 15:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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As for your last sentence, this page is not the place to express opinions about what subjects of articles (or anyone else) ought to do. -- ] (]) 09:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:To be clear, the BLP comments above relate only to what Mmm123n said. I didn't see anything in your edit that violated BLP rules for Coulter or Rittenhouse. My concern is only that the comment is RECENT. We run into this on a number of BLP pages. We have people who say things that get reactions from others. That Coulter says things that cause angry reactions in the media/talk shows etc is worthy of inclusion in her BLP. Each individual example/instance that supports the general idea that she says provocative things isn't DUE. A decent way to structure this sort of content in the article might be "Coutler's public comments have frequently received criticism by other commentators. Examples include X, Y, Z" We wouldn't do a subtopic on each X, Y and Z. ] (]) 15:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC) |
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::I agree with {{u|Springee}} about the issue of ] weight, Seems a lot of pages with political figures have problems with ] , personally I find the way to deal with recentism is to give the criteria a ]. This is an encyclopedia after all, not a gossip blog. ] (]) 22:09, 12 March 2021 (UTC) |
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== Far-right claim == |
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== Jimmie (not Jimmy) Walker == |
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Only two of the four sources provided actually label her far-right. The other two use the words alt-right, but do not label her as such. The two misused sources should be removed. Whoever entered them is probably an idiot. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:30, 27 September 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Correction needed. ] (]) 18:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:I found a reference to Coulter as 'far right' in all of the articles that I checked. Looking more closely at her views in the article, it's very clear that she's a far right personality. Far-right and alt-right aren't mutually exclusive. -- ] (]) 13:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
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:I believe that the first insertion was by ], . Looking at earlier threads about this on this talk page, I see that there have been objections by ] and ] and ]. The first cite is to Washington Post's "The Fix" which is a blog according to and . The second cite is to "Paste" (whatever that is), which doesn't say she is far right, but says "far-right politics is the only arena where Coulter really does know what she’s talking about". The third cite is to "Times of Israel" which indeed says she is a "far-right pundit". The fourth cite is to a headline in "The Guardian". I'd call "far-right" poorly sourced, but won't remove. ] (]) 14:38, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::: I'm assuming that's ], which is a reliable source for pop culture, but the last RfC on ] was closed as no consensus as to how reliable it is for politics. Better sources exist. Also, Chris Cillizza is a reputable reporter (he's also employed by CNN)... Likewise with Amber Phillips. She's an analyst. You'll notice that those aren't blogs: they're labeled as "Analysis", which actually means it's in the news stable, and not considered opinion. ] (]) 09:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::I would agree we don't have sufficient sourcing to use "far-right" as that can be seen as a controversial label. Are editors OK with changing it to "right-wing" or "conservative" and dropping the associated citations out of the lead? ] (]) 15:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::: No. If these sources are insufficient, then more sources can obviously be found. By that, I mean that it's obvious that she's regularly characterized this way in media, unless you actually think she's not a figure regularly associated with the far-right? These sources obviously exist; a good-faith effort should be made to see ascertain whether this is a label applied with any regularity, rather than simply throwing in the towel because it's "controversial". In just a cursory search, I found over two dozen such sources. Not counting at least half a dozen more examples from the Guardian alone. And about two dozen which associate her with the far-right, but don't label her as such exclusively (usually opting for "contoversial"; most of these are related to the Berkeley event of alt-right speakers). A few of them: Forbes<ref>https://www.forbes.com/sites/sethcohen/2020/07/10/ann-coulter-endorsed-a-democrat/</ref>, Associated Press (News)<ref>https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-rush-limbaugh-ann-coulter-immigration-eugene-robinson-35a0c976eacb4100a3bb2539d3247b38</ref>, another Guardian one (there are several, as I said)<ref>https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/21/ann-coulter-berkeley-protesters-arrests</ref>, The Jerusalem Post <ref>https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/ann-coulter-slams-asians-jews-who-think-theyre-black-re-immigration-580104</ref>, LA Times<ref>https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-berkeley-free-speech-week-20170914-story.html</ref>, Business Insider<ref>https://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-katie-hopkins-donald-trump-retweets-migrants-cockroaches-2019-7</ref>. |
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:{{already done}} by ]. <span class="nowrap">–]</span> (] • ]) 19:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::: I think that's sufficient (ten total?), especially with the existing Guardian and Times of Israel. There's more too, if that's necessary. Also, as I said in my response to Peter Gulutzman, both of those writers he named for "The Fix" actually write news analysis; they're not opinion columnists. ] (]) 09:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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== Cyberbullying Edit == |
