| Revision as of 15:19, 28 December 2014 edit2.245.120.30 (talk) →Map: new section← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 20:41, 27 October 2024 edit undo130.238.112.129 (talk) →nynorsk 2012: new sectionTag: New topic | ||
| (85 intermediate revisions by 37 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| {{Skip to talk}} | {{Skip to talk}} | ||
| {{Talk header|search=yes}} | {{Talk header|search=yes}} | ||
| ⚫ | {{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|vital=yes|1= | ||
| ⚫ | <!-- please do not remove this tag --> | ||
| ⚫ | {{WikiProject Norway |importance=Top}} | ||
| {{AutoArchivingNotice | |||
| {{WikiProject Languages|importance=Low}} | |||
| |small=no | |||
| |age=90 | |||
| |index=./Archive index | |||
| |bot=MiszaBot I}} | |||
| {{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= | |||
| ⚫ | {{WikiProject |
||
| ⚫ | {{WikiProject |
||
| }} | }} | ||
| ⚫ | <!-- please do not remove this tag --> | ||
| {{User:WildBot/m04|sect={{User:WildBot/m03|2|Comparison#In grammar|comparison}}|m04}} | |||
| {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn | {{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn | ||
| |target=Talk:Norwegian language/Archive index | |target=Talk:Norwegian language/Archive index | ||
| Line 26: | Line 21: | ||
| }} | }} | ||
| == mitt tilbaketrukne tannkjøtt == | |||
| == How much do Bokmål and Nynorsk differ? == | |||
| A lot of articles talk about the language situation and how different people prefer different standards. But so far I haven't been able to find any information about how much they have in common. Going just by vocabulary (perhaps only the more common words one would find in a newspaper), what percentage of words is shared between the two? ] (]) 23:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC) | |||
| :What does it mean that a word is shared between them? Are ''kyrkje'' and ''kirke'' the same word, although they are written differently? In some cases, though not in this, different forms like this are both allowed in either or both written standards. While not exactly what you ask for, and completely unsourced, what I as a bokmål writer remember for learning to write nynorsk was to avoid all ''be-'' og ''-het'' words (there were possibly some more). These came from German and were/are therefore shunned by hardcore proponents of nynorsk. Words of Norse origin still preserved in bokmål will most likely be shared with nynorsk, though possibly with quite different spelling, but probably not the other way around due to bokmål's greater foreign influence. ] (]) 20:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC) | |||
| really? this is delightful and brings a smile to my face, but there is a reason language 101 exposition confines itself to things like "the boy's football" and "my brown suitcase" and the like. ] (]) 09:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| If, as the article says, Bokmål and Nynorsk are written languages, how can the article also say that NRK broadcasts in these languages? Broadcasters must perforce use spoken forms of the language, albeit in a variety of dialects. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:49, 7 November 2012 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :Maybe this sort of graphic detail is peculiar to the Nordic languages. A reading in a 1945 Icelandic grammar: "What were the children doing? They were playing. In the classroom was a table; on the table were papers, ink, and pens. On the wall were maps and pictures of animals. There was a picture of a raven pecking a lamb's eyes out. ..." (Stefán Einarsson, ''Icelandic: grammar, texts, glossary'', The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1945.) ] (]) 11:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| ::It may be that we have a taste for the macabre in the Nordic countries, but I do find it an odd example. I don't see what value it adds either. There is already an example for the neuter gender. An example with plural is missing, but that might perhaps require some more explanation. An example with the feminine gender is also missing, although that would look identical to the masculine example, so one can not tell if it actually is an example of feminine, as that is an optional grammatical gender in Bokmål. ] (]) 17:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC) | |||
| == Map of norway needs fixing == | |||
| :They seem to use the "dialect" formed from reading the written standards more or less as they are written. Since nynorsk is based on dialects from almost all over the country, this "dialect" is artificial, while for bokmål, you more or less get the eastern upper class dialect/sociolect/koiné bokmål was based on. This requirement is apparently no longer as strict as it once probably was. Ingerid Stenvold won a price in 2007 for her persistence in using her own dialect. ] (]) 16:32, 7 November 2012 (UTC) | |||
| ::In the past, people in NRK had to choose between a standardized spoken bokmål or standardized spoken nynorsk. While the first is similar (or the same) as the standard dialect of the Oslo West End, the latter were more or less an artificial creation. These days everyone are allowed to use their own dialects freely. But, even though much of the communication done by radio and TV are done orally, there's still plenty of written communication (like through subtitles, placards on TV, text TV, and lately the internet).] (]) 11:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| Bokmål is Norwegianised Danish, while Nynorsk is based on Norwegian dialects, but with a somewhat conservative vocabulary. --] (]) 06:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The zoomed in map showing the spread of norwegian features Jan Mayen (1) outside of the text box and (2) in the middle of Libya. There are (presumptively) no norwegian speakers in the middle of Libya. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:34, 4 February 2022 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| == Variant Generally Taught to Foreign Students == | |||
