Misplaced Pages

Talk:Islamic terrorism: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 11:47, 24 April 2007 editMatt57 (talk | contribs)8,665 edits →External links section← Previous edit Revision as of 12:44, 24 April 2007 edit undoPelleSmith (talk | contribs)7,078 edits →External links sectionNext edit →
Line 77: Line 77:
:::::In regards to your point about terrorism you are completely wrong. We don't call a garden variety murderer a terrorist nor do we call the state of Texas (for example) a terrorist organization just because they perform death on others.] 03:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC) :::::In regards to your point about terrorism you are completely wrong. We don't call a garden variety murderer a terrorist nor do we call the state of Texas (for example) a terrorist organization just because they perform death on others.] 03:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
::::::Islam is also a well known POV issue. So you're saying if we divide the sections into the various POV's, then its ok? I'm going to go with the nice Abortion example you gave. Yes. Could you put back the links and divide them into the POV headings like abortion? Also, you should go around in all Islam articles and you'll see they're all filled with links that you would have deleted, because they either speak for the issue or against - like abortion.--] <sup>(]•])</sup> 11:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC) ::::::Islam is also a well known POV issue. So you're saying if we divide the sections into the various POV's, then its ok? I'm going to go with the nice Abortion example you gave. Yes. Could you put back the links and divide them into the POV headings like abortion? Also, you should go around in all Islam articles and you'll see they're all filled with links that you would have deleted, because they either speak for the issue or against - like abortion.--] <sup>(]•])</sup> 11:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Islam is not a "well known POV issue". Islam is not an "issue", Islam is a religion. Abortion is a specific action performed by human beings on human beings. As such it can be and is regulated by the state through law. The pro and anti stances have relevance specifically because of that fact--because lobbying the government and pressuring politicians may alter the way in which the state regulates abortion, how it creates and enacts abortion related policies. They also exist as well established and easily referenced cultural institutions because of this. Islam on the other hand is not "a specific action", but a complex of beliefs and practices that varies historically and cross-culturally. Clearly there are people who are against Islam, and those who are for Islam. However, that discourse is not well known at all, and it has very little cultural cache. Very few non-Muslims would claim to be either for or against Islam, but would say that Islam is a religion about which they have no such opinion. People may be against terrorism or extremism of any kind, but they are intelligent enough to understand that this is what they are against and not the religion that such terrorists or extremists claim a part of. To go back to Abortion the equivalent comparison would be to say that Christianity is the "well known POV issue" (and not abortion) because there are many Christians who use religious justifications for disallowing abortion. Yet, the public, not being the total dupes you'd like them to be, understands that it is not Christianity they don't support but the pro-life stance that they do not support. The reason why I would welcome you to create these "pro-Islam" and "anti-Islam" categories in the links section is because then people would get the picture the so called "terrorism experts" whose blogs you'd like to link and non-informative apologetics others would like to link represent a very small minority of ideological extremists like yourself. BTW calling Islam a "well known POV issue" is very telling about where you stand and little respect you have of Islam as a ''human'' institution, so thanks for betraying that here. Cheers.] 12:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 12:44, 24 April 2007

WikiProject iconCrime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism Unassessed
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related
???This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Terrorism task force.
WikiProject iconIslam Start‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion on December 12, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

' Please keep off-topic discussion unrelated to the upkeep of the article to a minimum.'

Archiving icon
Archives


We need new pages and categories for Islamic Terror attacks

There should be a page that lists Islamic Terrorist attacks. At the least, a category should also be made for "Attacks by Islamic Militants". I realized this when I came across Air France Flight 8969 and I was surprised that there was no easy way of quickly seeing that this was an attack by Islamic Terrorists. Any constructive suggestions? --Matt57 14:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hezbollah classified as "Islamist"?

Can someone please add a source citing Hezbollah as an Islamist terrorist organization, rather than just a terrorist organization? I've seen it referred to as an Islamic terrorist organization before, but I don't recall seeing it referred to as Islamist. Thanks. — George Saliba 23:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone been able to find such a source by chance? If nobody can find such a source I would question the inclusion of Hezbollah in this article. — George Saliba 08:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
From the first paragraph of Misplaced Pages's Hezbollah article:

Hezbollah (Arabic: حزب الله‎ ḥizbu-llāh, meaning "party of God") is a Shi'a Islamic political and paramilitary organization based in Lebanon. It follows a distinct version of Islamic Shi'a ideology developed by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the Islamic Revolution in Iran.