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:::: Far-right is a controversial label and shouldn't be applied in the opening sentence or in wiki voice. Please see this current VP discussion ]. We can't show this is a universal description nor is it a objective description. Thanks to key word searches we can find examples of sources that use the term but consider how many articles mention Coulter vs how many justify the term. It's better to describe her positions and actions vs force the description into the lead. This is especially true since the body doesn't say why this label is used in the lead. ] (]) 12:02, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::: It's nearly impossible to ask that all our sources be in agreement at all times in their characterization of a subject. Asking that any descriptors be "universal" and "objective" is far too high of a bar that's rarely achievable. It's always contentious. And arguments of special pleading are always used to try to remove generally-held descriptions of the ideology professed by BLP subjects. I also disagree that "far right" is overly controversial; if we were claiming she were alt-right, that would be a different matter. But "far right" is not some bogeyman or insult, but something with a generally understood meaning that's used not only in commentary and journalism, but in academia as well. |
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::::: I reiterate that I find it hard to believe someone doesn't think Ann Coulter is far-right and/or regularly says things that would be classed as talking points of the far right. Assuming you read her work and see her on television, which I assume most of us have, a great deal of what she says is little different from the sorts of things that ] is famous for saying. It's what she's primarily known for, and arguably a large part of what makes her notable. She doesn't typically comment on issues of traditional conservatism or classical liberalism, but is known for saying provocative things about culture, religion, race, and ethnicity that fall outside the expectations of typical conservative commentary. As a few of the sources I linked essentially state (though I'm paraphrasing), she's seen as one of the "faces regularly associated with the far right". It would be contrary to NPOV actually omit that characterization. ] (]) 14:54, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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Change the reference of Gus Walz having ADHD to "As a teen, he was diagnosed with nonverbal learning disorder, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and anxiety." Per The Washington Post, Gus Walz melted hearts at the DNC, putting neurodiversity in the spotlight - By Carolyn Y. Johnson, August 22, 2024 at 4:37 p.m. EDT ] (]) 21:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::We know this is your view -- and we also know that others take a different view. With sufficient sources ("sufficient" as judged via the discussion/consensus here) it can/will happen. ] (]) 12:55, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::IMPARTIAL and BLP are both policy and apply to this article. ] (]) 12:58, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::: Come to think of it, reading this over, I'm a little concerned that there is a bit of a case of moving goalposts here. Your initial argument in the proposal to change the label to "conservative" or "right-wing" is that the sourcing was inadequate/too weak to support the prior label. Now that the sourcing is adequate, you're opposed based on the fact that you don't like the label "far-right" being applied, at all, on principle? ] (]) 14:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::There is a difference between "conservative" or "right-wing" and "far-right". How do we define where the line is between right and far-right? It's a subjective determination and one that is often controversial. I suspect Coulter would self identify as conservative/right but would she agree with far-right? Again, consider the current VP discussion regarding the use of labels in lead sentences (or the lead in general). ] (]) 17:50, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::When I wrote that The Fix "is a blog according to and ", the references that I supplied were merely to show that The Fix is a blog. Google "The Washington Post's political analysis blog" and you'll find plenty more saying that is what The Fix is. The reply from Symmachus Auxiliarus is not relevant. ] (]) 13:10, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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::::: I did indeed misspeak there. You're correct, it is a political blog, giving analysis and commentary on news from other sources. It also seems to predate Cillizza's work as a correspondent, or as an analyst at CNN. I agree that it should classed be a second-tier source, as its primary purpose is obviously commentary (and thus, entertainment). I wouldn't use it for this purpose any more than I would the Paste reference. Regardless, the rest of the sourcing that I provided is more than adequate. ] (]) 14:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC) |
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== Non verbal learning disorder, not non verbal autism == |
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{{reflist talk}} |
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In cyber bullying section it says Gus walz has nonverbal autism, which is a condition where an autistic person has not learned to speak (is non verbal). This is incorrect. What he has is a non verbal learning disability, which means a disability affecting learning non verbal skills. This is completely different. |
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== BLP CAT concerns == |
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna167804 ] (]) 19:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC) |
