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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2019 ==
==NPOV Project==
'''PLEASE: edit changes you do not like an announce them here and in the history log!!! Do not revert to an older file unless it is a case of clear vandalism!!!'''


{{edit extended-protected|Zionist political violence|answered=yes}}
I am starting a project to make this article conform to the NPOV standards of Misplaced Pages. this comes at the prompting of people within this talk page and simply the fact that it really obviously need to be done. There are rampant assertions by both sides of the argument and conspicuous editorial statements. On a more contraversial not, I do plan to replace "terrorist" if and alternate term where appropriate. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, we can take out cue on to the truth of that statement from the US revolution, the Algerian Revolution, and numerous others through history. --] 07:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article is biased in places because it lacks a factual chronology of events.


For example, it says:
== Mordechai Vanunu ==


"In February 1947, the British announced that they would end the mandate and withdraw from Palestine and they asked the arbitration of the United Nations. After the vote of the Partition Plan for Palestine on 30 November 1947, civil war broke out in Palestine. Jewish and Arab communities fought each other violently in campaigns of attacks, retaliations and counter-retaliations which provoked around 800 deaths after two months."
I changed that sentence because the clause "and they called this a kidnapping" 1. was bad english, 2, looked an attempt to cast doubt on something which was quite clearly, under any definition, a kidnapping and which had been insterted as an afterthought into the sentence as a whole. Either "they" are right (and I think "they" are) in which call it a kidnapping in the article or "they" are wrong in which case leave it out entirely.
:Good point. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


And:


"At the beginning of the civil war, the Jewish militias organized several bombing attacks against civilians and military Arab targets. On 12 December, Irgun placed a car bomb opposite the Damascus Gate, killing 20 people."


But the source cited after the second passage (note 15 -- Karsh 2002) clearly shows that the Palestinian violence came first and that the Zionist violence was a response. Here is a passage from Karsh 2002:
== Arab leadership of the countries surrounding Israel ==


"Violence came to Palestine within hours of the UN vote on partition. In the early hours of 30 November 1947 as Jewish revellers were making their way home after the previous night's celebrations, an ambulance en route to the Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus came under fire. A few hours later a group of Arabs ambushed a Jewish bus bound from the coastal town of Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five of its passengers and wounding several others. They then attacked another bus travelling from Hadera to Jerusalem, killing two more passengers.
You reverted my delete of:


"Meanwhile, in Tel-Aviv's Carmel Market, on the fault line between the Jewish city and what was Arab Jaffa, a Jewish person was murdered. In the country's main gaol, in the northern town of Acre, Arab prisoners attacked Jewish inmates, who barricaded themselves in their cells until the British authorities managed to restore calm. In Haifa, shots were fired at Jews passing through Arab neighbourhoods, while Jewish vehicles were stoned throughout the country.
"However, it should be noted that substantial evidence exists that the Arab leadership of the countries surrounding Israel convinced the Arab population of Israel at the time that when those surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel the local populace should leave temporarily, that the Jews would then be slaughtered and that they would then be allowed to return."


"The next day saw no reduction in violence. Shooting, stoning and rioting continued apace. The consulates of Poland and Sweden, both of which had voted for partition, were attacked. Bombs were thrown into cafes, killing and maiming, molotov cocktails were hurled at shops, a synagogue was set on fire. Scores of young Arabs flooded the offices of the local national committees demanding weapons. To inflame the situation further, the AHC proclaimed a three-day nationwide strike to begin the following day. It enforced the closure of all Arab shops, schools and places of business and organised and incited large Arab crowds to take to the streets to attack Jewish targets.
I just dont see how this is relevant in an article on Israeli Terrorism. Maybe in an atricle on the deficiencies of the arab leadership, but it doesn't point to any actual action by the Arabs - only alleged propaganda. Doesn't seem to objective to me - and its only purpose can be to cloud the issue discussed int he rest of the paragraph.
:The paragraph also describes "forced exile" as part of "Israeli terrorism"; this seems to balance the claim of "forced exile". ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:51, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


"The main such attack took place in Jerusalem on Tuesday 2 December, when a crowd of several hundred Arabs ransacked the new Jewish commercial centre, lying opposite the Old City's walls, looting and burning shops and stabbing and stoning whoever they happened upon. A Hagana platoon that was rushed to the area to protect civilians was peremptorily stopped and disarmed by the British police, with 16 of its members arrested for illegal possession of weapons. Some of the confiscated weapons were later found on killed and captured Arab rioters. . . .
== Incidental killing of civillians ==


"On 4 December, some 120-150 armed Arabs attacked kibbutz Efal, on the outskirts of Tel-Aviv, in the first large-scale attempt to storm a Jewish settlement. Four days later a more audacious assault was launched when hundreds of armed Arabs attacked the Hatikva quarter in south Tel-Aviv. They were followed by scores of women, bags and sacks in hand, eager to ferry off the anticipated spoils. 'The scene was appalling,' recalled one of the Jewish defenders. 'Masses of Arabs were running towards the neighbourhood. Some of them carried torches while others fired on the fly. Behind them we saw flashes of fire from machine guns covering them as they ran amok.' By the time the British troops arrived at the scene, the Arabs had been forced into a hasty retreat, leaving behind some 70 dead." (pp. 28-30)
You reverted my delete of:


http://www.institutobrasilisrael.org/cms/assets/uploads/_BIBLIOTECA/_PDF/o-conflito-palestino-x-israelense/c9eda179ec7d807f21c0113482294bd0.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2XjtdEu1lgkfCPthaR4KjN0_NoxBeCqwIqM85PzSDRf0ewBRSE0RFEFfI
"Opponents of Israel do not recognize a distinction between the admitted deliberate killing of innocent civilians by Arab militant groups and the incidental killing of innocent civilians by Israel in pursuing military action against the militant groups."


The Zionist violence during the civil war follows the initial Palestinian violence after the UN vote, as Karsh explains in the following section on page 31, and in fairness this context should be included. I have seen alt-right types use this article in a way that is arguably anti-Semitic, and they have no understanding of the chronology of events, and this article does not give it to them. ] (]) 22:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
"incidental" is not a nuetral word, especially when it is coupled with the word "deliberate" as itr is here. I think it is more to the point that many people feel that when overwhelming force is used by Israel in built up areas of the Occupied Territories which is certain to cause civilain casualties use of the word "incidental" to dismiss a 100% anticipated outcome is a more than a little disingenuous - and a way off being neutral.
:] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a ] for this alteration ''']''' using the {{tlx|edit extended-protected}} template.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] ] ] 15:53, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
:While I could see an argument if the word there were "accidental", I'm not sure why "incidental" isn't neutral; the civilians aren't targetted, even if you think that casualties are inevitable. And the Israeli counter-argument, of course, is that targetted force (not overwhelming force) is used, and that the Palestinian militants hide in built up areas precisely to incur civilian casualities. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:55, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:: Of course the Palestinian counter agruement would be that you have included the word "innocent" in the phrase "deliberate killing of innocent civilians " - when these are in fact invaders. Clearly this is OTT - but incidnetal makes it sound like the killings are not intended - when clearly they are. They may not the the prime motivation but it is very clear from the outset that they will happen.


== Did Zionism end in 1940 ==
:::By suggesting that civilians are not "innocent", you make the generally discredited claim that has been proposed by groups like Hamas that a 1 year old child in Tel Aviv is not an "innocent" civilian because it is an "invader". As for "intended", if one is hoping for 0 civilian deaths (as the Israelis clearly do, if for no other reason than bad P.R.), and there are more deaths than that, then clearly the deaths are not "intended", even if you argue they could be "predicted". ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 16:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


{{Quote frame| There have not been any acts of Zionist political violence since the time of the Israeli War of Independence in 1948, after which the Lehi was disbanded.}}
::::You could, of course, remove both the words "deliberate" and "incidental" and not change the primary meaning of the sentance. ] 17:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can I get a source on that?] (]) 00:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)


: Of course there is no source because the statement is complete bullshit. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 04:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
:: I agree Guettarda - I would propose the much less emotive:


:: Would you join me in correcting it and by consequence the whole article? <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:56, 17 March 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:: "Opponents of Israel do not recognize a distinction between the killing of civilians by Arab militant groups and the killing of civilians by Israel in pursuing military action against the militant groups."


::: the point IMO is that the article seems to have been written in the context of the Zionist program to establish a state of Israel. This program came to fruition in 1948 and thenceforth the need for active promotion of a Jewish state disappeared, together with the rationale of 'Zionist' terrorist groups. At a possibly later date, someone has added the assertion to the lead that 'Zionist terrorism' continues to the present day, without providing any detail in the article.
:: What do you think?


:::The truth appears to be that a minority of Jewish settlers in the disputed West Bank/Judea and Samaria carry out sporadic acts of violence and vandalism against local Arab targets - as do the Arabs against Jewish targets. It seems overblown to describe this as Zionist terrorism unless Arab attacks are described as antisemitic terrorism.
:::The killing of civilians by Arab groups is deliberate. They walk into a disco full of kids and blow themselves up. The other is not deliberate. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 21:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


:::The remedy IMO is to remove references to post-1948 from this article, and place any encyclopedic material in an article on inter-communal disturbances in Israel post-1948, which may already exist. There are plenty of examples to go on. ] (]) 15:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
::::Granted, this page should not exist because the title is POV/politically motivated (the contents is another matter, but I can't agree with the name). It's unreasonable to equate the killing of Israeli civilians by Palestinian suicide bombers with the killing of Palestinians by the IDF. I am in no position to judge the motives behind the killing of Palestinians by individuals within the IDF (so I am not in a position to determine whether these killings are "incidental" or "deliberate"). I dislike the use of the word "incidental" because it trivialises the deaths, and no death is trivial. There is no such thing as "collateral damage" or "friendly fire". "Incidental killing" might be appropriate for by-catch in a fishing fleet, but not for humans (not even for dolphins in a tuna net).
::::My aim was simply to point out that the removal of both words did not change the meaning of the sentance. ''Of course'' the killing of Israelis by Palestinian suicide bombers is deliberate. I ''sincerely hope'' that the killings of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army are terrible tragic mistakes. But introducing the word "incidental" not only requires that we know something about the motivation of individual commanders and soldiers in the field, it also cheapens many tragic losses of life. Try interpreting this as human beings. Every killing is a terrible tragedy, even that of a mass murderer. Start there, extrapolate up to the first innocent death, and retch in horror at what the "good" people (''whatever'' side you support) are involved in. ] 22:34, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


== Cave of the patriarchs massacre ==
:: "The killing of civilians by Arab groups is deliberate. They walk into a disco full of kids and blow themselves up. The other is not deliberate. Jayjg (talk) 21:49, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)"


This page seems to be missing many entries. For example the cave of the patriarchs massacre is not here ] (]) 10:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
:: Says you. You fire rockets from a helecopter gunship into a building full of people - that's just as deliberate.

:::Um, I don't fire rockets at anyone. I think you need to get some perspective here. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:10, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:Guettarda - I share your concern over "incidental" - makes it all sound like an accident. While I agree that there is a moral difference I'm not sure that it is down to an atricle like to try to shade this by its use of language.


:: I'm sory - I'm from the UK - we tend to regard use of the word "one" as being a bit of an afectation, But if you prefer "when one shoots rockets...". Appologies _if_ you misunderstood.

:::Oh, I see; I view the usage as essential for clarity. Apology accepted _if_ that was your true original intent. Now what was your point? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:15, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:<G> - I think we understand each other. It really wasn't my intention to target you personally. UK usage <> US usage of English unfortunately. Clearly there is a moral difference between a bunch of murderers blowing up kids to make a point and people who kill kids (even knowingly) whilst on some other purpose. BUT that doesn't really matter to the kids (of either faith) does it?

:"Opponents of Israel do not recognize a distinction between the killing of civilians by Arab militant groups and the killing of civilians by Israel in pursuing military action against the militant groups."

:I really do think this is neutral - no slant to either side. More importantly it doesn't have either you or I passing moral judgement on the basis of a guess as to someone's motives.

::When a child is hit by a car, it doesn't really matter to that child either. Yet that is not the same thing as deliberately blowing him up with a bomb. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

::Actually that line might be a bit ''too'' neutral. The point of the statement is to say that, by calling it terrorism, many seek to make the suicide bombings ''morally equivalent'' with the killings by the IDF. In an article with the title "Israeli terrorism" (surely there ''must'' be a more neutral title for this?) people feel a need to point out that there is a difference. Both groups are acting unacceptably - killing is never acceptable - but there is a difference. ''Deliberate'' might actually belong there - something to say that, by and large, the Palestinian suicide bombers are acting differently from ''either'' the IDF attacking militants ''or'' Palestinian militants attacking IDF checkpoints. When Hamas attacks an IDF checkpoint in Gaza it's tragic, but it's war. When the IDF bombs a Hamas training ground, likewise. When the IDF assassinates a Hamas leader in a public place and kills by-standers, that's beyond tragic, it's terribly wrong. But when a Hamas suicide bomber blows himself up at a bus stop or a disco in Israel, that's beyond despicable. Neither the IDF killing of civilians, nor the Hamas killing of civilians are acceptable, but when the civilians are killed ''deliberately'', it's '''far''' worse. There is no comparison.
::Nonetheless, the killing of Palestinian civilians is not "incidental" either. It's tragic, and it's all the more tragic because the western press ignores it...we tacitly agree that Palestinian life is worth less than Israeli life (and Israeli life is worth less than American or British life, of course).
::I think I should leave this discussion now. I have said too much. As the grandson of a Nazi I have less right than the average person to criticise Israel. ] 00:56, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:::You make a number of good points. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"When Hamas attacks an IDF checkpoint in Gaza it's tragic, but it's war. When the IDF bombs a Hamas training ground, likewise. When the IDF assassinates a Hamas leader in a public place and kills by-standers, that's beyond tragic, it's terribly wrong. But when a Hamas suicide bomber blows himself up at a bus stop or a disco in Israel, that's beyond despicable. "

Problem here is that we are engaging in some obscene calculus of evil here - which is exactly what thet sentence invites. I wont, but I could, run a justification of the Palestinian side that would tear at your heart. Nop one is right here - none of the actions are those of reasonable people. It's part of the reason why I dislike the sentence as is - it's value laden.

