| Revision as of 04:01, 29 November 2019 editJingiby (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers62,125 editsm →Slovenia and the Balkans← Previous edit |
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* '''All sections should be a summary of more detailed articles'''. If you find any points missing, please add it in the section's main article rather than on this page to keep this page size within reasonable limits. |
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* '''All sections should be a summary of more detailed articles'''. If you find any points missing, please add it in the section's main article rather than on this page to keep this page size within reasonable limits. |
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== A better map? == |
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== Italian War Crimes during Italian Fascist Occupation of Slovenia 1941-1943 and the change of British policy towards their persecution due to the possibility of Italian communists winning the 1946 general election == |
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Foreign Office (i.e. British civil authority, but not the military) policy was indeed '''initially''', as you say, in favor of 'hand-over' of the Italian war criminals, but the British and American '''military authorities''' in Italy were against it (p.520)<ref name="Pedaliu_JContHistory">] (2004) . Journal of Contemporary History. Vol. 39, No. 4, Special Issue: Collective Memory, pp. 503-529 (JStor.org full article)</ref>, but the Foreign Office changed its policy (ibid., p.523), too, when in 1946 the possibility was that '''Italian communists''' would win the Italian general election, which would open Italy to Soviet influence, so they decided to drop the case and let Italy do the job (ibid., p.526) resulting in the (highly indicative) fate of Graziani and Roatta (ibid., p.525). The British '''concern to secure''' the electoral victory of the '''Christian Democrats''' "prompted Britain to '''drop all of its war crimes claims against Italy'''" (ibid., p.527). See the screenshots from the scholarly article via JStor.org</br> |
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–– <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 11:18 9 October 2015 (UTC)</small> |
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== Slovenia and the Balkans == |
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Its part south of ] belongs to the Balkan peninsula – i.e. Southeastern Europe. ] (]) 17:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC) |
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The clearest maps in thus article are one from the grim years of WWII and another of the climate zones with temperature charts included. The map of statistical regions is good but by design it lacks city names. I think it would improve the article to have a map showing major cities (especially Ljubljana) and showing enough of the neighboring nations to place it in Europe. I have seen such a map in the past, but cannot find it online now. |
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:The Balkan peninsula and the Southeastern Europe are in no way synonyms - the Balkan peninsula is a colloquial historical term for countries that were once dominions of the Ottoman Empire (until its eventual and gradual collapse in the second half of the 19. century). Thus, the Balkans is not merely a geographical term (with very loosely, if at all defined borders), but above all a cultural term that does indeed share some similarities with the definition of the Balkan peninsula. It is thereby unacceptable to reject differentiation between the SE Europe and the Balkans the way you have, and further so to establish Slovenia's location be part of the aforementioned entity solely based on the misunderstanding of the latter. At this point, it is paramount to touch upon the fact that the European Union considers in its definition the countries of the Western Balkans (the only definition of the Balkans provided in the international law) to be Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of North Macedonia, Kosovo, Montenegro and Serbia for the purposes related to identification of the candidates for the ascension to the Union . Slovenia was never considered to be part of the South East due to its strong cultural ties to the north, the fact mirrored in the International Geographic Union definition of the country as an entity exclusively within the boundaries of Central Europe (as defined at the 1994 Congress held in Prague). That is reinforced by the definition provided by the CIA World Factbook . It is thereby irresponsible to single-handedly alter an established definition by counterparting it with one comprising the broadest existent term of the Southeastern Europe that entirely disregards the historic specifics of Slovenia, as well as directly contradicts major international standards and definitions that have seen unanimous application since the collapse of Yugoslavia (that aberrated the set definitions of the country's position within Europe for the period of forty-six years between 1945 and 1991 based upon the allegiance to the socialist federation