| == Apparent error in Frysian example == | |||
| In the 'Phonology' section the following claim is made: "There is considerable variation among the dialects, but the variant generally taught to foreign students is Standard Østnorsk." What's the basis for this claim? I'd assume that what dialect is taught depend on the dialect of the teacher, and where the student learns the language. Granted, most foreigners learning Norwegian in Norway probably learn it in or around Oslo where Standard Østnorsk is the norm, but that's incidental. ] (]) 12:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Finding a good reliable source spelling this out directly may be difficult. The incidental angle might be the point here, but I guess it's also common for languages to be taught in the spoken form closest to the written form. From my impressions, there has also not been a tradition in Norway for teaching dialects in schools, or even using dialects in government institutions. While the latter is not as strict as it used to be, a then new news anchor on NRK recently had to ask for permission to speak in her own dialect, though dialects have been freely used in every other program for some time. Standard Østnorsk works as a sociolect, as well as something of a dialect. ] (]) 16:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::"Standard Eastern Norwegian" is a misnomer, it has no real definition (paradoxically enough for something that is supposed to be a "standard"). It's a term that should be avoided. | |||
| ::I also sincerely doubt that central eastern phonology would be applied by people outside of the central part of Eastern Norway. As an example, someone from ] will most likely use rather than for the letter r when pronouncing Bokmål. --] (]) 18:04, 18 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::Bergen is perhaps a bad example, as they have never been under the impression that their dialect is inferior to "Standard Østnorsk". In fact, I think the Bergen dialect fits Bokmål about as good as the Oslo dialect, and certainly more so than most eastern dialects. However, phonology isn't the main thing that differentiates Norwegian dialects. As long as one pronounce the words as written in Bokmål, much of the the characteristics of one's dialect will be lost. However, there seems to be a assumption is this discussion that the teacher is from, or even in, Norway. The statement in the article may also refer to students outside Norway learning Norwegian from non-Norwegian teachers. That teacher may in turn never have been exclusively exposed to a particular Norwegian dialect. ] (]) 20:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Note that this information was found in the ''Phonology'' section, as pointed out by Josnyg, so phonology is what I had in mind. It is also found in the lead, but there the context is different and so it seems to be correct. --] (]) 09:14, 19 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Ah, yes. I missed that part. If so, then there is a source for that claim on the article about Norwegian phonology. I don't know what that source says, though. ] (]) 15:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think that claim must be incorrect. It would be nice if someone had access to the book ''The Phonology of Norwegian'' (2007) so that we could find out what it actually says. --] (]) 08:20, 20 August 2013 (UTC) | |||
| The current article contains: | |||
| == Introduction length == | |||
| ”De reinbôge hat in protte kleuren” | |||
| It is quite clear that the introduction by far exceeds its tolerable length. It is suggested to shift the details of the dialects into the already existing paragraph "Dialects". ] (]) 07:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC) | |||
| in a table. I doubt it is correct Frysian, since - according to a couple of sources - “in” is a singular indefinite article whereas “kleuren” is a plural word. I suspect “in” needs to be removed. Can someone knowledgeable about the Frysian language confirm this?] (]) 15:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Islands and the Map == | |||
| :I removed it, because it was ] anyway, like the rest of that section. Seems to be a major problem in general with these linguistics articles, people just add content without citing verifiable sources. ] (]) 18:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC) | |||
| I wonder why the map includes Svalbard but not ]. Norwegian Law applies to Bouvet, so if anybody ever wanted to live there (current population zero), surely Norwegian would be the official language of the island? | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] (]) 04:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| :My guess is that it is to keep the map simple. If the map was extended to show Bouvet Island, it wouldn't be visible due to the scale. while an inset would lose the context. Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, the map shows where Norwegian is spoken, not where it is an offical language. (Although the minorities in North America shown in another map is left out.) It should also be mentioned that the correctness of the map in the infobox was recently questioned. ] (]) 12:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 1#Vikværsk}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ]]] 00:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == "]" listed at ] == | |||
| ] | |||
| The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 1#BokmaalAndNynorsk}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> <span style="border:1px solid;padding:2px 6px;font-variant:small-caps">'''〜 ] • ]'''</span> 06:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == nynorsk 2012 == | |||
| == The map over "Norwegian-speaking areas" == | |||
| The article reads: | |||