::If we can't agree that walking into a disco full of kids and blowing yourself up is an act which is morally wrong on a scale not approached by a shootout between the IDF and Hamas, then I don't see where we can come to a compromise here. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::: You have to understand that it is not morally wrong to Islamists to kill innocents and children. The end justifies the means. Their morals come from the pit of hell. ] 11:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

rossnixon, erhm .. ookay.
the numbers of dead civilians is clearly higher on the palestinian camp than it is the israeli one, 4 times higher at last count. for anyone to argue that bombing an apartment complex filled to the brim with families is somehow more incidental and humane than a palestinian blowing up a disco is mindless stupidity. there is absolutely no difference between the two. well actually, there is a difference; the israelis have fine tuned their art with wmds, literally. while the palestinians are left to scratch iron with egyptian smuggled kalashnikovs and stones, really sharp ones too. the suggestion that the palestinian operations are more barbaric and primordial is sheer inanity. killing is killing, the israeli argument that they dont look their victims in the eye while reducing them to pink mist is somehow more humanitarian is purely undergraduate.
frantz fanon

:The ] forbids the use of any civilian as a shield. (''Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War'', Aug. 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3516, 75 U.N.T.S. 287, art. 28), therefore your blame is misapplied. Your concerns may come from a good heart but the terrorists count on "humanitarians" such as you, because for some reason you fail to see the difference between an arsonist and a firefighter. Let's just hope when you learn to see it, it won't be too late.
:''"Restricting the freedom of movement of entire communities is immoral. Refraining from these restrictions when there is unequivocal proof that this will lead to the murder of innocents is worse, because movement restricted can later be granted, while dead will never live again. Demolishing the homes of civilians merely because a family member has committed a crime is immoral. If, however,... potential suicide murderers... will refrain from killing out of fear that their mothers will become homeless, it would be immoral to leave the Palestinian mothers untouched in their homes while Israeli children die on their school buses. Accidentally killing noncombatants in the cross fire of battles being fought in the middle of cities is immoral, unless... refraining from fighting in the Palestinian cities inevitably means the Palestinians will use the safe havens of their cities to plan, prepare and launch ever more murderous attacks on Jewish noncombatants. These concrete examples and others like them demonstrate the moral considerations that Israelis... have been dealing with since the Palestinans proudly decided to use suicide murder as their primary weapon."'' ("Right to Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's Wars", p.260) ]&larr;]&larr;] 08:50, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Honest Reporting ==

Just because of the name of the link - needs a description of what it is. (ie not "honest (implying impartial) reporting" but very significantly biased.
:In your view. And your intepretation of the name of the site does not match its own. Regardless, putting a POV description on a site is also bias. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:56, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

::Yet you feelo comfortable with - "Israeli Left-wing human rights organization: Human rights in Israel and the territories" - why is that different? Honest Reporting shoudl at leasty have inverted commas to show it's a name and not a wikipedia endorced description.

:::And you seem comfortable with "Zionist Terrorism" and "Palestine: the assault on health and other war crimes". Honest Reporting is the name of the group; does Misplaced Pages endorse these other descriptions? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 16:59, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:: Actuaslly I'm not. The "assault on health" article (with the buyline from the BMJ) looks to point to a broken link. The "Zionist Terrorism" link is clearly slanted by POV but could probably do with a buyline - as many of the other links have.

:: Would it be a good idea to alphabetise the list?

:: Incidentally I am surprised that your responce to my "you seem happy with" comment is couched in the form of a comment on what I am happy with.

:: I am not the admin here. You are. You presumably represent Misplaced Pages editorial policy. I do not. Lets focus on the article - I appologise unreservedly if my comment was taken as a personal remark - I was refering to you in your official capacity and should have made this clear.

:::I'm just an editor like any other, though I do my best to ensure that Misplaced Pages policy is met. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 21:52, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:Thanks - thought that would seem slightly disingenuous given the contexct of your earlier rebuke.
::Not sure what you're getting at. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
:So - getting abck to the labels - do you honestly feel it is apporiate for a link labeled "Honest Reporting" to point to a lobbying site without comment?
::It's a media watchdog, not a "lobbying site". Given that other sites appear to have labels, I'm sure some sort of reasonable label could be worked out. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:11, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

: Thanks - I have used the description of the site from their own home page. This seem reasonable to you?

::It didn't tell you anything about the site; I've used "Pro-Israel media watchdog" instead. What do you think? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:20, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Good call - now "zionist terrorism" - do we want to change that too? I'm really not comfotable with it either.

:Actually, on reflection, I removed the link altogether, and the next one as well. They are media watchdog sites, not specifically on the topic of this article. If they have specific sub-pages on them dealing with the topic on this page, those subpages can be linked. Regarding the "Zionist terrorism" link, it's a poor quality propaganda site which hasn't been updated in months. I think you should just delete it. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 14:58, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

== NPOV - When is a terrorist?... ==

Contrast the start of the article on Israeli Terrorism:

"This article is about militant actions, which critics have termed terrorist, against Palestinians and others, by Jewish groups within the British Mandate of Palestine, and later, by Israelis. "

with that on Palestinian Terrorism:

"The term Palestinian terrorism is commonly used for terrorist acts committed by Palestinian citizens and Palestinian organizations against Israeli Jews, and occasionally against nationals of other countries."

Why is one "Militant Actions" only called terrorism by critics - whilst the other is "commonly used" seemingly by all and sundry for "terrorist acts"?

If we're trying to be a NPOV encyclopedia then this seem more than a little baised to me. Am I the only one who sees a difference in nuance here?

:I suspect the difference has to do with deliberate targetting of civilians. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:: But I notice that the wikipedia definition of terrorism specifically includes: "The targets of terrorist acts can be government officials, military personnel, people serving the interests of governments, or civilians".

:: So I'd very much like to change this to reflect some internal consistency. Seems to me that we're imposing a bogus POV that "terrorism only means deliberate killing civillians" here. And we should be internally consistent please.

:::The Misplaced Pages terrorism article specifically states "It can also more specifically mean the calculated or threatened use of violence against civilian targets exclusively." ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 17:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:: Since the actions at Deir Yassin and those of Irgun both fall within the ambit of both the more specific and more general definition of terrorism (being deliberately targeted against civillians) are you happy that we now change the opening sentence to the more neutral:

:: "This article is about terrorist acts against Palestinians and others, by Jewish groups within the British Mandate of Palestine, and later, by Israelis."

:: Since we have agreed that acts described in the article are clearly terrorism according to both definitions.

Hi 62.252.0.9, I reverted your edit because, looking through the history, I see this intro has been stable for quite some time, meaning it has been agreed by a number of editors (with different POVs), and it's therefore best not to change it without reaching consensus on the talk page. On the whole, Misplaced Pages articles try not to make direct reference to the word "terrorism", and especially not in the introduction: usually the view is attributed to someone, as in "a terrorist act according to xxx." The exception would be where there was no ambiguity e.g. the clear and deliberate targeting of civilians. I see you've mentioned the Misplaced Pages definition of terrorism. We're not supposed to use Misplaced Pages articles as sources, simply because they might change at any minute. It's best to look elsewhere for definitions of terrorism e.g. the UN. Hope this helps. ] 21:37, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

:: Sorry - looks like out edits overlappede - feel free to "revert" or chip in with an opinion. My appologies here.

:: www.dictionary.com

ter•ror•ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n.

<blockquote>The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.</blockquote>

:No disctinction between civillians and military targets. Clearly we are talking about terrorism here. (posted by 62.252.0.9)


Here's the definition I use, because it was worked out by two academics over many years and is used by the UN; it also distinguishes between the direct targets (message generators) and the main targets (the audience), which I see as a vital component of any act we might call "terrorist":

<blockquote>Terrorism is an anxiety inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by clandestine individual, group or state actors for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby &mdash; in contrast to assassination &mdash; the direct targets are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from the target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion or propaganda is primarily sought. (Schmid & Jongman, ''Political Terrorism'', 1988) ] 21:54, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC) </blockquote>

There are 100 definitions of terrorism; I prefer narrower ones, the broader ones tend to be meaningless. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 21:56, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:This one's quite a good one, though, and is being increasingly used by academics and the United Nations. It rules out acts committed by governments, unless there's a clandestine aspect; and it has the importance element of publicity-seeking in it, where the actual victims are not the intended victims, but the audience is. ] 22:01, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

::Actually, I was responding more to the dictionary.com version. Yours is excellent. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 22:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nonetheless, the point is that the terrorist could be targetting a strictly military turget and would still be titled as terrorism in the mainstream. I've always approached the definition of terrorism as Jayjg does (targetting of civilians), but I'm not ''entirely'' sure to what extent that counts as original reserach on my/our part. Intuitively, it sounds correct. ] 22:07, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, as in Ireland with the IRA attacking British soldiers. To use a definition that involved only the targeting of civilians would mean those IRA acts would have to be called something else. Now, you might want to call them something else for other reasons, but that shouldn't be forced on you by a definition. The key, in my view, is the direct target/main target distinction, with victims as message generators, regardless of whether the target population is civilian or military; plus the element of clandestinism if that's a word. ] 22:16, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

:: So - getting back to thye article - do any of us believe that the actions of Irgun pre 1948 do not consitiute "terrorism"?

:: As such is the weasel phrase "which critics have termed terrorist" justified in the opening to the article?

:: All of us - critics or not - would seem to agree that these actrions are terrorist. No?

:::The issue is not with the pre-1948 actions, but with the post-1948 actions. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

: See the post earlier about this should not become an Arab / Israeli debating forum. Do you think we should split it into two articles?

::Not sure what you mean about "debating forum". I think the issue is with the post 1948 actions, not the pre-1948 actions, which (from a cursory glance) are clearly terrorism. I think it would be better to rename this Zionist terrorism, and delete the post 1948 stuff. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 00:17, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

: In the archive of this debate page there is a section "This is not a debate forum!" - makes some gfood points.

: But to use that weasel phrase because some of the article does not comply with your "narrow" definition of terrorism whislt some parts of it clearly do I would venture to sugest is a decision you need to consider in the light of NPOV.

: I am a bit concerned however that you seem to be controlling edits to a page on the basis of a "cursory glance" - can I ask you to read the whole page carefully please before reverting changes?

::What exactly are you proposing, Anon? Also, do you mind signing your comment with anything identifiable (such as the letter "A") ? Jayjg makes a perfectly valid historical observation. Since the State of Israel did not exist pre-1948, it should be titled Zionist not Israeli terrorism.

::Slim, the question is not whether an organization such as the IRA is called terrorist, but I was looking at it more situationally, as per the actual act. Should bombing of a British military outpost ''viz.'' a train station be considered terroist act? Arguably, yes, but I think myself and Jayjg, at the very least, are arguing is that it isn't the same yes. ] 01:53, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

: What I am proposing is that we drop the phrase "which critics have termed terrorist" from the opening sentence. I actually agree that this would be better as two atricles. "Zionist terrorism" and "Israeli military actions involving civillians" - but if we keep it as one article inclusion of that phrase (which I would guess was inserted as an attempt cast doubt on whether the article about Israeli Terrorism actually talks about terrorism) does not seem appropriate since we all seem to agree that (at least in good part) we are definitely talking about what all people (critics or no) would call terrorism.

And you still didn't sign your comment, tsk tsk tsk. Well, we have to follow what the critical scholarship as well as the mainstream has to say on this or that, whether we agree with it or not (and, this article and general topic aside, I, myself, disagree with much of what they do say -- as uncritical and poor scholarship). I'm pleased you agree with Jayjg's proposal, which I support, for splitting the article. I don't find anything particularly problematic with the titles you suggest for the two articles, though I do think there is an article/s which already discuss the post-1948 period on that front. I'm going to drop Luke a note, I think this discussion can benefit from his participation. ] 09:10, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why don't you get yourself a login, so we can distinguish you from all the other people using that ] ] IP address? It's easy, quick, and free. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

El C asked for my comment on this, and I generally concur with what's discussed above. Elements of violence by Israel tend not to have all or any of the characteristics commonly associated with terrorism. I think the biggest shortcoming of the article is that it doesn't cover the controversy and political evolution of the term "Israeli terrorism"; if the article is not about this, this list should be at "Israeli military actions involving civillians" as suggested above. I agree that pre-1948 violence should be under "Zionist terrorism". ] ] 07:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:So are we coming to a consensus here? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 17:40, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that we are. ] 15:07, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Should there not be some mention of post-statehood terrorist groups not related to the Israeli state? Such as http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/kkc.html , for example. The "pre-statehood" and "state terrorism" sections give the impression the pre-statehood terrorists morphed into the state of israel, which isn't the case. Or, if this article is splitting into "Zionist terrorism" and "Israeli military actions involving civilians" (not sure if I understand the above consensus entirely), more modern Zionist groups should be included in the former.

Furthermore, "opponents of Israel do not recognize a distinction between the admitted deliberate killing of innocent civilians by Arab militant groups and the incidental killing of innocent civilians by Israel in pursuing military action against the militant groups." is still certainly not NPOV in any way. The entire sentence drips with disdain for "opponents of Israel", whether unintentionally or not. I'm an opponent of Israel (for the most part), and I certainly recognize a distinction and I expect many if not most "opponents of Israel" recognize at least some distinction. Condemning both as evil acts in their own way is not refusing to recognize a distinction. At least insert a "some" at the start of the sentence, or better yet, scrap the sentence altogether; I don't think it's even necessary at that point. --] 13:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Mossad Operations ==
I am removing the modifier "alleged" wrt to Mossad operations as Mossad openly admits (and boasts about) its capture of so-called opponents of Israel such as Vanunu. Moreover, I am removing the modifier "militant" as Vanunu is again not a militant. Also, you don't need to be an "Opponent of Israel" to consider the kidnapping of Vanunu as a kidnapping.

:<s>I am reverting your changes, Anon, and will continue to do so until you provide a verifiable source for the passage's claim that what is depicted as an allegation is an historical fact.</s> ] 08:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:: It's not difficult to check the ] article. These are not "allegations", but well-known facts. - ] 08:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:::<s>I am not disputing nor commenting on that, I just think that such ''open boasting'' can and should be sourced. No?</s> ] 09:04, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:::: How's this for a start? . - ] 09:08, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
::::: ""we managed to track him down, establish contact with him, and bring him to Israel in the end," a former top Mossad official who was involved in Mordechai Vanunu's capture, recalled this week... After they flew to Rome, and entered the apartment, two Mossad agents pounced on Vanunu, tied his hands, and injected him with a drug. He was then brought back to Israel by boat."

::::::<s>It's fine, for a start, I suppose, except the link does not work, and I don't know if that qualifies as boasting, which was my contention &ndash; not your abovecited passage whose contents I was already familliar with.</s> ] 09:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

::::::: "Boasting" isn't mentioned in the article, fortunately, so we don't need to argue the word's semantics. The Haaretz link works for me, oddly; it's from the bottom of the ] article. - ] 09:50, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oh! That's right. I mistook the comment on talk with the edit made in the article. Sorry about that. Of course, I have no intention of arguing the semantics now that I realize it was limited to talk. Yes, that works for me, too, except the link dosen't seem to work correctly at the moment. ] 10:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC) <small>Correction: Hmm, it does works in IE for me but not FF. Strange. ] 10:23, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:: And incidentally, the same applies for most of the supposed "allegations" in this article, which reeks of POV. - ] 08:49, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

::: Perhaps, I have yet to read it except for one section, so I cannot comment on that either. ] 09:04, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:::: I believe I've fixed the worst of them now. - ] 09:50, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

::::: I'll see if I can review your changes soon (but probably it would be best if I read the article beforehand). ] 10:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==To an earlier vandal==

To whoever deliberately broke all the massacre links in this article and then labelled them all "alleged" - congratulations. What a great way to make it harder for people to fact-check your whitewashing efforts. - ] 09:08, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:From the history it looks like it was done by an anonymous editor 4 months ago. It looks like they were trying to "NPOV" things, including descriptions, not deliberately break links. In any event, they're probably long gone, and I doubt they'll ever read this. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 19:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

==To the hopeless moron removing my edits==

Well done on the removal of my correction to the spelling of 'Miscellaneous'. Was this an affront to your so-called 'NPOV' policy?
And the re-addition of a biased, pointless, one-sided, year-old Amnesty report which has no relation to the topic of the article? That was desperately needed for 'NPOV', right?
So, are you biased or just moronic?