of states formerly enthralled to the Ottoman Empire - see the initial claim on the top). The definition you provided (Encyclopedia Britannica) is for that reason unsuitable, largely due to its own uncertainty over the definition - it provides no clear boundaries of the region itself, resorting to approximations and allegations of too abstract a nature to provide any concrete determination (even contradicting itself several times, exempli gratia the uncertainty over the definition of Southeastern Europe and the Western Balkans - the latter deriving from the legal basis of the European Union above). It is for that same reason of uncertainty that I deem it inappropriate to regard Slovenia as a part of SE Europe as the region is, as stems from the sources above, too grossly undefined to serve as a criterium for the country's geographical position that was defined with far greater certainty by several other sources (also provided above) which contradict its placement in the South East (and even wholly neglect it), instead placing it solely in Central Europe (that is also the view adopted by every other language version of the article on Slovenia on Misplaced Pages). --] (]) 21:29, 23 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::The real reason in Slovenia to dispute that part of its territory falls geographically on the Balkans is political and cultural. It is a Slovenian complex and striving not to be identified with the Balkans but with Central Europe. However Misplaced Pages is a place for scientific knowledge. This issue is described well in the book by D. Norris "In the Wake of the Balkan Myth: Questions of Identity and Modernity", publisher: Springer, 1999; ISBN 0230286534, on p. as follows: ''Geographically speaking, the River Sava, one of the acknowledged markers of the northern limit of the Balkans, flows by the northern edge of Slovenia's capital city Ljubljana. However, there exists a Slovenian mental map of former Yugoslavia in which they were in the north, and everyone in the south is in the Balkans.'' That is the real issue, not the geography. ] (]) 04:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::There are many sources that include Slovenia in SE Europe, so I don't see an issue with saying that in the article. Including Slovenia in the Balkans is a bit of a stretch, but I don't see that in the article currently, so it seems like that's a non-issue at the moment. ] (]) 04:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::::The issue with Slovenia is explained also in the book by Zeljko Šević Banking Reforms in South-East Europe, New horizons in money and finance, Edward Elgar Publishing, 2002; ISBN 1781959560, as follows: ''In part in response to the break-up of the former Yugoslav Federation, a more fashionable term 'South-East European countries' has emerged in the 1990s, covering the Balkan states (plus Slovenia).'', i.e. Slovenia is undoubtedly a South-East European country and is located partially on the Balkans, per above citation. ] (]) 05:23, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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The map in the info box serves mainly to show it is a small nation. Reading that map, it pays to know that already, to find the dark green bit that is Slovenia. |
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There is nothing "scientific" about a word like Balkans. It's just a label. Originally Ottoman Europe, including Greece -- but Greece is seldom included in the Balkans today. Originally not including Slovenia, but later it did, because Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia. But arguing about whether it "is" or "isn't" is futile. You can say that it is/isn't per the definition of the Council of Europe, or National Geographic, or whatever, but absent an agreed international definition, a simple claim one way or the other is meaningless. Also, per our Balkans article, just part of Slovenia is included in the definition they prefer (and outline on the map), which means at best (worst?), Slovenia's on the northern fringe. — ] (]) 05:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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Overall, this is an excellent article on a nation with a thriving present and a long and fascinating past. - - ] (]) 18:53, 13 May 2023 (UTC) |
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"Western Balkans" is an EU neologism, but it does exclude Slovenia. The CIA site classifies it as Central European, as does our ] article. I've always seen Slovenia as Central European. It may be that they're trying to distance themselves from the Balkans, but so what? The word doesn't have any set meaning anyway. — ] (]) 05:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:Slovenia may be classified today as part of Central Europe by political reasons, but geographically 25% from its territory lays in Southeast Europe, i.e. on the Balkans. Look the article ] itself, please. Moreover, in the past it was classified during Yugoslav era as part of the Balkans also by political reasons. The geographical criteria is the most accurate and indisputable: Slovenia is simultaneously Central European and Southeast European country. This NPOV stays now in this article. Keep in mind Balkans and Southeast Europe are synonyms and Southeast Europe is an euphemism designed to conceal the controversial term ''Balkans''. ] (]) 06:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::PS. ], "Western Balkans" does not exclude Slovenia. Check for example here please: Gianluca Passarelli, The Presidentialisation of Political Parties in the Western Balkans, Springer, 2018, ISBN 3319973525, on Table 1 The freedom Country Ranking ranking of the Western Balkans countries (2017), Slovenia is mentioned as # 1 in the table. ] (]) 06:35, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Is that the EU definition, or just a synonym for ex-Yugoslavia? |
