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Latest revision as of 12:28, 28 October 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,292,502 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:William S. Burroughs/Archive 3) (bot |
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== Inconsistencies == |
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How does a man who attended Harvard at 18 drop out nearly ten years later to attempt to join the Navy and/or OSS? The intro needs a re-work. |
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Yes! Excatly! I read he dropped out on and off over the course of twenty years or so! Then I also read he spent the next twenty years as a drop out! |
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== Wording of Vollmer's death == |
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I made this change earlier thinking it to be a fairly uncontroversial improvement, but it got reverted, so I should explain my reasoning. |
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== the apolitical outlook of burroughs == |
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When Vollmer was killed, Lewis Marker and Eddie Woods were present, while several others were nearby in the apartment but were not eye witnesses. (See Ted Morgan in Literary Outlaw: The Life and Times of William S. Burroughs, and Barry Miles in Call Me Burroughs (working off research from Burroughs's friend and manager James Grauerholz)). As I understand it, there are two main sources for the notion that Burroughs told Vollmer, "It's about time for our William Tell act." Burroughs seems to have initially told reporters this (El Nacional 7 September 1951). Lewis Marker gives the same version to Ted Morgan. The other eyewitness, Eddie Woods, denies having heard it, and Burroughs also denied it to the police. In Burroughs's 1965 Knickerbocker interview, Burroughs again denies having said it. |
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i get the feeling comments on burroughs politics are made by people that have not actually read his work, at least with any genuine interest. he was more interested in the visual arts, poetry, literature, the occult, science, then any kind of coherent political stance. what is said on this page is conjecture based on other things he has said that were not intrinsically political. |
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But whether or not he said it is fundamentally a bit of a distraction. NPOV requires we pick our words carefully and don't give undue weight or authority to sources which cannot be independently verified, and which by their nature have a very strong personal interest in conveying a particular version of events. What's absolutely crucial is that even were such testimony were consistent and plausible, it does not get you to the position where you can imply that Joan Vollmer was a willing participant. The present wording of the article carries that connotation. There has never been any suggestion that Vollmer gave her express uncoerced consent. Even if she had verbally agreed to the suggestion, this would not constitute express uncoerced consent, because Vollmer was at gunpoint. |
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he never espoused coherent political convictions. the vague conjectures of him being to the right is not consistent with other things he has said, like his dislike of philistinism, bourgeois ethics, orthodoxy, consumer culture. he was always subversive. he was more philosophical than political, more interested in the bigger human questions not so much on what the right policy. although anyone from 1960 reading this would be in disbelief as at the time nixon was crusading the drug war, etc. ] (]) 02:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC) |
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Finally, even were we somehow satisfied that Vollmer was an enthusiastic participant, that would not get you to the position where you can say without qualification that Burroughs "accidentally" killed Vollmer. It does not even get you to the position where you can say that Burroughs deliberately risked Vollmer's life by firing a gun near her head while drunk, since we can't know for certain whether Burroughs perhaps simply intended to murder Joan Vollmer. What we can certainly say is what we know with a very high degree of confidence, attested by multiple sources: William Burroughs killed Joan Vollmer with a pistol. We can then say what Burroughs said to the reporters, and what he said to the court. |
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:I disagree that Burroughs was 'to the right' also, but I think it would be a mistake in general to try to describe him as 'right wing', 'left wing', or even apolitical, and that a lot of things that he did hold interest and write on were intrinsically political. As politics are concerned when writing about Burroughs I think the take in this article should be to only discuss specific things that have been said instead of trying to attribute any over arching view. ]] 17:35, 22 January 2023 (UTC) |
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== Influence on popular culture == |
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For Misplaced Pages, this is not about finding out what really happened. Nor is it about placing it in the historical context of similar events and how they were subsequently recorded and reported. It is about choosing words in a way which does not uncritically elevate legend to fact. |
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Burroughs is frequently referenced, sometimes explicitly, in popular culture and there seems to be no mention of it in this article. To begin with, there are numerous band names - Steely Dan, Soft Machine, and numerous others that are Burroughs references. The term "Blade Runner" also has its origins in Burroughs work, albeit, it had a very different meaning from what the scriptwriters of the film turned it into. Nevertheless, if I'm not mistaken, some royalties had to be paid to Burroughs for use of the name. In addition, Burroughs seems to have had some role in coining the term "Heavy Metal", though he wasn't referring to a musical genre. I think this topic merits a subsection under "Legacy". ] (]) 19:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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] (]) 11:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC) |
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i get the feeling comments on burroughs politics are made by people that have not actually read his work, at least with any genuine interest. he was more interested in the visual arts, poetry, literature, the occult, science, then any kind of coherent political stance. what is said on this page is conjecture based on other things he has said that were not intrinsically political.
he never espoused coherent political convictions. the vague conjectures of him being to the right is not consistent with other things he has said, like his dislike of philistinism, bourgeois ethics, orthodoxy, consumer culture. he was always subversive. he was more philosophical than political, more interested in the bigger human questions not so much on what the right policy. although anyone from 1960 reading this would be in disbelief as at the time nixon was crusading the drug war, etc. Shhsbavavaa (talk) 02:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Burroughs is frequently referenced, sometimes explicitly, in popular culture and there seems to be no mention of it in this article. To begin with, there are numerous band names - Steely Dan, Soft Machine, and numerous others that are Burroughs references. The term "Blade Runner" also has its origins in Burroughs work, albeit, it had a very different meaning from what the scriptwriters of the film turned it into. Nevertheless, if I'm not mistaken, some royalties had to be paid to Burroughs for use of the name. In addition, Burroughs seems to have had some role in coining the term "Heavy Metal", though he wasn't referring to a musical genre. I think this topic merits a subsection under "Legacy". Peter G Werner (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