: Well done for fixing the spelling of "Miscellaneous" - it appears to be the first time any of your edits have improved an article. I can only hope this marks the start of a trend. - ] 18:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:: I'm waiting to see a single valid reason for that amnesty link to be there, considering it is a) irrelevant to the article, b) out of date (by a year), c) biased, and d) far from helping the NPOV rule, actually breaches it. Have you got a reason or are you just being biased?

::: Its relevance to the article is obvious: it describes some of the principal instances of practices which are classified by others as Israeli terrorism. The idea that it's "out of date" is ridiculous; it's a record of what has happened (and, incidentally, where are you getting the 2004 date from.) Amnesty International is remarkably NPOV, but even if it weren't this would not be a reason to remove the link. - ] 20:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::: As far as I can see it does not describe acts of terrorism except those committed by palestinians. It actually mainly focuses on building destruction which it would take a ridiculous stretch to call an act of terrorism. In fact, it is essentially a counter-terrorist activity. It also talks about the palestinian economy and the security barrier, neither of which have any relevance to 'Israeli terrorism'. So the article is essentially unrelated to the topic. It is out-of-date as it describes the situation at the time, not taking in to account anything since. It is a mere commentary on the situation, not a record as you seem to think. I'm getting the 2004 date from the fact that if you check, the article was last updated in 'May 2004'. Amnesty International is not remarkably NPOV. If you would note the recent fracas surrounding its designation of Guantanamo Bay as a 'gulag of our time', something which was decidedly POV and drew harsh criticism from the US government and later had to be qualified by Amnesty. Also, many supporters of Israel frequently criticise Amnesty for pursuing a one-sided, politically motivated, anti-Israel campaign and agenda, and Amnesty is widely criticised as being biased by many on the conservative side of politics, who deem its activities and reports to have an inherent left-liberal bias as well as Anti-US and Anti-Israel sentiment. You would acknowledge it as 'remarkably NPOV' because it agrees with you in its attitudes and biases.

==Innaccurate, tangent ridden, POV Article==

There are huge problems with this article. "Israeli terrorism" is ill defined and strays from the orthodox definitions of terrorism into bizzare areas. Who defines specific actions as terrorism? There needs to be sources of the people who define it as so. There also needs to be comparisons between what is acceptable by country and what these detractors see as unacceptable for Israel. Lets compare U.S. anti terrorist actions vs Israeli actions.

Some of the actions that are defined as terrorism are carried out
without any problem by American forces.

For example, targetted killings of terrorists by predator drones
Yet, there is no such article as American terrorism in wikipedia even
though the tactics are identical to targetted killings of
Palestinian terrorists. Probably because both parties are engaged in urban warfare to root out terrorist insurgents. Yet, Israel is singled out. This needs to be pointed out and who terms Israeli actions as terrorism identified.

*This article contains pre-Independence operations by Zionist paramilitary organizations (none of which can be termed as Israeli terrorism, as there was no Israel at the time). They need to be removed from this article, as they are already mentioned in other articles and have no relevance to the title.

*Then there is the whole tangent about Mordechai Vanunu. How controversial acts by different Israeli governments, such as arrest of traitors on foreign soil, or actions against combatants in foreign wars, can be termed terrorism is beyond me. This is blatantly reaching beyond the name of article and should be erased. It has no relevence to the article.

*If the arrest of a traitor is terrorism, why not the arrest of Adolph Eichmann, a law abiding citizen of Argentina?

*This article lists the bombing of the UN compound during war as terrorism (defined as a mistake when America bombed 2 weddings in Afghanistan). Who defines this as terrorism? If they are merely incidents, why are they mentioned in this article? Who identifies it as terrorism? Sources please.

*the assassination attempts on terror chiefs such as Mashaal and Shiek Yassin is defined as terrorism by this article(acions which are carried out every day in America's War on Terror). Who defines these actions as terrorism? Provide sources please.

*Even the ever present footnote in history, Sabra and Shatila debacle, ''not even committed by Israelis'', is defined as terrorism. S&S should be erased as a tangent which has nothing to do with Israel. It's primarily a Lebanese problem, a footnote in history of a war where hundreds of thousands of people died, where Lebanese militias massacred each other's supporters everyday. Not relevent.

Finally, acts that in Iraq are run of the mill "US action in Fallujah to root out terrorists" , become terrorism when carried out by Israel to stop rocket attacks and infiltration by
terrorists. This should be qualified or removed from the article unless sources are provided which specifically identify who is calling a military operation terrorism.

There are a couple of actual actions that can be described as terrorism, but not much. The Lavon affair can probably be listed, and maybe Qibya can be listed because they arguably fall under a general range of classical terrorism. Although Qibya really has no political message that it is trying to teach Jordan.

I don't know if population transfer can strictly be defined as
terrorism. In other words. It needs a rewrite. On actions that editors can argue one way or another, I leave to discussion. ] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: There is no "orthodox definition" of terrorism. Whose definition do you have in mind?

I have in mind this definition: the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the US, see ]; I'm surprised a ] hasn't been written yet, but that gap is no criticism of this article. Your point about pre-1948 organizations argues for renaming this ].

That makes no sense. Zionist Organizations functioned '''before''' Israel's declaration of Independence. These are actions by the Israeli state vs actions by independent Zionist organizations. You can't have it both ways, as they are not the same. You need two articles, one on alleged Zionist terrorism and one on alleged Israeli terrorism. Otherwise this article has tangents up the wazoo.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sabra and Shatila is certainly relevant - just ask the Kahan Commission!

The Kahan commission did not find Israel responsible. It has nothing to do with the fact that Lebanese Christian militiamen massacred Palestinians after Palestinians assasinated their leader. This is an act of revenge during a civil war which as little to do with Israel. The IDF did not order the Phalangists to kill Palestinians, hence it is irrelevent.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Kidnappings and assassinations (and btw, Vanunu was a hero, not a traitor) are quite frequently described as terrorism (eg in regard to Vanunu:).

Anyways, detractors of Israel call that guy a hero, Israelis and most Jews call him a traitor. He was brought to justice just like Eichmann was brought to justice. You can't pick and choose these definitions.
You do know that by linking to Communist websites it doesn't help the credibility of this definition at all. This is a politically charged piece of propaganda, but not a credible source.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Who defines Qana as terrorism? A quick Google reveals , , . The UN concluded that this bombing was unlikely to be a mistake (see that article.) - ] 01:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

These are all anti Israeli websites who provide no sources for their assumptions. You are ruining your own position by linking to communist and Islamist websites. If you can provide legitimate sources that prove a conspiracy to bomb a UN compound, you got yourself a clear case, if all you have are those propoganda websites, that's poor research, and dubiously citable.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Another case where targeted assassinations are defined as terrorism: ] lists the assassination of Rehavam Zeevi. - ] 01:30, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Assassinating a politician by a known terrorist group is the same as assassinating a civilian. What makes it a terrorist act is that the group who perpetrated it is terrorist. Assassinating terrorist masterminds like Yassin is a military operation. Yassin was in a wheelchair since age 12, when a sporting accident left him paralyzed. being wheelchair-bound never hampered Yassin's ability to orchestrate unprecedented terror - he founded Hamas in 1987 and proved perfectly capable of building the organization to its current strength from a sitting position. He was the leader of a terrorist organization.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Assassination of Ahmad Yassin termed "terrorism": . - ] 01:34, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's termed terrorism as by Hamas. Those are Hamas newsletters. Think about that.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


: PS: I moved the article, pending its possible splitting (as Guy has suggested), to the title that better reflects its current contents: ]. - ] 01:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Operation Days of Penitence (from context): ,

Ok, this can be cited.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

. - ] 01:47, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This can be cited too.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Collateral damage": . - ] 01:49, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Who is the Palestine Monitor affiliated with?
It should also be cited.

] 02:24, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Mustafaa, it's not enough just to find some website calling something terrorism; I can find any number of websites describing all sorts of things as "terrorism". For example ] or ] . Rhetoric is thrown about all the time by partisans and propagandists merely to score points; what is first needed is credible and citable sources, not just anyone saying anything. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 02:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:: Very nearly the only use of the word "terrorism" is for such rhetoric; the term is hopelessly subject to POV, and no universally accepted definition exists. I'm therefore not sure what you mean by "credible and citable sources", but I imagine the Turkish PM and PNA official statements qualify. - ] 02:31, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They are some of the few statements that are.

] 02:38, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Actually, "terrorism" has a fairly narrow and well-defined meaning, it's just that the word is often abused by propagandists who have attempted to hijack the term precisely for the purpose of obfuscation. As for the cites provided, if that's the level of citability we're demanding, then I suppose anything that the Israeli government or Israeli PM calls "terrorist" should be added in a list of terrorist acts somewhere. I guess they'll do for now if they're cited. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 02:42, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: The latter is already the case, from what I can see. Why else is an act like the assassination of Rehavam Zeevi termed "terrorist"? - ] 02:44, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I don't know if that is a general case or an isolated item. In any event, one thing distinguishing Zeevi was that he was a democratically elected government official. You might want to consider who killed him as well. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 04:05, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Because it is an action by a terrorist organization. I think we should take a look at the title again. Zionist terrorism cannot cover Israeli actions and Israeli actions cannot cover Zionist organization actions. The article needs to be split up.
] 02:47, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is an absurd argument. The Al-Qaeda bombers' trip to the strip joint in Nevada was also "an action by a terrorist organization"; that doesn't make it terrorism. As for splitting this, if you want, go ahead - though, obviously, linking between the two articles. By your proposed definition "the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature", Qibya, population transfer, and the Lavon Affair certainly qualify. Sabra and Shatila also qualifies, the only dispute being the degree of Israeli complicity. The attack on Khaled Meshaal doesn't fit that definition (nor does the kidnapping of Vanunu), but the attack on Ahmad Yasin does: at least nine other people died. Whether the Qana Massacre was deliberate is disputed (see that article), so it should go in with a proviso. - ] 02:56, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Then I should reiterate. Violent action by a terrorist organization is what qualified it as a terrorist act. This was clearly planned out in advance with five or more members acting in unison to assasinate a political leader. Shiek Yassin was a terrorist mastermind who orchestrated attacks against civilians. He can be mentioned mainly because of the mainstream sources citing that a Turkish PM called it terrorism, but it depends on how you will word the sentence, because the guy is still a terrorist. I agree mostly with your other statements. I agree that by my definition, population transfer does qualify, as the specific instances are of civilians who were coerced into leaving their homes, but I do not agree that the S&S massacre deserves any mention whatsoever. It does not qualify as a direct Israeli action; it is incredulous to hold Israel responsible for direct actions of enraged Christian militiamen.

] 03:23, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: The Kahan Commission held several Israeli leaders indirectly responsible. Argue with them. --] 16:48, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Kahan commission concluded that direct responsibility rested with the Jemayel Phalangists led by Fadi Frem. '''They committed the act'''. '''Israel did not commit the act'''. If we are talking about direct actions by states, this does not fit into it. Whatever the Kahan commission found, it did not find Israel culpable, but a couple of ministers guilty of negligence. Unless you have an article entitled "State sponsored negligence", this should have no mention in an article on alleged Israeli state terrorism.

] 00:20, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I am the author of the above passages that Guy cites, and I fail to see what it proves (aside from Zero's comment directly above, that it "held several Israeli leaders indirectly responsible.") I, myself, don't think it boils down to mere negligence/inattention, no matter what the Commission members may or may not think, or say, then or today. The historical record is far from limited to their account. ] 10:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: Indeed. Guy, you do not deny that Sabra and Shatila is a case of terrorism; you simply deny that Israel bears any responsibility. However, the Kahan Commission - - both hold Ariel Sharon responsible, and Israel ordered these people in to begin with. It belongs right here. - ] 22:11, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Kahan commission was not a court of law, and Mr. Kahan himself has stated, after hearing about the ridiculous kangaroo case against Sharon, that he regrets that his opinion was used to justify his demonization. I am tired of this nonsense being used to blame Israel as a whole when the verdict said nothing on the matter other than negligence. The Phalangists are responsible, Israel is not.

] 00:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: That's your POV, and should be mentioned. It should not, however, be presented as fact. - ] 00:47, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From Kahan commisssion:

"In the course of the investigation, not a few contradictions came out regarding various facts about which we had heard testimony. In those cases where the contradictions referred to facts important for establishing findings and drawing subsequent conclusions, we shall decide between the variant versions in accordance with the usual criteria in judicial and quasi-judicial tribunals. '''Our procedures are not those of a criminal court;''' and therefore the criterion of criminal courts that stipulates that in order to convict someone his guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, does not apply in this case. Nevertheless, since we are aware that our findings and conclusions are liable to be of significant influence from a social and ethical standpoint, and to harm also in other ways persons involved in our deliberations, no finding of significant harm was established with regard to any one of those to whom notices were sent, unless convincing evidence on which to base such a finding was found, and we shall not be satisfied with evidence that leaves room for real doubt. We shall not pretend to find a solution to all the contradictions in testimony."

] 10:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Honestly, I find that passage rather immaterial to your claims of involvement or lack thereof. And viewing the Commission as a neutral source should probably be supplanted, or at least supplumented, with the pertinent historiography. ] 10:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Noting that I havne't really read this article, I'm not certain that's correct, Mustafaa. Sabra and Shatila was a case of ''Israeli'' State Terrorism, as opposed to pre-statehood ''Zionist'' terrorism. (following Western academia's conventions, which I won't comment on). ] 22:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::Ah, sorry. The article only just got split, and I put this comment on the wrong talk page. But I'm glad you agree that it belongs in the ''Israeli'' State Terrorism article. - ] 22:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::So, it's finally split. It seems as if it has been many months &mdash;and it has been&mdash; since I proposed that (of course, I just proposed it and did nothing &ndash; or maybe it was Jay who proposed it, I can't remember). Yes, I agree. And I am the sole author of the ], to boot. (though expanding it beyond what I have there currently, is really the tricky part) ] 22:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Intro==
Mustaafa, please don't just revert my edits. You have a habit of doing that to me, and I find it uncollegial. In an article about Zionist terrorism (however defined), that's what should be discussed. In placing a reference to Israeli terrorism (however defined) in the intro, you're attempting to link the two issues in a way that isn't argued for, isn't defined, and probably isn't agreed upon by many readers and editors, so it's POV and unnecessary. The other article is listed under See also, so readers will know how to find it. Also, why choose to highlight only Israeli terrorism in the intro, when there are dozens of other arguably relevant articles we could also highlight in order to make political points? ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:08, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

: Because ] is a ] of ]. The immediate question any normal reader will ask is: why is this article about "militant actions, which detractors have categorized as "terrorist acts" by Zionist paramilitary groups within the British Mandate of Palestine and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War", when Zionist terrorism continues considerably beyond that point? An alternative approach would be to reword the intro and have a subsection devoted to Israeli terrorism, but to write as if the title didn't include both is mystifying and inappropriate. - ] 01:12, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::That Israeli terrorism (completely undefined) is a subset of Zionist terrorism, is your opinion. I disagree that any normal reader will ask that question. I'd say any normal reader would accept that the article is about what it says it's about in the intro. You could change the title to "Zionist terrorism 1937-1948", though I also feel the use of the word terrorism is serving only to make a political point. It would make more sense to find a completely neutral title to describe that period and the particular acts you want to focus on - but at least adding the dates would deal with the objection that the article assumes a false cut-off point. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:20, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

::: The cut-off point was also inappropriate; non-state Zionist terrorism continues after the establishment of Israel, as the article now notes. Your complaint that "Israeli terrorism" is undefined argues, perhaps, for renaming that article ], in accordance with its actual topic; but it still remains a subset of Zionist terrorism, since Israel is the Zionist state. Your point about finding a "completely neutral title" is interesting; I don't suppose you plan to apply it to any of ], ], ] (et al...) - ] 01:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::"That Israeli terrorism (completely undefined) is a subset of Zionist terrorism, is your opinion" - are you serious? Or is Israel no longer a Zionist state? - ] 01:32, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::I'm the wrong one to accuse of being inconsistent when it comes to the use of the word "terrorism," as I almost never use it, and argue against it a lot. The intro now reads: "This article deals principally with the actions, described by detractors as terrorist acts, of Zionist paramilitary groups within the British Mandate of Palestine and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War," which is better English and more concise. I deleted: "Governmental actions by Zionists are dealt with separately, under the rubric of ]," because it's POV, Mustaafa. Not everyone shares your view on this. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:34, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

::::: I find this mind-boggling; it's simply not arguable that Israeli terrorism is not Zionist terrorism. But since you insist, I propose an alternate wording, which does not give the misleading impression that Zionist terrorism stopped in 1948, nor leave the reader wondering why Israeli state terrorism isn't listed. - ] 01:39, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::::You find it mind-boggling because you hold a strong POV on this issue, and that's what's causing the problem. You simply can't see that someone might legitimately disagree. I think you've violated 3RR by inserting a reference to Israel back into the intro more than three times. If you agree, perhaps you could take the opportunity to revert yourself. You could also consider making your point somewhere else in the text; it's in part that you want it upfront in the intro that makes this very in-your-face and POV. I haven't read the Israeli terrorism article yet, but I'm pretty sure it's going to contain examples that many people will argue either (a) are not acts of terrorism, or at least (b) are not acts of Zionist terrorism. In insisting that the Israeli terrorism article be mentioned in this intro as a subset, you're going to have to constantly monitor the Israeli terrorism article to make sure that everything it mentions ''is'' arguably a subset. The whole enterprise is a POV magnet, in my view. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:45, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

::::::: I certainly do not agree - not only was my edit very far from being a revert, but you will note that my new wording does not in fact mention the ] article, let alone link to it, making this a non sequitur. Can you give an example of something that could be classed as Israeli state terrorism but not as Zionist terrorism? I do, however, agree that "the whole enterprise is a POV magnet". - ] 01:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::::: PS: furthermore, I've only made 3 edits since SlimVirgin's edit, making this suggestion even odder... - ] 01:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::::::My apologies if I have the 3RR thing wrong, as I've only glanced at the history and haven't studied the diffs, but it does seem that you've reverted many times in the last 24 hours, not just since I started editing. You're right that your new edit doesn't explicitly mention Israeli terrorism - thank you - but it does refer to it. Anyway, I don't want to be in 3RR violation myself, so I'm not going to change it, and I also don't like editing by revert. An act that might be classified by some as an act of Israeli state terrorism would be the assassination of a Hamas leader believed to have organized suicide attacks. You would perhaps calls this an act of Zionist terrorism; I would call it an attempt by a government to stop civilians being blown up by suicide bombers. The different vocabulary indicates the difference in POV, which is why I argued that it's POV to state that Israeli state terrorism (undefined) is unarguably a subset of Zionist terrorism. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 02:13, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::It is a subset of imperialism! ] 03:03, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see that there has been an acceptable compromise, so some of the following may be superfluous: I think, as often is the case, the problem is with the definition of terrorism.
One should understand that by what Mustafaa seems to (reasonably and nonPOVly) use as the definition, it really is a matter of logic and not in the least POV that Israeli (state) terrorism is a subset of Zionist terrorism, even if one held that both are the null set - so SlimVirgin's objections ''then'' sound as strange as an argument that say, "Shi-ite terrorism" should not be considered a subset of "Islamic terrorism".

The current compromise does include post state events, not necessarily geographically restricted to Israel, and which might include JDL/JDO actions, the assassination of Alex Odeh, the (attempted) assassinations of the West Bank mayors, etc. Another thing which is striking and afaik unique (maybe another example is anti-Czarist Russian terrorism though) and perhaps should be in the article is that not only the detractors used the word "terrorist" but supporters and members themselves at the time (as well as former members years later), (albeit maybe somewhat or sometimes ironically). E.g. Doris Katz's autobiographical ''The Lady was a Terrorist'', or Ben Hecht's "Letter to the Terrorists of Palestine."--] 04:55, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==More Baruch Goldstein==

I don't understand why he is in this page. The article is about alleged Zionist terrorism, not outlawed political organizations which the Israeli goverment deemed terrorist. Baruch Goldstein acted alone, so he does not fall into the category of a paramilitary Zionist organization. Kach, a political party had little to nothing to do with his act, and the fact that they were deemed illegal has little to do with this article. Unless you have a concrete connection between a Zionist paramilitary organization and a violent/destructive act, all the information you have added on Baruch Goldstein is wholly irrelevent to this page.

] 10:13, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:That's what I said yesterday (and in turn, Grace note changed the intro so it could be included &ndash; in a rather ''ungraceful'' manner, if I may add), but having found that Israel moved to title them as terrorist organizations <u>because of</u> the Goldstein incident, I find they are both noteworthy for this topic even with the intro having been changed back by you (which I have no problems with and actually am in favour of). ] 10:37, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Certain members of Kach showed support after the fact, but they did not provide any logistics of weapons for him to carry out the act. This has been proven. Plus, they believe that those Muslim worshippers were planning another Hebron massacre against Jews. Conjecture on our part would be disingenuous.

] 22:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


:::* Oh, well if he had what he thought was a good '''reason''' -- what are we getting so worked up about?

:::* You're probably right. The phrase "terrorism" should exclude those people who attack civilians for what they, the attackers, believe to be really, really good excuses for doing so. ] 12:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Furthermore, Kach is, or by some arguments formerly was, a militant racist organization which prompted a change of the Israeli constitution in 1985 to disallow such groups; though that alone does not grant an entry in this article; it certainly gives creedance to the claim that they supported Goldstein --] 14:07, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Kach was a political party organized to get Meir Kahane elected. Israeli politicians were searching for any reason to get the party banned because Kach was projected to win 5 more seats at the next election cycle. Although Kach did not support Goldstein's actions, overzealous Kach members gave the Knesset an excuse to ban the party despite it's actions. That's why I think it is irrelevent to mention them.

] 22:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


:As I keep saying: it was as a ''result'' of the Goldstein incident that Israel branded Kach a <u>terrorist</u> group. Guy Montag's statement above that <code>he article is about alleged Zionist terrorism, not outlawed political organizations which the Israeli goverment deemed terrorist,<code> is one which I find most preplexing ''viz.'' the article's topic. ] 14:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::It sounds as if he is saying that such ''allegations'' which are directed by the government of Israel and that of the United States towards Kach are, somehow, not worthy of inclusion. The question, then, is whose allegations are noteworthy? ] 14:59, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::I've added the Canadian government as well. When it comes to the designation "terrorist", these would be better than most in terms of citation. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 22:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's not that I do not value designations by the US government (even though in this case I feel the designation was motivated more by politics rather than any concrete terrorist actions on Kach's part, but I guess that's irrelevent), it's the fact that an organization was made illegal is irrelevent to an article about militant '''acts'''. I personally do not know if Baruch Goldstein can be added there. First, the group he belonged to at the time was wholly legal and it was a loosely affiliated '''political party''', not a paramilitary organization. Secondly, the fact that some members of Kach supported his actions doesn't dstroy the fact that Baruch acted alone, and Kach was made illegal despite it's actions.

] 22:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Again, I'm afraid that is too rigidly legalistic of an approach, which I find flawed, due to these official designations as ''terrorist'' and the direct impetus for these (being the Goldstein incident), I think that's important. If you can demonstrate that Israel, the United States, and Canada new definitions were ''politically motivated'', that would be a useful addition to the account we have here. ] 23:18, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am studying law, so forgive me for my legalism :). Well, I can't prove political motivation, I can only extrapolate from examples of groups and demostrate what I mean. The State Department lists Kach as a group which "followed the groups&#8217; statements in support of Dr. Baruch Goldstein&#8217;s attack in February 1994 on the al-Ibrahimi Mosque&#8212; Goldstein was affiliated with Kach&#8212;and '''their verbal attacks on the Israeli Government'''." I do not feel that verbal attacks against the Israeli government qualifies as justification for banning a political organization, especially if they did not carry out any violent acts. It would be a double standard. Hell, if these reasons were used for other organizations in Israel, ''there would be no political life there''. But it wasn't. Obviously, the Israeli government felt in the wake of public response, that it could take actions to ban it. For these reasons I think it was politically motivated. And Speaking of State Department classification, it followed Israeli classification.

] 01:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::I've added the Canadian government as well. When it comes to the designation "terrorist", these would be better than most in terms of citation. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 22:26, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::Thanks, Jay (for the instructive additions, too). I was all out of reverts. :) ] 22:48, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::::Glad to help; anything to improve the encyclopedia and enforce its policies. :-) ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Guy, it had been banned as a political party 6 years before; whatever it was, it was certainly no longer a political party. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 23:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, I meant a loosely affiliated political organization. As the discussion stands now, I agree that the version that stands about Kach is more or less NPOV. I do not yet know if it belongs there, but lets continue. I am leaning toward keeping it, but it still warrents discussion.

] 01:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Same old, same old ==

I'm not spending hours of my life fighting inveterate POV pushers. What a waste of time! It's risible that you pretend to "discuss" the article.

This is outrageous:
"This article deals with actions, which detractors have categorized as terrorist acts by Zionist paramilitary groups within the British Mandate of Palestine, before and after Israel's establishment."

The well is poisoned from the get-go by suggesting that only "detractors" consider Zionists to have committed "terrorist" acts. I can't even begin to understand the mentality of people who think some of the things we are talking about are not terrorism -- even if committed by their own side. Then the article's scope is circumscribed by saying it will only cover "Zionist paramilitary groups"! That neatly excludes a/ the state of Israel and b/ any lone wolves who we may or may not want to write about. And what is the bollocks about the British Mandate of Palestine? We're just not interested in Zionist terror elsewhere? ] 23:12, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, same old: it being about you not going to do this, and you not going to do that. Why don't you add information to this article then, or change the lead? You are familliar with the topic enough to do so? All you have added to this article and topic thus far has been hostility. You come into this article with an ''a priori'' anger, and we're supposed to say: yes, your grace? Ahuh. ] 23:28, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Sorry, was there any defence of that paragraph among that spittle-flecked nonsense? Or were you just indulging yourself in a personal attack to show solidarity with your chums? I do feel ''hostile'' against this sort of trash, El C. Anyone with the least regard for NPOV ought to. Not to mention anyone with a regard for decent writing, who will be appalled by the atrocious grammar it indulges in. ] 01:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Apology accepted! I'm sure everyone here agrees that my writing cannot even be remotely compared to yours, but I do aspire to reach those heights, your grace. And I look forward to your edits to the article and further insights.] 01:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::Guy Montag agrees that you're the greatest writer living! Well done. ] 04:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you shouldn't have come out of your much vaunted retirement. It would save you time dealing with editors (everyone is a pov pusher) by cooperating and assuming good faith. Now unless you have something to add, get a blog and rant there, or add something of value.

] 01:55, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:As if I am POV pushing over the Israeli-Palestinian articles, GN has shown zero evidence that I have, only anectodal innuendo. I dare say that I have a reputation for objectivity on such issues, and am even considered authoritative (which I'm not: Jay and Zero are probably more familliar with the scholarship than myself). And at any rate, I have contributed ten times, a hundred times more in this encyclopedia to 20th Ct. African history than I have 20th Ct. ME history. I take exception to all of Grace Note's insinuations and accusations against myself. ] 03:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

===Pride and lack thereof===

::The article speaks for itself. Your pride in it speaks for itself too. Your idea of "objective" might well encompass defining "Zionist terrorism" so that it excludes one of its most visible perpetrators, but I do not. And I'm well aware of the kind of "scholarship" that considers Baruch Goldstein not to be a terrorist. ] 04:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::'''Pride in it?''' In your obviously highly confused mind, maybe. For the last time, I did not author this article, <u>I have not edited or even looked at it until yesterday.<u> Why do you keep affiliating myself with the contents of this article? I suspect this is a measure of your hasty and superficial research methods (or powers of observation, for that matter). '''''' is the only appreciable edit/addition of mine to the article, you have yet to tell me what fault you found in it, nor cite any evidence whatsoever regarding my purported pride and otherwise nonesensical shortcomings which you (falsely & abusively) attribute to me. ] 05:02, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::As for the ''chums'' comment: I'm starting to think that GN just wants me to be hostile and unfriendly (because that is the stance he has addopted?) Who am I to collaborate collegially with Jay on, let say, ], or with Mustafaa on ]? I must fight, fight, fight. More tension, less compromise, choosing sides just for the sakes of it, being needlessly combative, et cetera, etc. And, of course, any edits I make means that I am responsible for &mdash;and take pride in&mdash; that given article. ] 05:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and you revert everything. I'm not suggesting you fight with anyone, least of all me. I do suggest you lay off the strong liquor before editing though. ] 13:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:You mean in diff that I explained was definitionally problematic in being listed that way before but that you haven't read because you reverted it from your ? The one I had to solve (after a 2 minute search) because you were unable to take the hint (about as subtle as a sledhammer) and assume this monemunetal undertaking upon yourself? Albeit for me to presume that you undertake any of the research yourself there. Now it is the legnthiest paragraph in the article, is undisputed by either side. Thanks for all the help. ] 07:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=="Critics" vs "Detractors"==
The term "Critics" doesn't cut it - it is inaccurate, conferring a sense of legitimacy as well as an implied amount of neutrality to those who use the term "Zionist terrorism" to describe various events or people. The term "detractors" does not imply these and is therefore more accurate, particularly as relates to modern-day events that the POV pushers keep trying illegitimately to add to this article.] 05:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:I suppose, then, that John L. Peeke's (of the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School), '''', is a detractor. ] 06:26, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) <font size="+2">***</font> Phew, I almost reverted back to ''critics''; I'm sure there is/are some editor/s above who would have loved to see me undergo a ''graceful'' block over a 3RR violation for the 1st time ever, so as to even some inexplicable score. ] 06:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Enviroknot if your opinions are going to take precidince over how much you value a clean factual and nutral article; you have no place in editing Wiki. Just because you feel that the world critics gives creedance to those who oppose militant zionism, doesn't make you right, it makes you and editorial writer. If you want to do that get a degree in journalism and get a job. --] 08:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*Enviroknot obviously values a clean, factual, and neutral article far more than you do. The fact remains that "zionist terrorism" is just Islamist code for "evil Jews" today - a vain attempt by Islamists and Islamic Apologists to deflect attention from the human rights abuses, racism, hatred, and terrorist mentality that is inherent in anyone who follows "true" Islam. The term has nothing to do with Irgun or Lehi, who can easily be covered in their own articles, and is only used as an excuse by Islamist nations like Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia or as a rhetorical point by racist Muslims like Edward Said. They are not "critics", and even the term "detractors" is inaccurate but at least it's not a whitewash like "critics" is. &mdash; Unsigned comment by ], please <u>sign</u> your comments. <small>] 01:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)</small>

:Everyone understands and is more than familiar with the word critic. Detractors is confusing and pointless. IMO --]</font> <small> ]</small> 09:10, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Critics, or the simple, "could be" - I think "could be" a reasonable way of saying it, without attaching a POV to whether they were terrorist attacks or not. --] 09:43, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::I've created a new version of the intro, copied from ]. Guy Montag, I don't quite know how you can say the acts committed by Irgun and Lehi are "alleged" - they're historical facts. --] 10:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am saying that critics call it terrorism, what those actions were in actuality are more complex. Labelling those acts terrorism is a pov, so their pov is given. The more confusing you make it sound without stating outright that it is those who didnt like those acts who call it terrorism, the more pov you will be making this article.

] 23:25, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::It's important to reiterate the article title in the first line of the article, as per Misplaced Pages style. "Detractors" is a loaded term - "critics" carries far less negative connotation. Conversely, it's important to make clear that this is a disputed topic. Hence, the "the use of this term is disputed" line. --] 10:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

*I am also going to note that the previous consensus-built intro paragraph to this page said "critics" - therefore it is incumbent on those who wish to change it to create a consensus to change it again. --] 10:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Thanks for a little sanity here Travis. Look, those of you who claim the term critic is a white wash, I challenge you to prove that there are no critics of Zionist terrorism, but ratehr only Islamic Jew-haters. When you can do that your EDITORIAL OPINION will have validity. And its not only that, but the type of language that "critic" represents falls exactly in line with other articles regarding Israel Palestine and Zionism. Look people, there is a reason you don't edit articles that you have a vested intrest in; and the reason is being clearly demonstrated right now. I don't edit articles abou socialism or atheism, because I belong to both groups, and I cannot write about them without putting my own POV into even though that is not my intention. --] 16:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::Well, as I'm not Jewish, or from anywhere in the Middle East, or someone who has any biased views on the matter, or someone who usually edits such articles, I guess that means I'm more than welcome to edit here. And it is perfectly possible to criticize Israel etc. without being a "Jew-hater". Just stick to the facts, give arguments from all sides, and don't censor something because you don't like it personally. --]</font> <small> ]</small> 19:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One almost feels like asking "detractors of what"? The POV pushers who insist on it know, of course, what they mean. It's code for "anyone who doesn't blindly support Israel's actions in every sphere" ("Israel etc." as Silversmith so delightfully puts it). But it's actually nonsense. So is "critics", unfortunately. Critics of what? "Zionist terrorism"? One would hope that everyone would be a critic of that. This is the problem with attempts to bias pages -- you end up with writing that is aimed at other WP editors and not at potential readers. We all know why you've put in that stuff about critics/detractors, but it doesn't actually make any sense to anyone coming to it fresh. ] 13:19, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Grace I really like your last revision and will support it. I would support the page remaning with the wording it has now. --] 13:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I second this - I like how it is now and would back the wording staying as it is. ] 19:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Controversy section==

:I've taken the liberty of adding a Controversy section so that we can get down to brass tacks - who's debating the issue - in more precise terms than "critics" or "detractors" or whatnot. I'm not particularly versed on the arguments for or against calling it ] - so I've put in what seems to make sense. Please feel free to edit that area mercilessly. --] 10:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Detractors is obviously a loaded term. If you cared about POV we wouldn't even be having this debate. Detractors implys those who call certain acts by Israel as "terrorist" are both uninformed and racist, neith of which need be true. --] 13:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== Dialogue and lack thereof ===

All and sundry should be aware of this that Enviroknot has been operating as ] of, among others, the foul-tempered, disruptive KaintheScion, and that arbitration has begun against same. ] 17:43, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

=== However, the use of this terminology is hotly disputed. ===

delete: "However, the use of this terminology is hotly disputed." - redundant - this terminology is ALWAYS disputed. One man's terrorist etc &mdash; Unsigned comments by ]. Please <u>sign</u> your comments. <small>] 01:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)<small>

=== critics who call it terrorism ===

It isn't only the critics who call it terrorism. Lets stick with how we use it here and avoid judgemental language. Qualifying the use of the word like this signifies neither approval nor condemnation. &mdash; Unsigned comments by ]. Please <u>sign</u> your comments. <small>] 01:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)<small>

Guy Montag, I am losing patience. "Detractors" is clearly POV while "critics" is a neutral term. Of course "those who dislike the acts" are those who are calling it terrorism - just as those who support the acts of Hamas are those calling their terrorist acts "freedom fighting." The word "critics" was determined by a consensus to be a fair word three months ago and was not touched until you introduced your POV three days ago. You have not demonstrated consensus for your change and I will continue to revert it to the original wording. --] 02:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are you babbling about? '''There is no original wording'''. We split off the articles from Israeli terrorism. Zionist terrorism is a new article that needed an introduction and I provided the most stable one. The entire article is a pov riddled cesspool for the reason that it is now a new article. My attempt to npov it happened after it was split off, so please don't start pointing fingers. No one has demonstrated consensus for anything, so I have no idea why you believe your version is npov. When the article was split off there, El C agreed that my wording was the best, and the disagreement came over a basically synonymous term, if we should use "critic" or "detractor". Critic and detractor means the same thing. The disagreement is over which sounds more npov and specific. You instigated a flame war in an article on the edge. We were doing just fine discussing whether to change it from detractor to critic before you barged in. With you came Yuber and the usual petty editors hit and running the article. Now it is going to take at least a week to get things in order.

] 04:06, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Guy, I am sorry to contradict you, but I think you must have misunderstood me. I never argued your wording was the best. I was attempting to avoid touching the lead altogether, and only changed it in relations to the contents bellow, to fit definitionally (thereby bringing charges against myself of great Zionist *and* Palestinian bias, which was rather entertaining). Now, critics is problematic, detractors is more problematic. With certain pre-statehood terrorist acts, it isn't just critics who argue this: it is the ]. As I mentioned on this article's VfD (though no one except Zero seemed to care: ironically, he is the most qualified editor yet to vote, that I know of, at least), such authoritative sources as ''The Encyclopedia of Jewish History: Events and Eras of the Jewish People'' calls it that. As for Kach, while they have not committed any actual terrorist acts (they don't need to: what I call Israeli State terror &mdash;what you call counter-terror&mdash; does that already while, at the same time, inspiring counter-terror in Kach members, also), the American, Israeli, and Canadian govs. all title them this way. Should we call them ''official critics'' (when two of these critics are nuclear powers, and one of them, Canada, apperently being a ], or so I'm told over and over and over again, mercilessly and unremittingly) ? ] 04:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:-I- instigated a flame war? Hardly. I don't know who these "usual petty editors" are that you are referring to, but I should think you should check my edit log before accusing me of being a POV flame warrior. These are my first edits to anything resembling an article about the Arab-Israeli conflict. In fact, I ran across the issue while watching RC Patrol. I hardly think it will take a week to get things in order, and you give me no credit for my attempt to *defuse* the war. I introduced a Controversy section which should be properly used to include the debate over whether specific incidents are terrorism and the debate over the ramifications of the alleged terrorism, instead of filling Talk page after Talk page with debate. Put the ideas down in the article. Which critics say this is terrorism? Who says it's not? What makes this so hotly disputed? Why are you not adding your obvious knowledge of this issue into that section so that readers will understand the arguments on each side?--] 05:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We were about to discuss things peacefully before the flame war. I am not accussing you of maliciously causing it, but by unilateral action, you inadvertantly have turned this into a flame war. Now we need to get back to discussion.

] 23:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:I mean, who in their right mind today is going to be confused about whether Canada is sovereign from the United Kingdom? Comeon. It.does.not.make.sense. But that is the sort of argument I was faced with, to give you an idea of my plight. ] 05:27, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I also agree with FCY, detractors is heavily POV. But we should expect that from Guy Montag...]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 04:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Go take a long walk of a short pier. Unless you have nsomething to contribute, dont waste people's time with your personal attacks.

] 04:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:No one is going to take ''short walks'', and we are no longer going to discuss ''expectations.'' ] 04:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Montag he has a point, by your own admission you are a violent Zionist. You should really consider you true motivations in editing this and other articles before continuing. --] 09:54, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please read ] and ] before contributing to talk.

] 23:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Grace, I think you found an acceptable introduction. I wont change it anymore.

] 06:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If pointing out you biases is a case of ad hominem argument you are wrong. If I had said yo shot a palestinian man, you would be right, I did not say that; if i had said you where a racist, you would be right, but i did not say that; if i had said you thought Jews were a race superior to all otehrs, you would be right; but I did not say that. I simply pointed out you had vested intrests is seeing that one sides viewpoint was expressed in a favorable way. --] 17:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You could have worded it that way without calling me a violent Zionist. If you had any previous history in editing with me you would have known that I am fair with all the material involved. It is my right to push my pov within wikipedia policy, just as it is your right to push yours. As long as we are both reasonable, and by editing with me you will find out that I am, we can come up with an ideal solution. Now let's get back to work.

] 20:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Militancy vs Terrorism==

I had this idea pop into my head yesterday. Terrorism is a subjective term, but we need certain criteria for wikipedia to get anywhere with these articles. Some could be simply guerrilla attacks or other forms of legitimate warfare, but others could legitimately catagorized as terrorist acts. I think that we should rename articles where the majority acts could be construed as military operations to "something militancy" and mention that some call it terrorism, and rename those where the majority of diliberate targets are civilians into "something terrorism". What does everyone think?

] 23:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think that you then have a big argument over whether the "deliberate targets" really were civilians or not. Furthermore, there are those who believe that demonstrative acts of violence (I won't give examples but we can talk about them if you like) are "terrorist" because even though they can be claimed to have a "military" or quasi military target, they are carried out in the knowledge that civilians will die. There are those, too, who argue that civilians are legitimate targets of war, because war is prosecuted against a state, and not its military. Those who believe that area bombing in the Second World War, for instance, was justified could not on principle oppose the bombing of civilians in Israel or their killing by the IDF.

The big problem is that definitions of terrorism tend to serve other ends of the definer. States like to define it as "nonstate violence"; Israelis like to define it so that it excludes what they see as acts in defence of Israel; those who support the Palestinians' aspirations tend to define it so that it includes a broader range of killing of civilians, sometimes because to some extent it serves their political agenda to equate the IDF with other combatants in the general area of Israel.

However, Guy, having said that, I think that one has to accept that there is a ''concept'' of Zionist terrorism, just as there is of "Islamist terrorism". People do talk about it and consequently we should report them talking about it. We do not need to take a stance for ourselves on that. (Your relentlessly pushing the notion that "critics" or "detractors" (of something or other that you don't note) call it terrorism takes exactly the kind of stance that we should avoid -- with that version we are saying in effect that there is no terrorism but some people -- who we are implying are wrong -- think there is. Saying that there is no terrorism, when the facts of the violence we are discussing are generally not in dispute, is taking a stance on the definition of terrorism, which we ought not to do.)

By seeking a/ to have the page title changed or banned (by VfD) and b/ to very narrowly define what it can refer to, you are trying to prevent coverage of the concept. Covering the concept does not, we should be clear, mean validating it, or should not. If we were careful enough to apply the NPOV policy, it would not. ] 23:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:A bit rambling, but overall, good points. ] 08:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seeing as the Palestinian terrorism article has been changed to match; this seems like much better and more balanced terminology to me. good idea all around. --] 04:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

== JDL is '''Zionist''' terrorism? ==

Can someone please explain why the acts of the JDL are considered '''Zionist''' terrorism? As far as I know the JDL is not a Zionist organization. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:They are Zionist in every definition of the word. JDL graffiti has been found on settler's homes in Hebron as well.]<sup><small><font color="#FF8C00">]</font></small></sup> 15:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, who defines them as "Zionist", and why would graffiti ascribed to them be relevant? Or is "Zionist" being used as a synonym for "Jewish" here? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 17:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:The JDL is a Zionist organization in virtually every sense of the word "Zionist". See for example.--] 06:26, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
::Also, if you contact any of the JDL's leaders via email, I'm pretty sure they'll identify themselves as Zionistic.--] 06:29, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Look at - in particular "It realizes that in the end ... that the true solution to the Jewish problem is the liquidation of the Exile and the return of all Jews to Eretz Yisroel -- the land of Israel." or " ... Zev Jabotinsky, his followers and his movement of which we consider ourselves a spiritual part."--] 17:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: Part of their very first principle, ''ahavat Yisro'el''. That convinces me; it may not be ''primarily'' Zionist, but it's clearly Zionist. - ] 18:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Ahavat Yisroel" means love of Jews, not love of the State of Israel. It's a phrase that precedes political Zionism by a couple of thousand years. And the JDL doesn't actually mention Zionism as one of its principles. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 19:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See, for example, "Bais Ahavas Yisroel - House (that promotes) love of your fellow Jews"., "Ahavas Yisroel Love of fellow Jews", etc. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 19:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: No, you've misunderstood my point. The ''quote'' "the true solution to the Jewish problem is the liquidation of the Exile and the return of all Jews to Eretz Yisroel -- the land of Israel" is ''from'' their first principle. I am well aware that the name they gave it has a far more ancient history. - ] 19:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All Orthodox Jewish groups belive that the "that the true solution to the Jewish problem is the liquidation of the Exile and the return of all Jews to Eretz Yisroel -- the land of Israel"; it's a fundamental Jewish belief, inherent in a belief in the Messiah, one of the 13 Principles of Faith. That doesn't make ] or ] Zionist. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 19:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In any event, we can't label these groups what they don't label themselves. American Zionist groups are quite open and proud about their Zionism, and often include the word "Zionist" in their name. From what I can tell, the only groups that say the JDL is "Zionist" are anti-Semitic groups/websites that tend to use the word "Zionist" and "Jew" interchangeably. We shouldn't be doing our own original research on this. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 19:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:That last generalization is not accurate: . "we can't label these groups what they don't label themselves" is special pleading; how many Islamist groups label themselves Islamist? However, your point about the ambiguity of the quote above is well taken. - ] 19:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It actually is pretty accurate. Do was say "Hamas is a terrorist group?" No, we say "Hamas is listed as a terrorist group by the European Union, Canada, the United States, and Israel etc." precisely because these labels are hotly disputed. Calling ] a "Zionist terrorist" group is pretty straightforward; that's how they described themselves. Calling the ] a Zionist terrorist group also has at least some justification, in that they also labelled themselves as Zionist, and at least the British insisted they were terrorists. And if you want to label the JDL a terrorist group you're on pretty firm ground, because a number of reasonably credible sources have done the same thing. But if you want to label them as a "Zionist terrorist" group, you're in uncharted waters; either you rely on your own original research, or you rely on flaky and unciteable sources. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 20:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:Well, I don't think all Orthodox Jews would express themselves exactly that way. The JDL emphasizes "immediate action" in this respect, which is practically the definition of Zionism. How could it be (spiritually) part of Jabotinsky's movement - the Revisionist Zionists - and not Zionist? In addition, there's featured on the main page of the site, and the bio of Kahane, describes him "exhorting Jewish students ... to make aliyah to Israel." The current chairman's bio makes a point of saying he plans to make aliyah and the mission statement has "Jews comprise a religious nation ... with a destiny to live in and create within the Land of Israel a society ..." All in all, I think it clear it is that these statements should be interpreted to express immediate, not far-off desires so it is "Zionist" as an organization or at least an organization all of whose members are (strongly) Zionist. Mustafaa's cite doesn't seem flaky or unciteable, either. Thanks for reverting the Begin bio to my version, too. I think he deserves a biography that's to the point.--] 23:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Many Jewish organizations (and synagogues) are filled with memebrs who are strongly Zionist, but that doesn't make them Zionist organizations either. Regarding Begin, I thought your edit was good, as most of the stuff you removed was just pro-Israel apologetics anyway, it didn't belong in the article. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: If some terrorist group far far away announces that they are pro-Zionist, or some Jewish gangster in NYC announces that he is a Zionist, would them be added too - no matter what mainstream Zionists say? This seems doubly hypocritical in light of incessant attempts (including by some editors of this article) to present ] as a popular movement among Jews. ]&larr;]&larr;] 03:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::Jay and Humus, I appreciate your concerns, and I understand that there is a real problem with the wording and categorization. I don't really care too much about the exact wording, and Zionist militancy or terrorism and militancy or any other reasonable word in place of Zionism, would be fine as far as I am concerned. One problem is that there should then be symmetry with the words chosen here and for Islamic (ist) or Palestinian terrorism. It's a good thing there is the neologism "Islamist", so it does not put bad connotations on "Islamic" and avoids the problem Humus points out, but I don't see such a word choice here (Zionic? Judaist?). I just think that since people like Kahane saw themselves as heirs of Jabotinsky, like Begin, that it is not unreasonable to have an article that surveys all this sort of militancy anywhere - separating Kach, Kahane Chai and the JDL just seems unnatural. All these movements have some "family resemblance", even if fitting them squarely under one neutrally worded definition or category might be hard.

::Again, regarding the JDL, well, though I haven't seen them around in a while, I happen to be friends with some close relatives of Kahane, and of course conversation turns naturally sometimes to their (in)famous relative. I just felt that they would give me pretty strange looks if I questioned whether he was a (ultra)Zionist (and by extension his organizations, which were pretty personal vehicles afaik.)--] 18:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::: M. Begin denounced terrorism in 1948, and I do not consider continually dragging his name into the post-1948 discussion as ]. I also strongly object to the notion that "there should then be symmetry". See ] for one reason (an article we don't have - not surprising as "blame the Zionists" articles proliferate here). ]&larr;]&larr;] 23:06, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::I don't see how I am, if you mean me, dragging the mans name in - btw I recently edited a couple of articles for accuracy etc so that I put him in a better light IMO. I think that for all his faults, he was someone with a capacity for change, and a kind of brutal honesty and rationality that was absent in many of his successors and predecessors. I mean nothing more by "symmetry" than Misplaced Pages policy - one should not call the same category of acts militancy in one case and terrorism in another, it should be both X and Y terrorism or X and Y militancy, anything else not being neutral.--] 23:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::: John, no I didn't mean specifically you. BTW, I agree with you on both points here but still insist that bringing JDL into this article effectively means misrepresenting Zionism mainstream. ]&larr;]&larr;] 01:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If not Zionist terror, what kind of terrorism should we call what the JDL has attempted to do. --] 01:10, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

:Were they attempting to promote a Zionist cause? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 01:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

::As I see it in California they were attempting to kill people they viewed to be a threat to Israel; I would clal that Zionism yes. --] 01:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

:And how do you know they saw them as a threat to Israel, vs. a threat to Jews? Don't forget, this is the Jewish Defense League, a group that has self-appointed itself the "defender" of Jews outside Israel, not Israel itself. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 02:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Because there is a ringing endorsement of Zionsim and its defence on their webpage http://www.jdl.org.il/zionist_declaration_of_intent.htm . I'm not makign a value statement on Zionism here, saying weather it is bad or good; im just tried of people ignoring factual evidince because they disagree with it rather than for a relavent reason. --] 02:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, they support Zionism. Almost all Jewish organizations do, from charities to synagogues to baseball leagues. However, that doesn't mean all their actions are in support of Zionism. I too tire of people ignoring factual evidence, specifically about the JDL's actual philosophy and activities. Again, what makes you think the JDL actions were in support of Zionism and Israel, as opposed to simply carrying out their self-appointed mandate, "defending" Jews in the diaspora? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 02:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

::So please give me a reasonable justification for why a ringing endorsement of Zionism does not make them an organization in support of Zionism, im confused. --] 02:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, they support Zionism, but they are not a Zionist organization. Zionist organizations focus their efforts of support of Israel, and encouraging Jews to emigrate to Israel. The JDL is a militant organization focussed on "defense" of Jews outside Israel; their ''raison d'etre'' is not Zionism. Thus, for example, their plot to attack a mosque was anti-Muslim, but not Zionist. Zionist and anti-Muslim are not the same thing, not even close. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 03:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

So your saying you just disagree with the facts. In that case i'm sure you won't mind if militant zionist organizations like the JDL are included in this article will you. --] 05:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

: LouieS, JDL is not a Zionist organization. By claiming to support Zionism, they tried to appeal to Jewish masses. ]&larr;]&larr;] 07:09, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
:LouieS, please do not invent ] arguments for me. What "facts" do I disagree with? Reading your responses, it appears to me that you haven't even read what I've written. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

== "Zionist terrorism" vs. "Jewish Underground" ==
Zionist terrorism is in the end a pejorative. The correct term is the Jewish Underground.

] 04:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... does that mean, by extension, that "Islamist terrorism" is, in the end, a pejorative -- and because emotion-laden pejoratives are (as you seem to be arguing) by definition POV, we should find another term for that phenomenon, as well? Please advise. ] 02:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No it does not. It means that Jewish underground is the historic term. If you want to defend Palestinian terrorism against women and children, do it in another article.

] 04:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


:Now I'm really confused. Under this reasoning...

::* We shouldn't use "Zionist terrorism" because it's a pejorative, and the correct term is the ''Jewish Underground.''

::* When asked whether the word "pejorative" applies to the phrase "Islamist terrorism," though, your answer is "No, because ''Jewish underground'' is "the historic term.''"

::* But Islamist movements '''predate the founding of Israel,''' and so non-pejorative names for them would seem to be just as "historic." I'm still not sure why my claiming that the term "Islamist terrorist" should be replaced by another (non-pejorative) phrase is different from your claiming that the term "Zionist terrorist" should be replaced by another (non-pejorative) phrase.

::* Help! ] 10:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Guy, the "Jewish Underground" is a far broader topic than Zionist terrorism, and, unlike Zionist terrorism, stops in 1947. If you want to write an article on them, then by all means do so, but be aware that it is not an alternate title for this one. - ] 19:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

<code> If you want to defend Palestinian terrorism against women and children, do it in another article</code>. That comment was out of line, Guy. I insist that you keep it civil; I don't wish to see this talk page deteriorate again. ] 21:38, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== Attacks on military targets ==
It's silly to say that these do not count unless you are going to discount:
- the blowing up of the US marine baracks in the lebanon.
- IRA attacks on the British army in N Ireland.
- the attack on the pentagon on 9/11
- attacks by the PLO etc on IDF bases by child suicide bombers in Gaza
all military targets - all clearly terrorism. Or is anyone really proposing otherwise? ] 20:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:The least controversial defintion of terrorism involves attacks on civilians. Many would argue that attacks on military don't count. And each of those examples (Lebanon, IRA, 9/11, PLO) involve plenty of attacks on civilians. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 20:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:: With respect - yes you are right they do but only IF you consider them as a whole campaign (which is what we are doing for zionist terrorism in the article). But separately they are clearly attacks on strictly military targets. That's really my point - you have to judge the actions by its context - and the attacks in British soldiers by the early zionists are clearly as much a part of a terrorist campaign as the pentagon attack on 9/11 was part of a larger event. The attack at Warren Point was clearly a terrorist attack - despite only British Soldiers being killed etc. ] 20:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:They may be part of a larger campaign, but that doesn't make each incident a terrorist attack. Even the plane that almost hit the Pentagon was filled with civilians. Why not just stick to the unambiguously terrorist incidents? ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 21:40, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have just reverted back to the original text including these attacks (which had remained stable for some time now) PLEASE do not revert back without agreeing the change in the talk page first. ] 21:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Don't revert? I haven't edited this article in months, except once to add back Kach and Kahane Chai, with additional references, when they were deleted. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 22:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think a more appropriate term for the attacks on the USS Cole, US barracks in lebannon, IRA attacks of the brittish army would be gurrila or insurgent attacks. Their purpose was clearly not to harm civilians (which as Jayjg said, is the more agreeable definition as to what is and is not terrorism). It seems like the people who are the victims of such gurrila attacks are the first one to call it terrorism as a means of generating symapthy. Millitary actions from the hit and run tactics of the US revolution to the attack upon Peral Harbor have been characterized as cowardly acts and more or less as terrorism; yet clearly we do not view tham as such from a contemporary standpoint. --] 22:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:: I think that the ordinary dictionary definition of words is the one we should use for preference:

:: ter•ror•ism P Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)

:: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." - from www.dictionary.com

:: What defines "civillian"? Is the killing of IDF reservists (ie 90%+ - well a big lot of them anyhow - of the isreali male population) "Civillians"?

:: Frankly I think that to discount the attacks on the US marine barracks and Warren Point as not being terrorism is stretching common usage past the point or credability in order to exclude specific examples. ] 22:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jayg - "dont revert" was not aimed at you spoecifically. It was a reference to LouieS rolling back what he thought were modifications when in fact I was rolling back to the original state. "(cur) (last) 21:25, 16 Jun 2005 LouieS (reverted unagreed to changes)" I just put a general notice on this section of the talk page. ] 07:06, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== And Humus Sapiens writes ... ==

''Terrorism was repeatedly denounced by mainstream Zionists, a fact that article fails to mention.''

::Welcome to my world, dude. :) ] 12:31, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yet early terrorists were elects to the Israeli parliament - we shoudl mention that too! ] 23:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: Folks, please stop removing the phrase ''Terrorism was repeatedly condemned and denounced by ].'' - Unless someone can provide an evidence that Jews (or anyone else for that matter) have some kind of ironclad insurance against violence in their ranks. Here, from the man who himself eradicated it in 1948 ]: "The increasing terrorist activities of the dissident organizations, Etzel and Lehi, and the beginning of a revolt by the entire Hagana, led to searches for arms in settlements and cities." (by the British) (Source: David Ben-Gurion ''Israel. A Personal History'' p.56 of a 860-page book, 1971). Jews are not angels, so let's stop denying common-knowledge facts that took place 60 years ago and move on. ]&larr;]&larr;] 06:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Humus. you are POVing the article with unfounded conjecture. The Altalena affair has nothing to do with terrorism. It has to do with Ben Gurion firing on fellow Jewish fighters in the War of Israeli Independence. I would suggest you remove this line. It does not belong in the article, and connecting the Altalena affair with stopping terrorism is not only incredibly offensive to me and those who fought in the war, but also highly innacurate.

] 18:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== VFD debate ==

Due to a lack of consensus at VFD, this article has been kept. An archive of the debate is kept at ] (''WARNING! One of the longest VFD debates in Misplaced Pages's history!'') ] ] 10:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

== By what possible logic can another VfD be appropriate... ==

... a single day after the last marathon VfD concluded? (See above.) ] 16:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


== Naming names ==

I tend to agree with Humus. If people are named, it should be in the main article, in "Pre-statehood Zionist militancy". Perhaps people who moved to the "left", like Nathan Yellin-Mor (or even Uri Avnery) could be mentioned too.--] 30 June 2005 16:40 (UTC)


== Controversy ==

The whole point about "controversies" is they represent a conflict between two (or more) points of view. To deny that there is a countervailing arguement to "many people consider this to not be terrorism" seems to be a denial of the meaning of the word "controversy" to me. ] 1 July 2005 23:48 (UTC)
:Not sure what you mean here. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 3 July 2005 02:40 (UTC)

Incidentally what does the abbreviation cp. mean? ] 1 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
:Copyedit. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 3 July 2005 02:40 (UTC)

== Poisoning the well? ==
Please stop ] you cant use the word "only" to make 50% of the organisations listed sound like they are marginalised. ] 4 July 2005 22:05 (UTC)
:There are four groups listed for Zionist terrorism in the article, and plenty more elsewhere. The article should not be needlessly self-referential, nor so specific as to require constant updating. Also, you don't appear to be using "poisoning the well" correctly. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 4 July 2005 22:08 (UTC)
:You don't appear to use the phrase "original research" properly either. It's generally impossible to prove a negative like that, but easy to prove me wrong; find me another instance of a group described as "Zionist terrorist" which actually self-described itself as "terrorist". It should be easy enough, there are at least eight groups I can think of that have been described that way. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 4 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)
:: Well - No. It's down to you to prove your own point. Please read the article on ] and shifting the burden of proof. In any event you should be avoiding ] as per official wikipedia policy. ] 5 July 2005 19:16 (UTC)

==Factual Dispute?==

Is there really still an exsisting factual dispute? If tehre indeed is please give evidince to support yo claim, or the factualy accuracy tag will be removed shortly (nutrality will remain). --] 00:05, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
:Given the on-going battle about whether the JDL actions count as Zionist terrorism, it would seem that a factual accuracy dispute still exists. ]<sup><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></sup> 01:46, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Thats a nutrality issue, JDL being a terrorist organization is a matter of opinio moreso than fact. --] 01:56, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

== JDL Zionism dispute ==

I propose a simple solution to ending this debate quickly and swiftly. I'll contact Bill Maniaci, head of the JDL in Nevada for an answer via email. Is this acceptable for everyone?--] 00:30, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

: And I'll ask Russian mafia folks if they wouldn't mind to affiliate their organization with Zionism (failing that, Sandinism or Greenpeace). Seriously, see the section about JDL above. ]&larr;]&larr;] 00:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea to me, Yoshiah. Ultimately - as with religions - self-identification has to be a primary determining factor. - ] 00:52, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


== Terrorism ==

Why on earth do people keep removing the link to ]? What possible justification can there be for not including it? ] 09:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

== Attempt to minimize casualties? ==

I removed the statement about the efforts of these terrorist organizations to minimize casualties and to only attack militatry targets. The statement simply does not make sense and is contradicted by subsequent information. All terrorist organizations want to receive attention by attacks on important targets or a great number of casualties, and to achieve this, many soft targets are attacked. The attack on the hotel and the murder of the UN mediator and members of the embassy are an example of this. ] 02:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
: No, some terrorist organizations use terrorism a means of seeking publicity, and not for the purpose of infliciting casualities. ] 20:28, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed the four sentences following the the explanations that Irgun or Lehi contacted the British administrators to warn them about the bombing. Although the information is correct, one has to take into consideration the brevity of the article. Adding a paragraph to explain the inadequate British repsonce to the warning is not needed. The two senteces about the fact that the number of casualties was attempted to be lowered and the specific example should be preserved, but I would urge you not to add a lenghtier description.] 15:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not following your statement, "one has to take into consideration the brevity of the article", as adding this material expands the article. The NPOV explanation is indeed required, since other editors have removed related information claiming that it was "factually incorrect". Further, this should be epxanded even more and is highly relevant to the topic. However, until I have time to do so, I am going to compromise by moving the content to a footnote. I can't find any relevant policy that supports removing this content from the article. --] | ] 23:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

:: I agree that the article should be expanded, by elaborating on the leaders and activities of the terrorists. However, when the entire article is so brief, adding a paragraph half its size that relates to the response of the British to one particular event it excessive. After all, there is a ] Page that contains all of this information. ] 13:54, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

== King David bombing ==

The details of the King David bombing and associated controversies belong on the page devoted to that subject. What was posted here is not correct. The British ''used to'' deny that a warning had been given, but that hasn't been true for a couple of decades. During the 1970s the secret British police report on the bombing was leaked, finally proving beyond dispute that a warning had been given. The report described how the telephone message was received by the hotel operator, passed from hand to hand, then reached the officer in charge only shortly before the bomb exploded. So the existence of the warning can be stated as fact; what remains disputed is whether the warning was given early enough for any reasonable reaction to have been made. There is no evidence for the "summarily dismissed the warning" claim, that is just a story spread by the Irgun after the bombing. See Bethel, The Palestinian Triangle, for most of this. Btw, using Bibi as a source for ''anything'' is a joke. --] 05:45, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
:Thank you for the cogent analysis. --] | ] 06:11, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
: Sounds to me like the brits making excuses for why they were too incompetant to evacuate the hotel right away. The Irgun intended to warn the british, so that the casualties would be minimized. 91 dead is certainly higher than anything the Irgun intended. ] 01:51, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

== Lehi ==

Someone asked for evidence that Lehi described themselves as terrorist. One example is in the essay that is quoted in the section "Quotation" on the ] page. That essay uses the word "terror" transliterated into Hebrew and attempts to justify its use. The title of the essay is just "Terror". Another example is Stern's letter to Germany, which describes the group's "Terroraktionen" and "terroristischen Taetigkeit". There are other examples but those should suffice. It suited Lehi's purpose to portray themselves as fanatical and ruthless. Which they were. --] 00:21, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

* Citation means not merely claiming a quote exists, but clearly explaining where, when and by whom it was made, so that it can be fact-checked for accuracy. The "Quotation" page you refer to does not fulfill the need for accuracy. Doing further research reveals that the supposed quotes were actually taken from a single essay written by Yithak Shamir, who, while he was a member of LEHI, was not its leader. For further explanation see:

:Likewise, neither does the claim of "Stern's letter to Germany" -- I find no reference to such a letter written by Avraham Stern, himself. There is a claim that "In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine..." but there's no mention of the authorship. The image of the supposed letter posted in the article is actually just a coversheet, written by the German Naval attache-- not Stern-- and makes no reference to the contents.

:Further, a section of a book reprinted on a German Marxist web site claims that Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael- but did not mention Stern, himself-- made the overture to Germany:

:As is the case in dealing with historical scholarship, it's critically important to get as close to the original sources, and not rely on the repetition of material that may be floating around. In this case, it seems that the matter of further study, rather than approaching this with such an absolutist perspective. --] 04:06, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

:: Well, you can go to a proper source of information such as the book of Heller cited on the Lehi page and find the answers to all your questions. Briefly: the essay was published in the Lehi newspaper and does not have an author stated (normal for that newspaper). I have a photocopy of the original; it is also quoted by Heller. Shamir is most unlikely to have been the author, but in any case this was the official mouthpiece of Lehi not a place for presenting multiple opinions. So it is a definite example of Lehi calling itself terrorist regardless of which individual write it. The approach to the Nazis was led by Stern when he was the undisputed leader. This is very well known and you can check this in Shamir's autobiography, in the book of Heller, in the account of Yellin-Mor published in Brenner's "51 Documents", and in lots of other places. You can find Brenner's sources for this claim . Your confusion regarding the name "NMO" is due to the fact that Stern's organization at that time was called "''Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel)''" -- it was Stern's way of saying "we are the true Irgun". --] 12:18, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

:*My fault for editing late at night, while half-asleep-- I realized my error and had intended to put the full name, but in skimming what I'd written, I missed putting in the full name "Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael". Thanks for the additional note. I had actually found the section in ]'s book, The Iron Wall, after I posted the comment. That book appears to be the well-spring of various articles such as this one. I would suggest that Brenner imposes selective (and prejudicial) reading of the obvious hindsight analysis that the Stern Gang attempted to play on the various regime's anti-Semitism to convince them to relocate the Jewish population to Mandate Palestine. He quotes Shamir (via another source) as saying, "...Stern had good memories of his work in Poland before the war. He had got many Jews to Palestine by exploiting the anti-Semitism of Polish officials. He thought it might work in Italy. At least he felt he had to try." And likewise quotes a later statement by Shamir that, "There was a plan to turn to Italy for help and to make contact with Germany on the assumption that these could bring about a massive Jewish immigration..."

::However, Brenner pointedly disbelieves that Shamir was opposed to this plan -- which Brenner twice calls a "lie" with rather shaky evidence-- and makes particularly non-historian-like statements like "Shamir today pretends he was not fully involved in the Stern Gang’s pro-Nazi orientation, but we are fully entitled to conclude that his contemporary attitude towards collusion with the Colonels likewise reflects his thinking then, concerning collaboration with the Nazis."

::Such biased writing throws into question the veracity of Brenner's aim itself. As is clear from his further material in that chapter, Brenner isn't writing as a historian; he's laying out an indictment against Shamir (as then Israeli PM), Stern and modern Zionism-- which he contends is Revisionist Zionist, akin to fascism. In short, his work is an Anti-Zionist screed, with such closing statements as "We are, however, witnessing the initial stages of the terminal illness of Zionism..." and "One thing is, however, absolutely certain: the struggle against Zionism will go on, and inevitably it will succeed..." That's why Brenner's work appears on a German Marxist web site-- it's propaganda and selective history, just as ]. Written twenty years ago, the predictions in "The Iron Wall" have not yet come to pass. Brenner is a Marxist relic and fringe scholar -- not that there's anything wrong with that. But using it as a sole source is disingenuous and fails the NPOV. --] 18:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

::: Brenner is an activist and his work has to be treated carefully like with all activists. However, nothing I have written relies on Brenner as a source. --] 03:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


Now that the article's called militancy, shouldn't it include military organization and warfare against the armies of sovereign governments? Obviously violence against civilians was militant, but wasn't organizing an army and fighting the Egyptian army militant? Wasn't the 6 day war militant, and subsequent land grab militant? Wasn't developting a nuclear program?

== Attack of Thursday August 4 ==

A lot of information has been added but without source. The source that I originally added is woefully out of date. Further, the last revision claims that this AWOL soldier is a member of ], but the incident is not mentioned in the Katch article. Also, there have been numerous reports of this mans name, have any been confirmed? --] 22:18, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

: If you want to keep up with Israeli news, I recommend you adopt as a regular source. It has a high record of accuracy by newspaper standards. See for example, both your questions are answered. Incidentally, Haaretz articles disappear from the free part of the web site after a while (a week or a month) so they aren't suitable for putting into the article. --] 02:38, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

::Thanks for the link, ]. --] 19:51, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
:: Use Jerusalem Post instead, thier links stay good, ] 06:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

== Motivation of Zionist Attacks ==

To those who keep changing the sentence about Irghun's terrorist activities by including the part about the attacks' being a reprisal against similar Arab attacks, please stop. Information about Arab attacks is already available on other pages (such as Palestinian terrorism), and if it will be also included here, at least let it be in another sentence, although I would not encourage this. Nevertheless, the way the modifications is being made removes the part about many of the Arab victims' being civilians, and instead complements the sentence with a justification for the attacks. No other article on terrorism has such an appologetic form included so predominantly in the article. I urge you to refrain from making such changes in the future. ] 02:35, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

You really have no idea on the subject you are editing. They were reprisal attacks against Arab attacks against Jewish civilians and the Yishuv's inability or lack of will to do anything to defend against Beduin and guerrilla attacks.

] 22:21, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

== Terrorism, not militancy ==

The article should not be moved to zionist militancy. When we the discussion over the proper term took place no consensus was reached to make such a great change. In any case, I believe that it is ridiculous to use the term militancy instead of terrorism. The page about palestinian terrorism is called terrorism. This page fits the description of terrorism perfectly. There is absolutely no reason to change the word to militancy. The destruction of a civilian hotel and murder of politicians is by all means terrorism. ] 13:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The hotel wasn't civilian, it acted as the British military headquarters for the Mandate. Reading upon the subject you are discussing should be done before we start moving things around.

] 22:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I am aware of the fact that the hotel served as hq for the British, but included a certain number of civilians, but in any case, the British were not at war with the Jewish populace, therefore this act was an act of terrorism. And there is simply no way you can attempt to state that the other attacks did not represnet acts of terrorism. In any case, I agree that you can use the term militancy in some subsections that describe certain aspects of the warfare. Nonetheless, the article is classified under terrorism, and it is ludicrous to change its title to zionist militancy. ] 22:28, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing ludicrous about it. The Irgun was at war with the British Mandate, and the British Mandate was at various times at war with the Irgun. The only reason it is classified under terrorism is because an anon troll keeps doing so.

] 22:33, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


I understand your argument, however I continue to insist that this article should keep the current title and classification. This is a sensitive issue and various people have diverging views on the subject. However, while Palestinian terrorism retains this title, I don't think this article should be treated differently.

*ps. Montag, this is not relevant to the article, however when I saw that you persistently made these changes that are contrary to my views, I went to your user page to try to understand why you proceed thus. And the most interesting thing that I discovered is that you are from Chisinau, like me. What are the chances of that happening. LOL Well, despite of our differences, at least we have something in common. ] 22:41, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

The chances are pretty slim actually. Nice to meet you.

] 03:30, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

::Guy, I don't think you have consensus to move the title to "Zionist militancy". The fact that Kach and Kahane Chai are categorized as terrorist groups by even the US State Department, the Canadian government, and the Israeli government especially legitimizes the idea that such a thing as "Zionist terrorism" does indeed exist. Leave the title, and discuss NPOVing the contents instead. --]<sup><small>( ] | ])</small></sup> 01:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
::Please move it back to Zionist terrorism, then.] 01:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

::: We really dont have any consensus over a move here - so the original title "zionist terrorism" should remain. ] 01:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

::::I moved the page back to Zionist terrorism, not because I like that title, because I really dislike it, but because there was no agreement for the move, and Zionist militancy sounded just as bad. My preference would be ]. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:35, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

: Would you similarly support "Palestinian Political Violence"? Zionist terrorism in the 1930's was a profoundly important phenomenon and has been argued by many as forming the base pattern around which most modern media centric terrorism operates. It's increadibly important because 1. they won - very rare 2. many of today's Palestinain terrorists look at the early Zionists as role models. Lets not use weasel words and call a spade a spade - contemporaneously they were nearly universally known as terrorists (self admitted in some cases) it's a bit revisionist to call them otherwise now. ] 01:43, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

::I believe the British called the early Zionists terrorists, so I'd be more inclined to agree with you if we were talking only about the early Zionists, but people are adding contemporary criminal acts to the article, like that of Eden Natan-Zada. If I had to use the word "terrorism" anywhere, I'd say it's appropriate for groups who blow up international airliners without cause, warning, or even a claim of responsibility. The further we extend the definition beyond that kind of act, the more we dilute its descriptive meaning and rely on its prescriptive impact, which is POV. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 01:49, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

That actions of various militant Zionist groups, Kach, Lehi, Irgun etc., where classed as terrorist acts by major world governments (the same ones that today call pelestinian crimes terrorism) and saying otherwise is simply dishonest, regardless of if you agree or disagree with that classification. --] 09:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the name "Zionist terrorism" but "Zionist miltancy" doesn't handle the objection. "Miltancy" would include any sort of pre-state military activity such as of the Haganah, including operations that few would call terrorist and are not in the gamut of this page according to its current content. "Militancy" is also not less POV than "terrorism": calling an attack on a military target "terrorism" is not worse than calling a marketplace bombing "miltancy". We need a better idea. --] 11:39, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

What if the article was titled millitancy with a Terrorism subsection. I don't think it can be denied that there have been a few such acts (hotels etc.). --] 19:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

: A quick search in ] for "terrorism" and for "militant" (skipping Iraq) revealed:
:* An '''Israeli''' settler kills 3 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. The attack was condemned by Ariel Sharon as a '''"Jewish Terror act"'''
:* two Qassam rockets fired out of the Gaza Strip by '''Palestinian militants''' land near the southern Israeli town of Sderot.
:* Five '''Palestinians''', including '''Islamic Jihad''' leader Ribhi Amara, are killed in a gun-battle following an Israeli raid on the Palestinian refugee camp of Tulkarm in the West Bank. Israel maintains that all five were '''militants''', while eye witnesses say that three were unarmed teenagers.
: I'm wondering why such inconsistentcy in applying the terminology, especially in light of ] and ]. ]&larr;]] 21:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:: I don't see anything inconsistent. The only use of the word "terror" you have listed is in a direct quote from Sharon. The quotation itself is newsworthy as it is so rare for an Israeli politician to apply the word to a Jew. --] 00:05, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
::: I have no problem with that quote. I am talking about WP: if our policy is to avoid the T-word even for those who fire rockets into civilian areas, why use it here? ]&larr;]] 01:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

::: As I've said before, I'd be happy to ban the T-word from Misplaced Pages altogether. I can't understand why people are so obsessed with labels. It shows a sort of disrespect for the reader if we can't trust them to make their own moral classifications on the basis of the facts that we present. --] 09:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

==Marketplace bombings==

Zero, you of all people should know that summarizing actions in bullet points is not going to give all the information. All the historians I read have commented that the Irgun carried out marketplace bombings after the Yishuv snd Hagagah proclaimed their policy of "restraint" against Beduin and Arab raids on Jewish communities. The Irgun believed that they had to take the fight to the Arab side, and committed revenge attacks against villeges who sponsored the attacks.

] 19:06, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

For a historical reference, please see Jabotinsky and the Revisionist movement by Jacob Shavit.

] 23:56, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


All terrorist groups make similar claims. Wopuld you support a similar appology in the article on Palestinian Terrorism? That they were just responding to Israeli violence? Answer honestly now. ] 23:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


I refuse to discuss anything with you.

] 23:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

:: All in the spirit or working together - nothing likie cooperation! ] 23:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't cooperate with ].

] 23:20, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Unless there is some sort of private messaging going on here, you are totally out of control and being absolutely unreasonable. You need to shape up and then come back and edit. --] 20:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

== Stuff missing ==

(I'm trying to do too many things at once, but..) stuff missing from here includes various Jewish terrorist groups in Israel since 1948. For example there was the group that blew the legs off a couple of Arab mayors, a large number of attacks against Arabs in the West Bank in the early 1980s, various attempts to blow up the buildings on the Temple Mount, etc.. --] 15:25, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

== This is page is unusual ==

Shouldn't this page be called Zionist and Arabic terrorism inside Israel?
] 05:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

: No. See ] and lots of other articles for terrorism done by Arabs. Since this is your only comment here, I'm removing the tag you inserted. --] 09:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

==NPOV tag==
<small>moved from our talk pages<small>
: Hi. The thing is, you just inserted the tag now, so I'm uncertain as to what you are objecting to now (as opposed to when the tag was off). The first item you refer to dates ''11
: Jun 2005''. Please outline your ''current'' objections in a new section at the foot of the talk page, as per the requierments of the tag. Ad. For example, you can say, I feel that the
: removal of the tag was unwarranted due to (brief summary)). Thanks. Regards, ] 20:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Simple enough: removal of the tag is unwarranted because,

# The article is not neutral as it merges pre-Statehood "terrorist" activities by groups that were engaged in fighting for Israeli independence with the few post-Statehood acts of warped individuals committing random acts of violence, based on their extremist feelings.
# The article is not neutral because it is an attempt to create an anti-Israeli parallel with "]" -- pseudo-balancing is nonsense, although ironically the extensive ] article (which has been whitewashed to being called "Violence against Israel") still has an NPOV tag.
# The article is not neutral because I contend, along with many others, that the term "Zionist Terrorism" is itself an inherently biased article title, which is used to near exclusivity by anti-Semitic groups (not merely anti-Zionist groups)
# The article is not neutral because many others have and continue to point out that it is not neutral, as per the Talk page, and previous ], whereas I see no one who has written that it is neutral. quod erat demonstrandum.
] 20:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

:I agree; this article was designed (versus Israeli terrorism) for the pre-statehod era, instead it has somehow become Clandestine versus State terrorism. See also my (whiney) comment on ] (re: ]). ] 20:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

::Utter revisionist rubbish. This article is called "Zionist Terrorism". That is what the text is about. It is not called "Pre-statehood Zionist Terrorism". Zionism did not end with the creation of the state of Israel - just ask the likes of the settlers and extreme Rabbis. I suggest the objection comes from a lack of acceptance that there are Jews in Israel today who commit acts of terror. And why should an article about facts be considered "...an attempt to create an anti-Israeli parallel..."? Are we not allowed to talk about Jewish terrorists without being accused of being a racist, biased or unfair? Whether it be the Irgun in 1941 or Kach in 2005, it's all terrorism committed in the name of Israel and Zionism, whether Israelis and Jews like it or not. Indeed, the complainant uses the age old attack: criticism of Israel or Jews is anti-semitism, period. By the way LeFlyman: QED? - You proved nothing at all! You accused people of lack of neutrality yet offered no evidence or justification for your slant! What did you demonstrate, exactly? You claim it is not neutral because some people have said it is not neutral. Great analysis there. ] 12:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

:::PS International law recognises the right of an occupied people to fight their oppressor. Therefore, please can you change all references to "Palestinian terrorism" to "Palestinian freedom fighting" immediately. ] 13:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you made that last one up. Good job pulling things out of your ass.

] 00:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Mr. Anonymous User, the analysis is precisely correct; your oh-so vehement remonstrations point out the kind of warped perceptions that give credence to including an article called "Zionist terrorism" in a supposed encyclopedia: it's yet another means to hold Israel (and its people) up for opprobrium. Where is your outspoken indignity about the truly horrific and despicable inhumanities perpetrated in such countries as ], ], ] and the numerous other repressive regimes?

If you actually spent time with inductive reasoning (or learned to read Misplaced Pages's policy) you might have figured out this:
:"Note, however, that there is a strong inductive argument that, if a page is in an NPOV dispute, it very probably is not neutral. The salient point is that one side—who cares enough to be making the point—thinks that the article says something that other people would want to disagree with." ]

Here's a challenge: there are three supposed post-Statehood terrorist acts listed in the article. Can you point to any that was planned, organized and pulled off by a so-called "Zionist terrorist group?" (And I'm not talking about the stupid squabbles in the US between a single aging Kach member and someone he didn't like.) Before trying to claim that Zionist terrorists killed Itzhak Rabin, take note that the Council on Foreign Relations' terrorism site says:
:"Was Kach or Kahane Chai involved in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin?
:Not directly. Yigal Amir, who assassinated Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, was not a member of Kach or Kahane Chai. However, the assassin interacted with many Kahanists within Israel’s radical right and had contacts with a far-right Israeli group that is another offshoot of Kach. Binyamin Kahane would not condemn Rabin’s murder and said that “a person could understand Amir.”

In fact, even the ] Misplaced Pages article says, "Although the group has not been directly associated with any major crimes, they have been blamed for a variety of extremist activities and hooliganism."

Will you now argue that "extremist activities and hooliganism" equates to terrorism? If so, add British and Scottish ] to that security watchlist. ] 05:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying that the people who perpetrated the acts in question weren't Zionists? Are you not a Zionist if you don't belong to a group? I don't currently belong to any groups at all. Does that mean I don't have any political beliefs? Having said that, I'm not in favour of having pages on this, that and the other terrorism. Given that an NPOV definition of terrorism is just about impossible, I doubt any page of that kind could be NPOV. After all, there are plenty who would argue that the Israeli government are Zionist terrorists (I'm not saying they are, only that some would argue it) but this article doesn't reflect that.

Someone ought to point out though to the guy who wants the tag removed that fighting for a Jewish state and fighting for a Palestinian state can be seen as equivalent (again, I'm not saying they are or suggesting that the methods used in either cause were legitimate), and if an act in one cause is seen as "terrorism" then you have to wonder what permits us not to consider the same act not terrorism when it's perpetrated in the other. ] 03:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

==First sentence==
I reverted Grace Note's change to "Zionist terrorism is commonly used for ..." back to "refers here to," because it's not in fact clear that it's commonly used by anyone (or anyone credible). If it is, we'd need to supply a source. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 03:42, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

:Be my guest. Pick the eyes out of . And please, if Palestinians are "terrorists" when they blow up civilians, so are Zionists. I agree that they are not an "ethnicity" but no one has claimed they are. ] 06:04, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

::You seemed to imply Zionism was an ethnicity . And it's for you to provide a credible source showing it's commonly used. You're being somewhat obtuse in trying to compare the term to "Palestinian terrorism": if you were randomly to stop people in the street and ask them what that was, most would be able to give an example, and probably even name at least one group, whereas no one would have a clue what "Zionist terrorism" referred to, and possibly not even what the word Zionist meant. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:19, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

:::It's absolutely outrageous that you use this argument to create an imbalance between Palestinian militants and Zionist militants. I gave you a signpost to 28,000 uses of the term. You really want me to pick one out to illustrate that the term is used? Of course it's not used by the US government or equivalent sources. This approach to sourcing means that those who lack power are not considered "reputable" in Misplaced Pages. Why is Al Jazeerah not the equivalent of the ADL in your view? Do you not accept that it would be considered more "reputable" in many circles? It seems to me that "reputable" rather means "Western" round here, and is way, way too close to meaning "pro-Zionist".

:::I'm sorry for the loose use of "ethnicity". I should have said "groups" or similar. ] 06:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

::::Please tone down the rhetoric and stop the serial reverting. You were reverting Guy back to the consensus version, and now you're reverting me to yet another version. I'm asking you for a credible source that indicates this term is in common usage, as your first sentence claims it is. It needn't be a pro-Zionist source or a Western one, just a credible one: a non-Western counter-terrorist expert, for example, or historian. Alternatively, you could just leave it as "refers here to ..." which is why that expression was chosen in the first place, as I recall i.e. because of the lack of sources. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 06:53, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2019

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This article is biased in places because it lacks a factual chronology of events.

For example, it says:

"In February 1947, the British announced that they would end the mandate and withdraw from Palestine and they asked the arbitration of the United Nations. After the vote of the Partition Plan for Palestine on 30 November 1947, civil war broke out in Palestine. Jewish and Arab communities fought each other violently in campaigns of attacks, retaliations and counter-retaliations which provoked around 800 deaths after two months."

And:

"At the beginning of the civil war, the Jewish militias organized several bombing attacks against civilians and military Arab targets. On 12 December, Irgun placed a car bomb opposite the Damascus Gate, killing 20 people."

But the source cited after the second passage (note 15 -- Karsh 2002) clearly shows that the Palestinian violence came first and that the Zionist violence was a response. Here is a passage from Karsh 2002:

"Violence came to Palestine within hours of the UN vote on partition. In the early hours of 30 November 1947 as Jewish revellers were making their way home after the previous night's celebrations, an ambulance en route to the Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus came under fire. A few hours later a group of Arabs ambushed a Jewish bus bound from the coastal town of Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five of its passengers and wounding several others. They then attacked another bus travelling from Hadera to Jerusalem, killing two more passengers.

"Meanwhile, in Tel-Aviv's Carmel Market, on the fault line between the Jewish city and what was Arab Jaffa, a Jewish person was murdered. In the country's main gaol, in the northern town of Acre, Arab prisoners attacked Jewish inmates, who barricaded themselves in their cells until the British authorities managed to restore calm. In Haifa, shots were fired at Jews passing through Arab neighbourhoods, while Jewish vehicles were stoned throughout the country.

"The next day saw no reduction in violence. Shooting, stoning and rioting continued apace. The consulates of Poland and Sweden, both of which had voted for partition, were attacked. Bombs were thrown into cafes, killing and maiming, molotov cocktails were hurled at shops, a synagogue was set on fire. Scores of young Arabs flooded the offices of the local national committees demanding weapons. To inflame the situation further, the AHC proclaimed a three-day nationwide strike to begin the following day. It enforced the closure of all Arab shops, schools and places of business and organised and incited large Arab crowds to take to the streets to attack Jewish targets.

"The main such attack took place in Jerusalem on Tuesday 2 December, when a crowd of several hundred Arabs ransacked the new Jewish commercial centre, lying opposite the Old City's walls, looting and burning shops and stabbing and stoning whoever they happened upon. A Hagana platoon that was rushed to the area to protect civilians was peremptorily stopped and disarmed by the British police, with 16 of its members arrested for illegal possession of weapons. Some of the confiscated weapons were later found on killed and captured Arab rioters. . . .

"On 4 December, some 120-150 armed Arabs attacked kibbutz Efal, on the outskirts of Tel-Aviv, in the first large-scale attempt to storm a Jewish settlement. Four days later a more audacious assault was launched when hundreds of armed Arabs attacked the Hatikva quarter in south Tel-Aviv. They were followed by scores of women, bags and sacks in hand, eager to ferry off the anticipated spoils. 'The scene was appalling,' recalled one of the Jewish defenders. 'Masses of Arabs were running towards the neighbourhood. Some of them carried torches while others fired on the fly. Behind them we saw flashes of fire from machine guns covering them as they ran amok.' By the time the British troops arrived at the scene, the Arabs had been forced into a hasty retreat, leaving behind some 70 dead." (pp. 28-30)

http://www.institutobrasilisrael.org/cms/assets/uploads/_BIBLIOTECA/_PDF/o-conflito-palestino-x-israelense/c9eda179ec7d807f21c0113482294bd0.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2XjtdEu1lgkfCPthaR4KjN0_NoxBeCqwIqM85PzSDRf0ewBRSE0RFEFfI

The Zionist violence during the civil war follows the initial Palestinian violence after the UN vote, as Karsh explains in the following section on page 31, and in fairness this context should be included. I have seen alt-right types use this article in a way that is arguably anti-Semitic, and they have no understanding of the chronology of events, and this article does not give it to them. 2601:240:E381:5DD0:B092:C2C:8132:3730 (talk) 22:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:53, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Did Zionism end in 1940

There have not been any acts of Zionist political violence since the time of the Israeli War of Independence in 1948, after which the Lehi was disbanded.

Can I get a source on that?Kuiet (talk) 00:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Of course there is no source because the statement is complete bullshit. Zero 04:53, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Would you join me in correcting it and by consequence the whole article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuiet (talk • contribs) 13:56, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
the point IMO is that the article seems to have been written in the context of the Zionist program to establish a state of Israel. This program came to fruition in 1948 and thenceforth the need for active promotion of a Jewish state disappeared, together with the rationale of 'Zionist' terrorist groups. At a possibly later date, someone has added the assertion to the lead that 'Zionist terrorism' continues to the present day, without providing any detail in the article.
The truth appears to be that a minority of Jewish settlers in the disputed West Bank/Judea and Samaria carry out sporadic acts of violence and vandalism against local Arab targets - as do the Arabs against Jewish targets. It seems overblown to describe this as Zionist terrorism unless Arab attacks are described as antisemitic terrorism.
The remedy IMO is to remove references to post-1948 from this article, and place any encyclopedic material in an article on inter-communal disturbances in Israel post-1948, which may already exist. There are plenty of examples to go on. Chrismorey (talk) 15:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Cave of the patriarchs massacre

This page seems to be missing many entries. For example the cave of the patriarchs massacre is not here Iverinc (talk) 10:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

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