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The following CATs are a concern per ], "Category:Opposition to Islam in the United States", "Category:American conspiracy theorists". To use a category on a BLP it needs to be something we could say in wiki voice. The second one is easy as we are dealing with a single conspiracy theory. That is not sufficient to call Coulter a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice and thus is not enough to include the category. The same is true of the Islam tag. It seems her comments, per this article, are primarily related to Islamic terrorism and again, per CATDEF, this must be a central aspect not just one of many. That she is a conservative commentator is a central aspect. Her views on Islam are not. {{ping|Grayfell|EricSDA}} as recently involved. ] (]) 22:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{fixed}}. <span class="nowrap">–]</span> (] • ]) 19:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:These categories are supported by content in the article. So, if this about BLP, the burden would be on you would first have to explain why this reliably-sourced content, which is already in the article, is either not in fact reliably-sourced or doesn't belong for some other reason. If you want to discuss whether or not these categories are proportionate, do so on their own merits. Source pretty clearly and consistently support this, to to invoke BLP preemptively is either ignoring sources or is using ] to escalate a relatively minor content issue. Since that would be be tendentious, I will assume you have some specific, good faith reason to challenge this content. If this is indeed strictly about categories, please explain this in a less inflammatory manner. ] (]) 23:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:: I'm not sure why this is inflammatory. To be clear, this is specifically about the inclusion of the categories, not the article content. Do any of the sources actually say she ''is'' a conspiracy theorist? Same with the other cat (does that cat even have a clear definition?). If no sources say she is, then we certainly cannot in wiki voice. Remember, the standard for a category is at minimum we have to be able to say it in wiki voice (even if we don't specifically say it). Additionally, since this is a BLP contentious claims need consensus to include. This is currently a local, no consensus. Consensus aside these are simply aspects of the person, not a defining characteristic hence why the cats violate BLP. ] (]) 23:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Absent follow up I've removed the conspiracy theorist CAT as violating CATDEF and NOCON to keep (contentious claim about a BLP subject). I think the same applies to the Islam CAT but most of this discussion was related to the conspiracy CAT. ] (]) 19:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::The article already states this, per multiple reliable sources: {{tq|Coulter is an advocate of the white genocide conspiracy theory.<ref>{{cite news |title=Trump Wants Pompeo to Study 'Killing of Farmers' in South Africa |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/world/africa/trump-south-africa-white-farmers.html |newspaper=] |date=August 23, 2018 |access-date=2019-01-29 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180827021629/https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/world/africa/trump-south-africa-white-farmers.html |archive-date=2018-08-27 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=The creeping spectre of "white genocide" |url=https://theoutline.com/post/4486/the-creeping-spectre-of-white-genocide |publisher=] |date=May 9, 2017 |access-date=2019-01-29 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20181011125109/https://theoutline.com/post/4486/the-creeping-spectre-of-white-genocide |archive-date=2018-10-11 |url-status=live }}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title=Why Ann Coulter is dead wrong about immigration in America |url=https://www.dailydot.com/via/ann-coulter-immigration/ |work=] |date=May 28, 2015 |access-date=2019-01-29 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20190115030115/https://www.dailydot.com/via/ann-coulter-immigration/ |archive-date=2019-01-15 |url-status=live }}</ref>}} Your stated inability to understand why this is inflammatory is also irrelevant. BLP is not served by being over-cautious, and neutrality is harmed when we preemptively exclude content because it ''might'' be unflattering. Other than this, I still have not seen anything close to a compelling argument for why this is a BLP issues. ] (]) 19:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::For what it's worth, it is trivially easy to find reliable sources which describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist (which should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with her work) |
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::::https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/26/pipe-bombs-false-flag-claims-ann-coulter-rush-limbaugh-conspiracy-theories |
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::::https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/06/18/migrant-kids-are-child-actors-ann-coulter-says-on-fox-news-telling-trump-not-to-be-fooled/ |
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::::etc. |
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::::Further, many, many sources will describe something as a conspiracy theory and then mention Coulter as a proponent of it. Any ambiguity here is only superficial. These sources are saying that she is known as a conspiracy theorists as the term is commonly understand. Expecting a juicy pull-quote for every statement is unrealistic, among other problems. ] (]) 19:40, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Much of what your claim supports the tag isn't in the article and the limited information in the article doesn't satisfy DEFCAT. Per NOCON the tag needs to be removed until there is consensus to include. That some key word searched sources say she promotes a conspiracy theory is not sufficient to call her a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice. Per BLP standards that must be a high bar. ] (]) 19:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|Grayfell}} I looked over your sources. Neither are sufficient to describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist in wiki-voice. That is the standard needed to apply a contentious tag to a BLP article. None of your sources say she ''is a conspiracy theorist''. Per CATDEF, "''A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people)''" Sources consistently define Coulter as a pundant/commentator and as a conservative. They do not ''consistently'' define her as a conspiracy theorist. In fact I don't think we have a single source that says she is a conspiracy theorist. As such the tag violates CATDEF as well as BLP. ] (]) 22:52, 28 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Repeating the claim that this violates BLP does not make it persuasive nor does it make it accurate. As I specifically explained, source do define her as a conspiracy theorist. This includes both existing, already cited sources, and additional sources that can be added with relative ease. |
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::::::For example: '{{tq|Conspiracy theorizing: “From the Haymarket riot to the Unibomber, bombs are a liberal tactic,” she tweeted on Wednesday after CNN offices in Manhattan were evacuated when one of the bombs was found there.}}' from This source says she is a conspiracy theorist in direct terms. |
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::::::Your implication seems to be that we must include a simplistic pull-quote. This is both unrealistic, and frankly, seems legalistic. Sources must define her as a conspiracy theorist, and they absolutely do. They ''do not'' have to explicitly say "Coulter is a conspiracy theorist" in exactly those words. This is an encyclopedia, and our job is to summarize sources. |
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::::::Further, your contention this is a BLP issue is, as I already tried to explain, contradicted by your admission that the sources do support this information. If you want to make the case that this is accurate but fails to raise to the level of CATDEF than it is not NOCON, it is merely a content dispute. Per NOCON, this content was already in the article and therefor you lack consensus for a change to the status quo. |
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::::::As I said earlier, I am assuming good faith that you have some actual reason to oppose this beyond CRYBLP. So far, your reasoning seems to be that you personally don't agree with the existing summary of sources. This is insufficient. Perhaps a noticeboard would be a better place. Before that, please consider whether or not it is a productive use of your time to remove information which is supported by sources merely on technical grounds. Nothing about this category is an extraordinary claim based on existing sources. I would also advise you to take a look yourself for additional sources if that's your concern. ] (]) 01:49, 29 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::::Your claim that it doesn't violate BLP is wrong. To put a tag on the article the information the tag implies ''must'' be something we can say in wiki-voice. This hasn't risen to that level. That sources you link do not call her a conspiracy theorist even if they say she is promoting a specific conspiracy. Even if ''some'' sources call her a conspiracy theorist, to put such a contentious label on a person it has to be widely used, else it must be attributed which means it isn't sufficient for a tag. Additionally, CATDEF says this ''must'' be commonly and consistently. You haven't shown that. I think this needs to go to BLPN. ] (]) 02:40, 29 August 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::"Your claim is wrong" is not a compelling argument. It is something we can say in Wikivoice, because per reliable sources she is a conspiracy theorist. Your (apparent) definition of "conspiracy theorist" is too vague to be workable, and also incompatible with both sources and Misplaced Pages's own article on conspiracy theories. As countless reliable sources explain, any conspiracy theory that can be proven is not a "conspiracy theory" it's just a conspiracy. Therefore, all conspiracy theories, including the ones promoted/created/spread by Coulter, by definition include plausible deniability. This doesn't mean they are not conspiracy theories, nor does it mean that people who spread them are not conspiracy theorists just because they don't call themselves that particular term. A person who is notable in part for spreading conspiracy theories is a conspiracy theorist. The disputed category is not a subcat of "category:people who promote conspiracy theorists" because that would be both unworkably euphemistic, and also condescending to readers. ] (]) 03:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC) |
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== Cheating Accusations Made Without Evidence == |
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In a recent CSpan interview, Ms. Coulter accuses Democrats of getting into office by cheating. The problem with her claims is she gives no evidence. If she has the evidence, she should prove it. She can do that with a new book perhaps. Otherwise, she can only be considered slandering the people she referenced. <ref>https://www.c-span.org/video/?537661-4/ann-coulter-campaign-2024</ref>] (]) 01:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC) |
Change the reference of Gus Walz having ADHD to "As a teen, he was diagnosed with nonverbal learning disorder, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and anxiety." Per The Washington Post, Gus Walz melted hearts at the DNC, putting neurodiversity in the spotlight - By Carolyn Y. Johnson, August 22, 2024 at 4:37 p.m. EDT Stephenwmoss (talk) 21:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
In cyber bullying section it says Gus walz has nonverbal autism, which is a condition where an autistic person has not learned to speak (is non verbal). This is incorrect. What he has is a non verbal learning disability, which means a disability affecting learning non verbal skills. This is completely different.
In a recent CSpan interview, Ms. Coulter accuses Democrats of getting into office by cheating. The problem with her claims is she gives no evidence. If she has the evidence, she should prove it. She can do that with a new book perhaps. Otherwise, she can only be considered slandering the people she referenced. 2405:9800:BC30:3719:E980:90D4:D6E3:949E (talk) 01:09, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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Already done by Blainster. –CWenger (^ • @) 19:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Fixed. –CWenger (^ • @) 19:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