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:::Saying Slovenia is 25% in the Balkans -- by whose definition? These regions don't have precise boundaries. |
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:::Other classifications have Slovenia in Eastern Europe. The UN places it in Southern Europe, along with Italy. There is no "is" here. — ] (]) 06:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::::On a contrary, the Balkans have a clear boundary there and that is River Sava, just look above: ''Geographically speaking, the ], one of the acknowledged markers of the northern limit of the Balkans, flows by the northern edge of Slovenia's capital city Ljubljana.'' ] (] |
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:::::A part of Slovenia is within the Balkans and the content will remain in the article - because it is a fact. Please do not edit war. ''']''' ] 18:55, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::Wrong. Balkans (and for that matter neither SE Europe) does not have any precise boundaries, the fact I provided above, as well as the reasons your citation of Encyclopedia Britannica is unsuitable. The sum of the aforementioned reasons (also outlined by Kwamikagami) is the cause Slovenia has been placed exclusively in Central Europe for a period of over seventeen years on this site. Kwami's claim regarding Slovenia originally not being considered a part of the Balkans (that you equate with SE Europe) but being included in it due to political reasons (as per membership in Yugoslavia) in the past further validates my point, as does the fact that you consistently fail to provide any tangible evidence that would geographically classify Slovenia as being a part of SE Europe, instead (as noted below) referencing (often obscure) studies stemming from socio-political spheres that, due to either their age or generalisation, fail to provide a sufficient insight into the subject. |
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:::::You seem to pursue your personal agenda by referencing dubious, contradicting sources - using POLITICAL and ECONOMICAL articles and books (that gravitate around the countries of ex-Yugoslavia from a political standpoint which is, as explained above, obsolete and incorrect - that generalisation was one of major reasons Yugoslavia collapsed in the first place) to support the broadest possible GEOGRAPHICAL term of the region (that is seldom even used today) is thereby unacceptable. --] (]) 19:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::{{ping|TU-nor}}, could you assist this debate per your experience? Thank You (] (]) 20:15, 24 November 2019 (UTC)) |
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<small>I was invited to comment by Jingiby.</small> The term Balkan doesn't even appear in the lead, so I'm not sure why this is a big deal. "Southeastern Europe" is certainly correct and should remain. ] (]) 23:15, 24 November 2019 (UTC) |
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I am adding this text as a wake-me-up call. ] (]) 19:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:<small>Thanks, {{u|KIENGIR}}, for the invitation. I am sorry that I have not answered before, but I have been out of Wiki-circulation for some days.</small> I am slightly confused about the title of this section, since there is not any mention of Balkan in the lede or in the "Geography" section that has been disputed. My comments will therefore not be about "the Balkans", but about the term "Southeastern Europe", which is not necessarily the same. |
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:In my opinion, we should be very careful when using the names of regions ("Central Europe", "Southeastern Europe", "Southern Europe" etc. or for that matter "the Balkans" or "Mediterranean Europe"). None of these regions are universally well-defined, and none of them are mutually exclusive. The terms are used (by reliable sources) with completely different meanings, making it nearly impossible to use them consistently without a lot of explanation. To say that Slovenia '''is''' in Southeastern Europe is questionable, but so is also to say that it '''is''' in Central Europe. To say that it {{tq|'''is''' in Central Europe and Southeastern Europe}} is just as hopeless, since that may be interpreted as if part of the country is in Central Europe and part in Southeastern Europe, which again would presuppose well-defined region borders. |
