| Revision as of 20:02, 15 October 2023 editBD2412 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, IP block exemptions, Administrators2,448,952 edits Notification: listing of Judaism and terrorism at WP:Redirects for discussion.Tag: Twinkle← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:12, 24 October 2024 edit undoעמית לונן (talk | contribs)83 edits →King David Hotel bombing: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Reply |
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{{WikiProject Judaism |class=C |importance=Mid}} |
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|date=13 August 2008 |result='''keep''' |page=Jewish terrorism |
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== In reference to Jewish Zealotry of the 1st Century == |
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== Requested move 25 February 2023 == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Not moved''' - Consensus that "Jewish" indicates both an ethnicity and a religion, and so disambiguation is necessary. There's a further dicsussion to be had about content but that can be dealt with through ordinary editing <small>(])</small> ] (]) 13:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC) |
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---- |
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] → {{no redirect|Jewish terrorism}} – Eliminating tautology, per ], and aligning the title with ],], etc. ] (]) 12:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC) <small>''This is a contested technical request'' (]). ] (]) 12:47, 25 February 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 18:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*<s>'''Support''' per nom. ] (]) 23:42, 25 February 2023 (UTC) </s> |
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*: Change my vote to '''Oppose''' per the arguments below regarding Jews being an ethnoreligious group, not just a religious one like Muslims or Christians.--] (]) 01:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Strong oppose''' - the nom implies that Jews are equivalent to Muslims and Christians, which is not true, as Jews are an ethnoreligious group, both an ethnicity and a religion. --- <span style="font-family: 'Verdana';"><span style="color:red"><span style="font-size:120%">'''Tbf69'''</span></span></span> ] • ] 18:58, 26 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*:Then 'religious' is just a misnomer, because it's 'ethnoreligious' terrorism - same result. ] (]) 03:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*::The page, in any case, carries a blend of religiously and politically oriented terror. ] (]) 03:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion, meaning that the title is not a tautology but instead clarifying which the article is referring to; we cannot omit it per ]. This is also why we cannot have consistency with the titles of ] and ]. |
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:We also have no articles titled " terrorism"; per ] and ] we shouldn't make an exception here. ] (]) 13:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::@]: If you go through the examples in the article, you will actually find that it is as much if not more about about Jewish nationalist terror as it is anything related to 'religious' terror. Perhaps my opening comment was incorrect and 'Jewish ethnoreligious terrorism' would have been tautology. As it stands, it is simply a misnomer, since it starts from the 'political and religious movement' of the zealots, and moves through purely political movements such as ] and ], and onto settler violence. ] (]) 16:17, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I think Jewish nationalist terror is primarily covered by ]; we don't need to duplicate that content here. |
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:::We also don't name other examples of nationalist terrorism after the ethnicity of those engaged in it; we don't have articles called ], ], ], or ]. Making an exception here is not a good idea. ] (]) 16:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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::::@]: Ok, but since the content already is what it is here, and, in your opinion, duplicated, if you do not think the name should change, are you saying the scope should be narrowed? Which of the elements on this page would you actually host here? And how, in the case of an ethnic religion, is one to clearly distinguish between religious, political and specifically nationalist terrorism (as opposed to simply 'Jewish terrorism'), when they are all so intricately bound up and interlinked? ] (]) 17:19, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::Keep religiously motivated elements here, split off nationalist motivated ones. Elements that involve both motivations are more difficult, but that isn't a problem unique to this article and can be resolved. ] (]) 18:07, 4 March 2023 (UTC) |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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== Requested move 4 September 2023 == |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.'' |
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Seems disconnected from the rest of article. Perhaps section should be moved somewhere else? Most of article is in reference to Jewish terrorism of the 20th and 21 century. ] (]) 19:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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'''Moved as proposed'''. After much-extended time for discussion, there is a clear consensus for a move away from the current title. The preferred move target is somewhat hazier, but a majority of those participating prefer the proposed "extremist". ] ] 19:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:It's supported by the book "a brief history of terrorism", so that's why. ] (]) 20:26, 5 November 2023 (UTC) |
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] → {{no redirect|Jewish extremist terrorism}} – Terrorism is not a consequence of “religious” views, but rather of extremist views. An entire religion should not be associated with terrorism, but only the extremists within it. The proposed title meets the '''precision''' test in ] and complies with ] much better than the current title. There seems to be strong support in an ongoing discussion on the ] talk-page for changing that title to ], and we should make similar move requests for ], ], etc.. ] (]) 18:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC) <small>— '''''Relisting.''''' ] <sup>(]) </sup> 00:31, 13 September 2023 (UTC)</small> |
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== Hebrew Article Photo == |
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*'''Support:''' per the above and the first sentence of the which defines the subject as terrorism by "extremists within Judaism", and considering the important point that almost all terrorism is on some level partly political, so purely "religious terrorism" is a bit of a misnomer and practically non-existent in practice. The actual examples on this page are deeply entwined with politics. ] (]) 19:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' I think arguments above and in ongoing discussions at ] have shown some consensus for these these sorts of changes. ]<sup>]</sup> 01:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' --06:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC)--] (]) |