Therefore, if they're a terrorist group at all, they're obviously an Islamist-centered one. The only real debate is if they are a terror group. --Hiddekel 16:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the Islamism article has ben re-written. It used to define Islamist as those who were trying to spread Islam and push Islamic governments on others, but as it no longer does the point regarding Hezbollah is likely moot. — George Saliba 17:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggesting a Merge of Religious conversion and terrorism into Islamist terrorism

The religious conversion entry has nothing to do with "religion" generically. However, it also has nothing to do with "conversion" except circumstantially. That is, there is no substantive connection between "conversion" to religion, or Islam specifically, and terrorism. The entry is simply about converts to Islam who have become militant. The current entry title is therefore fallacious and moving it, for instance to something like Conversion to Islam and terrorism would not add anything substantive. It would simply be another space in which to provide information about Islamist terrorism (granted through a very negligible aspect of such terrorism--recent converts to Islam). Therefore I suggest the information in Religious conversion and terrorism merge into this entry, Islamist terrorism. Please consider the merits of this merge because the other option I am entertaining is an AfD on the conversion entry.PelleSmith 14:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me like the Religious conversion and terrorism article should just be deleted. Maybe add a one-liner to this article stating that some Islamist terrorists were converts, but even though I don't really see the point, or how the information in that article is encyclopedic. — George Saliba 01:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated the entry in question for AfD given the lack of interest in this merge. Follow this link to engage the discussion: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Religious conversion and terrorism.PelleSmith 12:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
PelleSmith has deleted a number of significant citations from the articleReligious conversion and terrorism, at the same time nominating it for deletion. That is unethical.--ISKapoor 17:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The deleted references from the article (including a a detailed list) show that 9% of the terrorists are converts. PelleSmith has also taken the liberty to remove some names from the list of suspects. The list was:
  1. Dhiren Barot ,
  2. Adam Gadahn,,
  3. David Hicks,
  4. Muriel Degauque,
  5. Richard Reid,
  6. Bob Denard,
  7. Aukai Collins
  8. some of the The Portland Seven.
  9. Derrick Shareef
  10. Daniel Maldonado
--ISKapoor 17:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I made each of those edits with detailed edit summaries that speak for themselves, however this talk page is clearly not the forum to discuss them. Please come see for yourselves if you wish since I do not recommend taking ISKapoor's word for it regarding my behavior or intentions. Cheers.PelleSmith 20:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

This article should be deleted for the reason that terorism can't be associtaed with any relegion.What will you call a action of some Hindu extermist or some jewsish extermist?.You can't the chrisation extermism as Christian terroism.I have mention the the three of the larrgest religions of the world.SUCH ARTICLES SHOULD BE DELETED WHCIH MAY BE A SOURCE AGAINST SOMEBODY OR SOMEONE.User talk:Yousaf465

Osama Bin Laden and every other muslim terrorist has associated Islam with terrorism. There is a clear connection between Islam and terrorism. Islamic terrorism is a very notable concept in the media, and is widely supported by many muslims. Just because it goes against your personal religous beliefs is no reason to delete it, and it is very POV to do so.--Sefringle 06:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Wahhabism

Something should be said regarding Wahhabism in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.98.127.45 (talk) 23:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