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:My suggestion for the lede is simply to remove the mention of regions altogether and say that it {{tq|is a country located at the crossroads of main European cultural and trade routes}}. The next sentence defines it precisely in relation to other states and the Adriatic. |
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:In the "Geography" section it may be more pertinent to mention Slovenia's regional position, but that could be done in ways that do not presuppose any cast-iron definition. One possibility is to say something like "variously defined as being part of CE and SEE" with a couple of high-quality sources for each. Another "trick" could be to decap the directional adjective and talk about "in the central part of Europe" without any linking to the regional article. --] (]) 20:19, 27 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::This is the last update of the article Balkans on Encyclopedia Britannica online, from the last week: ''Nov 19, 2019.'' Its authors are ], ] and John Allcock (former head, research unit in South East European studies, University of Bradford, England). In the article they have stated that increasingly in the early 21st century, another pair of denominational synonyms has gained currency and among them '''Southeastern Europe'''. It reads as follows: ''Balkans, also called Balkan Peninsula, easternmost of Europe’s three great southern peninsulas. There is not universal agreement on the region’s components. The Balkans are usually characterized as comprising Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Romania, Serbia, and '''Slovenia'''— with all or part of each of those countries located within the peninsula. Portions of Greece and Turkey are also located within the geographic region generally defined as the Balkan Peninsula, and many descriptions of the Balkans include those countries too... More often than not, '''Slovenia''' is included as a member of the Balkans because of its long historical ties with its neighbors to the southeast and because of its former incorporation in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes and federal Yugoslavia,'' etc. . ] (]) 07:30, 28 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:::By many, perhaps most, definitions of the Balkan peninsula, ''part of'' Slovenia is included, but again, it is ''not'' the geographical Balkans we are discussing here, but Southeast Europe. Also, in the same Britannica article it says about the term "Southeast Asia": {{tq|(though, again, without universal agreement on its component states)}}, which was rather my point. |
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:::Britannica is only one of many possible sources, but even if we stick to them, they also have an article about Slovenia. There the country is described as lying "in central Europe". Not "Central", not "Southeast", not even "southeast", just "central". Which, again, rather underlines my point. --] (]) 08:39, 28 November 2019 (UTC) |
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:Thank you for your input, T*U! I agree with everything you pointed out (our points of view seem to be very similar). I would be perfectly willing to accept the syntagm "Slovenia lies in the central part of Europe" in the basic description (as I believe it is to a point useful to provide certain geographical context - not everyone knows where the neighbouring countries are, for that matter - and that definition is perfectly aligned with the view adopted on Slovenia in other languages on this site as it is in every single one of them defined as being a part of Central Europe). Alternatively (albeit more controversially), I see no problem in Slovenia simply retaining the status of an exclusively Central European country (speaking of the hyperlink in the basic description) it has had for the past seventeen years in this article (reinforced by the aforementioned fact that in all other languages, Slovenia is defined solely as a part of Central Europe) - though I perfectly understand your objection to that specific definition. Greetings! --] (]) 20:07, 28 November 2019 (UTC) |
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::It is indisputable that geographically Slovenia is partially on the Balkans, and politically it is often described as part from Southeastern Europe. That must be mentioned in the article. Regards. ] (]) 04:01, 29 November 2019 (UTC) |
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The clearest maps in thus article are one from the grim years of WWII and another of the climate zones with temperature charts included. The map of statistical regions is good but by design it lacks city names. I think it would improve the article to have a map showing major cities (especially Ljubljana) and showing enough of the neighboring nations to place it in Europe. I have seen such a map in the past, but cannot find it online now.
The map in the info box serves mainly to show it is a small nation. Reading that map, it pays to know that already, to find the dark green bit that is Slovenia.
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
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