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*'''Support''' Existing title is unusual/strange. There's many ways to interpret "religious terrorism" - does it mean motivated by religious belief or terrorising the religion of others? Unclear and fails CRIT Naturalness. Proposed title is clear and straightforward. ] (]) 10:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::Actually, it's not clear and straightforward. Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing religion from the title. Maybe religion is wrong, but that's another matter. ] (]) 00:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Move to ]''' per ] for consistency with ]. And per ], as all terrorists are, by definition, extremists. Which makes "extremist terrorism" redundant. ] (]) 04:16, 8 September 2023 (UTC) ] (]) 04:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*:If a consensus supports this proposed move, I'll propose a similar move from ] to ] and from ] to ]. Per ] we should not associate terrorism generally with a religious group or ethnicity, but only with an extreme wing of it. NPOV is a core policy, whereas ] is not. ] (]) 05:35, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*::Agreed. I think it would be premature to go on a spree of move requests when you don't know the outcome here. ]<sup>]</sup> 05:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*:We need to consider this aspect also: Both religious terrorism and extremist terrorism involve the use of violence for ideological purposes, the key distinction lies in the primary motivation and targets. Religious terrorism is driven by religious beliefs and often targets those perceived as threats to those beliefs, while extremist terrorism can be rooted in various ideologies and may have a broader range of targets. It's important to note that not all religious individuals or extremist groups engage in terrorism, and the majority of religious and extremist movements are non-violent. --] (]) 06:28, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*::The latter point is not a source of confusion; these articles ''are'' about terrorism, not about non-violent extremists. To the first point I would reiterate that "]" is itself a disputed term. The more NPOV synonym for terrorism is "political violence", and the reason for this is that the word terrorism contains the sense of violence for political ends. Political violence by groups with religious sympathies is still political violence; why they might be inspired by religious ideology (in the same way that domestic terrorism might be inspired by xenophobia), the end result is still violence with a political goal - making a political statement, changing the conversation or public opinion, intimidating political opponents or attempting to effect the structures of government themselves. In contrast, it is hard to think of an example of something that might be construed as ''pure'' "religious terrorism" without some sort of political end. On this page, the Zealots explicitly instigated a rebellion against Rome; it was political in the extreme. ] (]) 07:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Move to ]'''. I'm in agreement with the consistency and concision point sraised by Rreagan007. The status quo has the modifier "religious" which serves little purpose, unless there's more ethnically but non-religiously Jewish terrorism out there than I'm aware of. The proposed modifier "extremist" is redundant to "terrorism". I'm sympathetic to NightHeron's view on needing to associate terrorist acts with the extremists, not whole religions, but this is the job of the articles and leads, not the titles. I suppose we could have a discussion about moving all "X terrorism" to "X extremist terrorism", but I don't think it'll help. ] (] / ]) 13:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': Note that a move request to ] was discussed in the previous thread earlier this year and failed to get consensus. ] (]) 02:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Move to ]''' per ], there is already ] and ]. Or, potentially as pointed out in the lead of the ] article, that's not a good term and we could rename them all "X extremist terrorism". We should probably consider these three things and their associated list articles etc together. But for now I'd say ] takes precedence before that discussion takes place ] (]) 15:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
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Hi folks. Can someone add this photo to the article which is in the Hebrew language article(https://he.wikipedia.org/%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C)?: |
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*'''Suggestion.''' I'm not sure I agree with the new name, but the current name definitely needs some work. I can see the merit behind specifying "religious", however, as some might make a distinction between their race/ethnonationalism and their religious practices which is somewhat unique to the demographic. However, this might only be necessary to prevent confusion with another potential "Jewish racial terrorism" page which I don't think exists. Maybe ]? not sure. However, it is interesting that this page is called "political violence". As you suggest, "terrorist" is not very neutral and probably should be replaced with "extremist" or something. ] (]) 17:10, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Move to "Jewish terrorism"''' per MarkiPoli. Either way, the current title is clearly not consistent with the other religious terrorism articles, nor is it neutral. ] ] 01:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per ]]. ~~] (]<span style="color:55a7db">|</span>]) 04:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' per ] |
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:--] (]) 12:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC) |
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https://he.wikipedia.org/%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%93%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C#/media/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:Shfaramsqr.jpg |
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:'''Oppose''' Given that Jewishness is both a religion and an ancestry, we are removing clarity by removing "religious" from the title. Maybe "religious" is wrong, but that's another matter that is being avoided here. ] (]) 00:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
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Thanks.] (]) 04:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== ] == |
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:'''Comment''': "religious" ''is'' the wrong word, since the terrorists are not necessarily particularly religious, and it is often nationalism (toward Israel) or hatred (toward Palestinians) that motivates them. In the article title we should not be suggesting that a high degree of religiosity correlates with terrorism. What is undeniable is that extremism correlates with terrorism, which is why I suggested at the top of this thread that the word "religious" be replaced by "extremist". ] (]) 00:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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Is there any reason why this terrorist bombing isn't mentioned in the article? '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== the picture == |
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:It is my understanding from the introduction of this article that it concerns religious-motivated terrorism,and the bombing of the King David Hotel is more of a nationalist character than a religious one. ] (]) 19:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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the picture is fucked up. can someone change it? ] (]) 19:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::The articles name is "Jewish extremist terrorism" and the lead states "Jewish extremist terrorism is terrorism, including religious terrorism, committed by extremists within Judaism". The lead only states that religious terrorism is included, not that other forms of terrorism are excluded. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:What picture? ] (]) 22:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::That what appears from the categories and templates in which this article is included. |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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:::A ] concerning the more national or ethnic character of Jewish political violence/terrorism is in existence,in which the incident is addressed. |
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] |
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:::] (]) 11:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 15#Judaism and terrorism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] ] 20:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Thanks for pointing that article out to me. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Most welcome ] (]) 23:12, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
Seems disconnected from the rest of article. Perhaps section should be moved somewhere else? Most of article is in reference to Jewish terrorism of the 20th and 21 century. Homerethegreat (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