| I am wondering why a map in this article suggests that the Norwegian language is in a minority in the north of Norway, specifically Troms and Finnmark? Is it because of the Sami languages? | |||
| "Nynorsk still adheres to the 1959 standard." | |||
| While the Sami language is spoken mainly in the north, it is far from a majority language even in the northernmost parts of Norway. Less than 20 000 people in Norway can speak a Sami language, and an even lower number will have it as a native tongue. Furthermore, just seven municipalities in Troms and Finnmark (out of 43) have a Sami language as an official administrational language along with Norwegian. As far as I know, only two municipalities (Karasjok and Kautokeino) have a Sami majority. According to official statistics, there are 237 000 people living in Troms and Finnmark. Given that there are only just 20 000 Sami speakers in Norway, quite a few of whom do not live in Troms and Finnmark, Norwegian cannot be close to a minority language. | |||
| but the article at | |||
| By all means, the Sami language is an official language in Norway and should be respected as such. The Sami language are very much present in certain parts of the northern half of Norway. However, Norwegian is not at all a minority language in Northern Norway, and the map should reflect this. | |||
| https://en.wikipedia.org/Nynorsk | |||
| It is also confusing to claim that there are "Norwegian-speaking minorities" in Sweden. It is true that the dialects in the light blue areas are closely (and historicaly) linked to Norwegian dialects - but I don't think any of the people living there today consider themselves to be (or speak) Norwegian. | |||
| writes about | |||
| In my opinion the map should be totaly removed: It is more confusing than informative. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 21:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| :I agree and I removed it. ] (]) 21:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| "the 2012 language revision" | |||
| == Map == | |||
| Could any of you clarify? Thanks! ] (]) 20:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 20:41, 27 October 2024
| Skip to table of contents |
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Norwegian language article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 3 months  |
 | This  level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||
mitt tilbaketrukne tannkjøtt
really? this is delightful and brings a smile to my face, but there is a reason language 101 exposition confines itself to things like "the boy's football" and "my brown suitcase" and the like. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:484F:92D0:543:F7A1 (talk) 09:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe this sort of graphic detail is peculiar to the Nordic languages. A reading in a 1945 Icelandic grammar: "What were the children doing? They were playing. In the classroom was a table; on the table were papers, ink, and pens. On the wall were maps and pictures of animals. There was a picture of a raven pecking a lamb's eyes out. ..." (Stefán Einarsson, Icelandic: grammar, texts, glossary, The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1945.) Largoplazo (talk) 11:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- It may be that we have a taste for the macabre in the Nordic countries, but I do find it an odd example. I don't see what value it adds either. There is already an example for the neuter gender. An example with plural is missing, but that might perhaps require some more explanation. An example with the feminine gender is also missing, although that would look identical to the masculine example, so one can not tell if it actually is an example of feminine, as that is an optional grammatical gender in Bokmål. Ters (talk) 17:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Map of norway needs fixing
The zoomed in map showing the spread of norwegian features Jan Mayen (1) outside of the text box and (2) in the middle of Libya. There are (presumptively) no norwegian speakers in the middle of Libya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.128.97 (talk) 19:34, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
Apparent error in Frysian example
The current article contains:
”De reinbôge hat in protte kleuren”
in a table. I doubt it is correct Frysian, since - according to a couple of sources - “in” is a singular indefinite article whereas “kleuren” is a plural word. I suspect “in” needs to be removed. Can someone knowledgeable about the Frysian language confirm this?Redav (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- I removed it, because it was WP:OR anyway, like the rest of that section. Seems to be a major problem in general with these linguistics articles, people just add content without citing verifiable sources. TylerBurden (talk) 18:08, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
"Vikværsk" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Vikværsk has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 1 § Vikværsk until a consensus is reached. 1234qwer1234qwer4 00:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
"BokmaalAndNynorsk" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect BokmaalAndNynorsk has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 1 § BokmaalAndNynorsk until a consensus is reached. 〜 Festucalex • talk 06:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
nynorsk 2012
The article reads:
"Nynorsk still adheres to the 1959 standard."
but the article at
https://en.wikipedia.org/Nynorsk
writes about
"the 2012 language revision"
Could any of you clarify? Thanks! 130.238.112.129 (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Categories:- C-Class level-5 vital articles
- Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
- C-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
- C-Class Norway articles
- Top-importance Norway articles
- WikiProject Norway articles
- C-Class language articles
- Low-importance language articles
- WikiProject Languages articles