External links section

The external links section to this page is atrocious. It looks like some hideous compromise between two warring POV factions. I've deleted a majority of the links because they either lead to blog/editorials, to irrelevant materials, or lead to very specific relevant topics that should be referenced correctly in the text and not linked to in external links. Please see my edit summaries if you are reviewing my deletions. Cheers.PelleSmith 03:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the links are also simply dead.PelleSmith 03:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The External links section is not a place to compromise POVs. One right wing "terrorism expert" vs. Noam Chomsky, one inconsequential video of people claiming to believe in Muslim extremism vs. some website with links to Muslims decrying terrorism ... come on. By all means disregard my advice and go back to the good old days of POV compromise, but those links just point to the very reason why entries like this will never be trusted as reliable sources of information.PelleSmith 03:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, so you have left now only one External link. That little guy is lonely now, he said if his friends were shot down, he wants to be shot down too. Seriously - why did you leave that link? How will you find a link on this topic that is completely NPOV? You'll find everything is either for or against, as it the case with most Islam topics. Why shouldnt people be able to read different points of view of this issue? You started with deleting my link which is very relevant to this article, as the first line here says: "Islamist terrorism is terrorism done to further Islam as believed by its supporters and practitioners" - is that line POV? --Matt57 05:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
You just made an argument for not having these types of entries at all. Cheers to that. That link was the only one providing relevant information about a known Islamist terrorist group -- al-Qaeda. The rest of the links were tenuously related to the subject matter at hand or were editorials which are in essence the same as blogs--narrow POVs. Your link, for instance, was not about terrorism but about "violence" and homicide. You say that these entries are inherently POV ... that's complete nonsense. There are politicized factions surrounding any politicized issue, but that doesn't mean there aren't neutral ways of portraying such issues. Take a good look at the External Links section to Abortion for instance. Do you see editorials railing against abortion or advocating for it? Do you see diatribes about how anti-abortionists are the real criminals? Do you see video footage of supposed abortion activists claiming that the murder is justified? No you don't, you see links to information about abortion and abortion related issues. So what's the difference here? Are they wrong to have an informative and neutral External Links section? PelleSmith 12:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, there are pro and anti-abortion links. What do you mean? Second, terrorism = violence and homicide. Whats the difference? Do you think "Islamic-awareness.org" should be removed from the EL section of Islam? --Matt57 00:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes and that external links section is 100% clear in categorizing the links as non-neutral and/or blatantly ideological when they are. Also, the abortion debate is a well known and well worn POV issue. People understand that there are "two (or more) sides" to the issue. In fact these two sides, pro-life and pro-choice have become an integral part of "abortion" in American discourse. Because of this, having those links in the External links sections with the appropriate labels becomes informative to the knowledge consuming public because they now understand even better what ideological position each group is pushing. If you want to put those links back under the headings "Pro-Islamic" and "Anti-Islamic" then by all means go ahead ... you'll be doing my work for me and proving exactly the point I'm trying so desperately to bring out here. Is that what you want?PelleSmith 03:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
In regards to your point about terrorism you are completely wrong. We don't call a garden variety murderer a terrorist nor do we call the state of Texas (for example) a terrorist organization just because they perform death on others.PelleSmith 03:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Islam is also a well known POV issue. So you're saying if we divide the sections into the various POV's, then its ok? I'm going to go with the nice Abortion example you gave. Yes. Could you put back the links and divide them into the POV headings like abortion? Also, you should go around in all Islam articles and you'll see they're all filled with links that you would have deleted, because they either speak for the issue or against - like abortion.--Matt57 11:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Islam is not a "well known POV issue". Islam is not an "issue", Islam is a religion. Abortion is a specific action performed by human beings on human beings. As such it can be and is regulated by the state through law. The pro and anti stances have relevance specifically because of that fact--because lobbying the government and pressuring politicians may alter the way in which the state regulates abortion, how it creates and enacts abortion related policies. They also exist as well established and easily referenced cultural institutions because of this. Islam on the other hand is not "a specific action", but a complex of beliefs and practices that varies historically and cross-culturally. Clearly there are people who are against Islam, and those who are for Islam. However, that discourse is not well known at all, and it has very little cultural cache. Very few non-Muslims would claim to be either for or against Islam, but would say that Islam is a religion about which they have no such opinion. People may be against terrorism or extremism of any kind, but they are intelligent enough to understand that this is what they are against and not the religion that such terrorists or extremists claim a part of. To go back to Abortion the equivalent comparison would be to say that Christianity is the "well known POV issue" (and not abortion) because there are many Christians who use religious justifications for disallowing abortion. Yet, the public, not being the total dupes you'd like them to be, understands that it is not Christianity they don't support but the pro-life stance that they do not support. The reason why I would welcome you to create these "pro-Islam" and "anti-Islam" categories in the links section is because then people would get the picture the so called "terrorism experts" whose blogs you'd like to link and non-informative apologetics others would like to link represent a very small minority of ideological extremists like yourself. BTW calling Islam a "well known POV issue" is very telling about where you stand and little respect you have of Islam as a human institution, so thanks for betraying that here. Cheers.PelleSmith 12:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6121084.stm Muslim convert who plotted terror, BBC 7 November 2006
  2. Al-Qaida’s al-Zawahri, American issue video, Suspect wanted by FBI ‘invites’ Westerners to convert to Islam
  3. Mall a terror target: Feds: Muslim convert charged with plotting, Chicago Sun-Times, Dec 9, 2006 http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20061209/ai_n16899538
  4. From N.H. to Somalia: Recalling a suspect's zeal, February 17, 2007, Boston Globe, http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/02/17/from_nh_to_somalia_recalling_a_suspects_zeal/
Categories: