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==Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?==
== Preface ==
{{user|Winchester2313}} presumably accuses ''me'' of an , yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:


<blockquote>'''Joseph B. Soloveitchik'''
The current preface reads as follows and has been in place for the best part of seven years:


In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".
<blockquote>'''Elazar Menachem Man Shach''' ({{lang-he|אלעזר מנחם מן שך}}, Elazar Shach; January 1, 1899 ] – November 2, 2001) was a leading ] ] ] in ], ]. He also served as one of three ] of the ] in Bnei Brak, along with Rabbis ] and ]. Due to his differences with the ] leadership of the ] in 1984, he ], with whom he founded the ] party. Later, in 1988, Shach sharply criticized ], saying that, "] are not yet ready for leadership positions",<ref name="ReferenceB">'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001</ref> and subsequently ] political party representing ] (non-Hasidic) ] in the Israeli ].</blockquote>


'''The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University '''
I am wondering why my more comprehensive summary, below, of Rabbi Schach's life has been reverted?


Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup></sup> Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.<sup></sup></blockquote>
<blockquote>'''Elazar Menachem Man Shach''' ({{lang-he|אלעזר מנחם מן שך}}) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading ] ] of the non-Hassidic ] of ] who served as ] of ] in ].

Born in ], he escaped the impending ] after immigrating to ] where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three ] of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis ] and ]. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored a four-volume Talmud commentary and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews. Held in high esteem among large portions of his constituency, he was able to dominate and impose his will over the non-Hassidic Ashkenazi community, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.<ref>Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). , ''Jerusalem Post''.</ref> His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish ]".<ref name=Guardian061101>Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). , ''The Guardian''</ref> He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against ] and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society, his "rabbits and pigs speech" being described as a "pivotal moment in Israeli history".<ref>Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). , ''Haaretz''.</ref>

He was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (] in 1984 representing ], and ] in 1988 representing ] ]) which won disproportionate state funds for ] and other orthodox institutions.<ref name=Guardian061101/> In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that ] was "]".<ref name=Guardian061101/></blockquote>

Comments, please. ] (]) 21:34, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

There would be multiple issues with your proposed rewrite, so I would advise against it. Just ''some'' of the problems are the obvious peacock terms, the dearth of sources complying with ] - or any sources at all (obituaries and hagiographies aren't reliable). You are correct in that the lead has been more or less unchanged for years, but that is after months of debate and discussion among many editors before reaching consensus. Considering that, I'd imagine that attempts to substantially rewrite this article would be no less controversial than Shach himself. I'd advise reading https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch as well as the part of the manual explaining what the 'lead' is supposed to be.] (]) 15:09, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

*Please indicate the "obvious peacock terms."
*Please indicate which text needs citation.
*Please provide wikilink which disqualifies citing obituaries.
*Please provide wikilink which states that previous debate and discussions among editors precludes any further editing.
*Considering ] states: "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies," please indicate why you feel the current lead, which only mentions his role as dean and founder of two political parties, sufficiently covers all aspects of Shach's notability.
** ] (]) 21:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

*** After the years of constant warring on this page, a version emerged that was the result of consensus. Please ] stop the war and refrain from wholesale deletions and rewrites without real consensus. If you insist on making substantial changes, may I suggest doing one at a time ''after'' discussing with other editors first please. ] (]) 22:17, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

No one wants to discuss? ] (])

You, ] , seem intent on forcing your poorly and largely ] revision of a highly controversial page. Discussion should take place and consensus be achieved before revising pages with long histories of debate and final consensus. I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either. Almost all of Shach's ] during his lifetime and beyond was due to his relentless attacks on other Jewish groups and sects. Your attempt to sanitize his history and make him sound like some type of piously inclined Santa Claus is unlikely to succeed - the historical record is simply too great. Instead of faking an attempt at ''discussion'' - why not read my and ]'s comments above and refrain from starting a needless ]? I'd also recommend familiarizing yourself with the page history and discussions over the years, so that you don't simply waste time rehashing old arguments. ] (]) 03:21, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
:"I might also add that your stealth edits deleting well-sourced information about Shach and his many wars against other rabbis and groups won't make you look particularly honest either." Please provide evidence. ] (]) 23:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I was referring, particularly, to your removal of a highly significant sentence; 'Shach was undoubtedly the greatest antagonist of the ] and the only major Lithuanian rabbi to come out in force against the Chabad movement and it's leader'.<ref>''The Rebbe of Lubavitch: Death of a leader'', Kobi Bleich, page 2, Maariv, June 13, 1994</ref>
:Added by you on - without any "discussion"? (Oh, and what were you saying about obituaries not being RS...?) ] (]) 02:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
::Nobody here has provided any coherent reason why my lead is unfit to publish. Neither have they addressed my comments. If anyone wishes to discuss this, please do so here. Meanwhile I am re-adding it. ] (]) 07:43, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
::{{To|Winchester2313}} Please DO NOT without responding here please. Many thanks ] (]) 16:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I see two editors objecting to your forcing your views onto the page yet you seem to feel you have the right to edit-war your revisions onto the page. The existing consensus version is well sourced, ] and devoid of peacock words and ] claims. Might I suggest you take a look at the lead paragraphs on the pages of some famous rabbis whose ] far exceeds Shach's, so you get an idea of what a proper lead looks like? I recommend looking at ], ], ] and ] for some examples. If you continue to ] on this page, I intend to take it to ANI which may result in your being blocked. ] (]) 16:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
:There is no edit war here. There is me trying to understand your opposition to my lead for '''two and a half months''' by way of discussion here and after 12 days of no reply from you (along with no coherent explanation of what exactly you take issue with!), I re-added my balanced and sourced lead. I would add that it is not by any stretch of the imagination! The one editor here objecting, yourself, have still not clarified which aspects of the lead contravene the guidelines. You see fit to provide links to other rabbinic figures as examples of good leads which in my opinion are good examples of precisely what lead should not be! So for the third time, please tell me what is 1. not sourced. 2. not balanced. 3. uses peacock terms. 4. are exceptional claims. If you continue to dodge these questions, I do not see why I am not able to add my lead. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

== W1: "Following the controversy"? ==

<blockquote>"In 1988, Shach accused Adin Steinsaltz of heresy and was later chief among a group of rabbis banning his works. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, however, '''approved''' of the Steinsaltz talmud '''following the controversy'''."</blockquote>

{{user|Winchester2313}}, please explain how you that RMF "approved of the Steinsaltz talmud following the controversy." As far as I am aware, RMF issued an endorsement for the original Hebrew version, the controversy began after the death of RMF when the English version appeared. ] (]) 00:34, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

The facts are otherwise - the controversy and attacks were specifically regarding the (first and for many years only) Hebrew edition. Apparently Steinsaltz's cardinal sin with his talmud was his abandoning the traditional layout of the pages. It was then that Shach launched his attack and RMF supported it. As you correctly note, the English version was first printed many years later, and they also then changed the layout to resemble the original more closely. In the interim Shach was convinced to allow (albeit passively) the printing of the Artscroll talmud, but none of this is directly relevant so I refrained from expanding the page to include it. ] (]) 04:30, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:Please provide a source to support your contention that the controversy began in the 1960s. The JTA states: "Shach insisted that all of Steinsaltz’s work was heretical, however, another eminent 20th-century authority, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, approved of the Steinsaltz Talmud." RMF's "approval" no doubt refers to his endorsement appearing in the original Hebrew edition. Nothing in the JTA mentions that RMF took a position and supported the Steinsaltz Talmud ''after'' the controversy, which according to sources I have seen, only erupted in 1989. Please provide RS which supports that Shach attacked the layout of the Hebrew edition. ] (]) 21:07, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:{{Re|Winchester2313}} Please answer. ] (]) 22:10, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

== W2: Holocoasut ==

{{user|Winchester2313}}, why did you , giving preference to the original:

<blockquote>Shach taught that events like ] occurred because the ] accumulated, and they needed to be punished in order to rectify them. He said that, "God kept count of each and every sin, in a running count over hundreds of years, until the count amounted to six million Jews, and that is how the Holocaust occurred. So must a Jew believe, and if a Jew does not completely believe this, he is a ], and if we do not accept this as a punishment, then it is as if we don't believe in The Holy One, Blessed be He..."<ref>Yated Neeman 29/12/90. ''Mussar Iru'ay HaTekufah'' (מוסר אירועי התקופה)(2011) - pg. 36 - http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=52045&st=&pgnum=35</ref></blockquote>

instead of my expanded version with superior citations:

<blockquote>Shach taught that ] was a divine punishment for the ] and for their abandoning of religious observance for the ].<!--and Zionism--><ref name="Mintz1998">{{cite book|author=Jerome Mintz|title=Hasidic People|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=uEP5KNUAFh0C&pg=PA377|date=August 19, 1998|publisher=Harvard University Press|isbn=978-0-674-04109-7|page=377|chapter=Notes to Page 48-52|quote=Schach has maintained that the Holocaust was the result of God's anger toward the Jews for their failure to abide by the mitzvot and their falling under the spell of Zionism and the enlightenment.}}</ref> He said "The Holy One Blessed Be He kept score for hundreds of years until it added up to six million Jews." This caused outrage in the secular Israeli media and a robust response from the ].<ref name="Millerpg392">{{cite book|author=Chaim Miller|title=Turning Judaism Outward: A Biography of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson the Seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=z8MNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA392|year=2014|publisher=Kol Menachem|isbn=978-1-934152-36-2|page=392|quote=In December 1990, the Israeli media was outraged after Rabbi Shach had declared the Holocaust as "definitely a punishment. The Holy One Blessed Be He kept score for hundreds of years until it added up to six million Jews." Convinced that G-d has enacted retribution on sinful Jews for violating the Sabbath and eating pork...}}</ref><ref>Yated Neeman 29/12/90. ''Mussar Iru'ay HaTekufah'' ( (2011). pg. 36</ref> In his defence, Haredi MKs said his comments had been misconstrued and were not meant to justify Nazi atrocities.<ref name="Ayalon1993">{{cite book|author=Ami Ayalon|title=Middle East Contemporary Survey, Volume Xv: 1991|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=mSTWx1bg7r4C&pg=PA467|date=December 30, 1993|publisher=The Moshe Dayan Center|isbn=978-0-8133-1869-1|page=467|quote=One such instance, early in the year, was when 93-year-old Rabbi Eliezer Schach, spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-Orthodox “haredi” community, declared that the Holocaust had occurred only because Jews had failed to adhere to the commandments of the Torah, and predicted that if Israel's Jews, under their secular leadership, were to persist in ignoring the dictates of the Bible, a further holocaust was likely to befall them. This statement, <!-- interpreted as a violent condemnation of Zionism, --> aroused an uproar of protest among the secular community. Labor MK Shevah Weiss, a Holocaust survivor, accused Schach of suggesting that Hitler and his Nazi followers, who had so brutally slaughtered the Jewish people, had acted as emissaries of the Almighty. During the bitter parliamentary debate which ensued, Haredi MKs defended the rabbi's statement by claiming that by virtue of its ignorance, the secular community had incorrectly interpreted their leader's statement, which had only sought to explain that Judaism provides both reward and punishment. Was it even conceivable, asked Rabbi Schach's defenders, that, having lost his own family in the Holocaust, he would justify the Nazis' deeds?}}</ref> Wishing to prevent deviation from the established order of prayers, he opposed the composition of new prayers to commemorate the victims of the Holocaust.<ref name="Mendels2007">{{cite book|author=Arye Edrei|editor=Doron Mendels|title=On Memory: An Interdisciplinary Approach|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=zBE_q09a5mgC&pg=PA51|year=2007|publisher=Peter Lang|isbn=978-3-03911-064-3|page=51|chapter=Holocaust Memorial|quote=Rabbi Shach also gave explicit expression to this view in strongly opposing the recitation of elegies for the Holocaust on the ninth of Av: "This constitutes a breaking of boundaries and provides a precedent for those who wish to restructure and reform to utilize for justifying further reforms.}}</ref> Shach believed that the secularism of Israel society could cause another Holocaust<ref name="Landau1993pg143">{{cite book|author=David Landau|title=Piety and Power: The World of Jewish Fundamentalism|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=65zXAAAAMAAJ|year=1993|publisher=Secker & Warburg|isbn=978-0-436-24156-7|page=143|quote=It was in this context that Rabbi Shach fired off one of his controversial broadsides in December 1990: "Another Holocaust could befall us tomorrow," he warned, because of the secularism of Israel society. "Remember what an old Jew is telling you. God is patient. But he keeps a tally. And one day his patience runs out, as it ran out then, when six million died."}}</ref> and he once said that if the Education Ministry were to be placed in the hands of ] MK ], it would result in "over a million Israeli children being forced into apostasy, and that would be worse than what had happened to Jewish children during the Holocaust."<ref name="Richler1994">{{cite book|author=Mordecai Richler|title=This Year in Jerusalem|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=IY-gAAAAMAAJ|year=1994|publisher=Chatto & Windus|isbn=978-0-7011-6272-6|page=73|quote=Ms. Aloni's assumption of that portfolio, said Rabbi Schach, would result in over a million Israeli children being forced into apostasy, and that was worse than what had happened to Jewish children during the Holocaust.}}</ref></blockquote>

...? ] (]) 00:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:{{Re|Winchester2313}} Please answer. ] (]) 22:09, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

== W3: Deprivation ==

{{user|Winchester2313}}, why do you deem it inadmissible to describe the suffering Shach experienced during the war years? Why have you :
<blockquote>During this period he described suffering considerable deprivation, living with inadequate sanitation and being compelled to wear tattered clothing and worn out shoes.<ref>{{cite journal |last= Englander |first= Yakir Yacov |authorlink= |date=19 Aug 2015 |title= The "Jewish Knight" of Slobodka honor culture and the image of the body in an Ultra-Orthodox Jewish context |url=https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2015.1061064|publisher= Taylor and Francis|journal= Religion|volume=46 2016|issue=2|pages=186-208|quote="My shoes were too small for my feet, and my toes protruded from them; I had no towels for washing; my hair, uncut for a whole year and a half, stuck together in long strands, absent any norm of human hygiene. My trousers were torn, and the scrapes on my legs were exposed, so that I was obliged to reverse the trousers, to make the rip less obvious, and to wear them like that"}}</ref> He reportedly sequestered himself in an attic for two years not knowing where his parents were.<ref>{{cite journal |last= Kamenetzky |first= Mordechai |date=February 2002 |title= A Biographical Appreiciation |url= https://agudah.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/JO2002-V35-N02.pdf|journal= The Jewish Observer| |volume=XXXV (2) |issue= February 2002|pages=6-15|}}</ref></blockquote>
...? ] (]) 00:55, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I, for one, do not object to those particular sourced lines you mention. My objection was/is to much of the 'Life in Europe' section in general, which needs to be cleaned up, made more encyclopedic (as opposed to simply copied from an unreliable hagiography by his grandson full of highly ] claims) and brought into compliance with ]. ] (]) 04:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:I am not discussing the section in general. The I provided above shows you removing this specific information. (Is the '']'' article an "unreliable hagiography"? Is Kamenetzky a grandson? What "exceptional claims" are made in the article?) ] (]) 02:40, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
::{{Re|Winchester2313}} Please clarify why you called my adding '''"During this period he described suffering considerable deprivation, living with inadequate sanitation and being compelled to wear tattered clothing and worn out shoes. He reportedly sequestered himself in an attic for two years not knowing where his parents were."''' "cluttering the page" and why you removed it? ] (]) 22:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

== W4: Wife's death ==

{{user|Winchester2313}}, why do you oppose adding details of the demise of Shach's wife? You :
<blockquote>Shach's wife died in 1969 from complications connected to ].</blockquote>
...? ] (]) 01:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't oppose this at all, and removed it inadvertently. ] (]) 04:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
:How can this be an "inadvertent" edit? Do you actually know what you are reverting? Have you actually compared my editing to the poorly composed "consensus" version, static and stale for 10 years? It appears you refuse to allow ''any'' changes on this page without your consent. My edits generally improved the flow and you reverted them outright. I'm flabbergasted. ] (]) 02:46, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

I trust you've gotten over your shock by now. It's not 'my' right to 'allow' any changes or otherwise. There are numerous and very specific rules and guidelines which make clear how this encyclopedia is supposed to be. The consensus I refer to and which you seem to take issue with, isn't just an aged version of the page. Rather, it emerged as a result of lengthy and vigorous debate among multiple editors over an extended period of time. For you to arbitrarily dismiss all that in favor of your own rewrites which also often run afoul of ], ] and ] is wrong. That a page about a subject who's been dead for twenty-odd years and hasn't generated a great deal of news since then, should remain relatively unchanged for ten years is not a problem. Rather the problem would be with agenda-driven editors seeking to engage in obvious historical revisionism. ] (]) 13:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
:Your claim that "a page about a subject who's been dead for twenty-odd years and hasn't generated a great deal of news since then, should remain relatively unchanged for ten years is not a problem" is absolutely ludicrous. Do you even understand what Misplaced Pages is? ] (]) 16:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

== W5: Modern Orthodoxy ==

{{user|Winchester2313}}, the "longstanding consensus" for over 10 years had this:

<blockquote><big>'''Opposition to other Orthodox rabbis and groups'''</big></br>

In addition to his criticism of Schneerson, Shach attacked the following rabbis:

'''Joseph B. Soloveitchik'''

In a lengthy attack on ] (d. 1993) of ], Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<ref>Letter of Shach – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:320:page 36</ref> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<ref>Speech of Shach (transcribed by a listener) – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:370:page 107</ref>

'''The Gerer Rebbe'''
My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows:
Shach resigned from the ] ("Council of Torah Greats") following tensions between him and the ], Rabbi ] (d. 1992). In the ], Shach had already told his supporters to vote for Shas instead of Agudat Yisrael. Some perceived the schism as the reemergence of the dissent between ] and ], as Shach represented the Lithuanian Torah world, while the Gerer Rebbe was among the most important Hasidic Rebbes and represented the most significant Hasidic court in Agudat Yisrael. However, it would not be accurate to base the entire conflict on a renewal of the historic dispute between Hasidim and Mitnagdim which began in the latter half of the eighteenth century.<ref>Friedman, Menachem jcpa.org/jl/vp104.htm</ref>
<blockquote>Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup></sup> He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces."<sup></sup> Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup></sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup></sup></blockquote>

On 6 September 2021, ] adding in its place:<blockquote>In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup></sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup></sup></blockquote>
'''Adin Steinsaltz'''
only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an , when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of ''"restoring longstanding and properly sourced version"''. (NB. here "properly sourced" = ]) What is ] playing at? ] (]) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

] (Even-Yisrael) (b. 1937) was likewise accused of heresy by Shach, who, in a letter written September 10, 1988, wrote that "... and similarly, all his other works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (''ein tocho ke-baro''), and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (''mitzvah be-sha’atah''). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement."<ref>Michtavim U-Ma’amarim. vol. 4 pp. 67</ref>

In the summer of 1989, a group of rabbis, including Shach, placed a ban on three of Steinsaltz's books.<ref>Davar – 4/08/1989 – pg. 3 – Noach Zvuluny (Can be read online here :{{cite web|url=http://www.ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |title=Archived copy |accessdate=2012-12-30 |url-status=dead |archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20131007200851/http://ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |archivedate=2013-10-07 }})</ref>

'''The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University'''

Shach wrote that ] (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called ']' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' ''churban ha-das'' ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."
<ref>Michtavim Umamarim Vol. 4 No. 319</ref>

Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "''ma'aseh ]''" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.<ref>Michtavim Umamarim vols. 1–2, p. 109, and letter no. 53. Vol. 4 no. 76</ref>

In a conversation that he had with an American rabbi in the 1980s, Shach stated, "The Americans think that I am too controversial and divisive. But in a time when no one else is willing to speak up on behalf of our true tradition, I feel myself impelled to do so."<ref name="Fate pg. 340"/></blockquote>

I tried to streamline and condense it in to this truncated text, (moving the Gerrer Rebbe to Hasidim):
<blockquote><big>'''Modern Orthodoxy'''</big></br>
Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox ] type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called ']' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' ''churban ha-das'' ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<ref>Michtavim Umamarim Vol. 4 No. 319</ref> He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces."<ref>Michtavim Umamarim vols. 1–2, p. 109, and letter no. 53. Vol. 4 no. 76</ref> Shach accused ] of ] of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<ref>Letter of Shach – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:320:page 36</ref> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<ref>Speech of Shach (transcribed by a listener) – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:370:page 107</ref> In 1988, Shach accused ] of heresy and was later chief among a group of rabbis banning his works.<ref>Davar – 4/08/1989 – pg. 3 – Noach Zvuluny (Can be read online here :{{cite web|url=http://www.ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |title=3 ספרי הרב שטיינזלץ טעונים גניזה - כדברי מינות וכפירה |language=Hebrew |access-date=2012-12-30 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131007200851/http://ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |archive-date=2013-10-07 }})</ref> He told an American rabbi in the 1980s that "the Americans think that I am too controversial and divisive. But in a time when no one else is willing to speak up on behalf of our true tradition, I feel myself impelled to do so."<ref name="Fate pg. 340"/></blockquote>

Please explain why you insist on three paragraphs:
<blockquote><big>'''Attacks on Other Orthodox Groups'''</big></br>
Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox ] type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called ']' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' ''churban ha-das'' ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<ref>Michtavim Umamarim Vol. 4 No. 319</ref> Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "''ma'aseh ]''" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.<ref>Michtavim Umamarim vols. 1–2, p. 109, and letter no. 53. Vol. 4 no. 76</ref>


:I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's ] was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting ]. ] (]) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
In a lengthy attack against ] of ], Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<ref>Letter of Shach – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:320:page 36</ref> as well as of "endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<ref>Speech of Shach (transcribed by a listener) – Michtavim U-Ma’amarim, 4:370:page 107</ref> He told an American rabbi in the 1980s that "the Americans think that I am too controversial and divisive. But in a time when no one else is willing to speak up on behalf of our true tradition, I feel myself impelled to do so."<ref name="Fate pg. 340"/>
::You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of ]. But never mind.... Now, please provide ] for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. ] (]) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


==Lead - Preparation area==
In 1988, Shach accused ] of heresy and was later chief among a group of rabbis banning his works.<ref>Davar – 4/08/1989 – pg. 3 – Noach Zvuluny (Can be read online here :{{cite web|url=http://www.ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |title=3 ספרי הרב שטיינזלץ טעונים גניזה - כדברי מינות וכפירה |language=Hebrew |access-date=2012-12-30 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20131007200851/http://ranaz.co.il/articles/article3071_19890804.asp |archive-date=2013-10-07 }})</ref> Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, however, approved of the Steinsaltz talmud following the controversy<ref>https://www.jta.org/2020/08/07/obituaries/adin-steinsaltz-acclaimed-scholar-who-made-the-talmud-more-accessible-dies-at-83</ref></blockquote>
'''Elazar Menachem Man Shach''' ({{langx|he|אלעזר מנחם מן שך}}) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading ] ] of the non-Hasidic ] of ] who served as ] of ] in ].


Born in ], he escaped the impending ] after immigrating to ] where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three ] of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis ] and ]. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored ''Avi Ezri'', a comprehensive four-volume work on ]' '']'' and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.<ref name=SharonJ>Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). , ''Jerusalem Post''.</ref>
...? ] (]) 01:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis<ref>(March 25, 2009). , ''The Times''.</ref> and the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death<ref>
**With regards to this particular section, considering that Shach's main notability was a direct result of his penchant for vicious attacks on other rabbis and groups, the original expanded version was better. While certain editors may have their own reasons for wanting to whitewash this divisive personality, such efforts are likely to start another war and not succeed in any case] (]) 02:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Leon Mock. '''', ], 2021. pg. 246.</ref> he co-headed the ], was chairman of ] and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world,<ref>Shlomo Lorincz. , pg. 282. Feldheim Publishers, 2008.</ref> including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim.<ref>Shahar Ilan. , ''Haaretz''. Nov. 4, 2001</ref> Seen as the successor of the ],<ref>Tuvia Friling. , Brandeis University Press, 2014. pg. 255. "This Rabbi Soloveitchik was also a great admirer of Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the Hazon Ish's successor as the acknowledged leader of a large part of the Israeli Haredi community...".</ref> he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.<ref name=SharonJ/>


His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish ]".<ref name=Guardian061101>Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). , ''The Guardian''</ref> He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against ] and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society.<ref name=AP050221>Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). , ''Haaretz''.</ref> In favour of giving up ], he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.<ref>Ariel Handel, Marco Allegra, Erez Maggor. , pg. 117. Indiana University Press. (2017)</reF>
The longstanding version which ] seems intent on doing away with lent appropriate ] to the page and also included proper sourcing. The idea that 40+ years of a subjects controversial attacks on other major figures and groups should just be buried in a brief paragraph doesn't pass muster under ] either. The source which was removed (and which I will restore shortly) makes clear that Shach called Steinsaltz a heretic and claimed that "all his other works contain heresy" a year before his ban with a few other rabbis a year later. Steinsaltz was also not 'modern orthodox' so burying the attacks on him in a paragraph on same seems deliberately misleading. The same goes for the Gerer Rebbe. ] (]) 13:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (] in 1984 representing ], and ] in 1988 representing ] ]) which won disproportionate state funds for ] and other orthodox institutions.<ref name=Guardian061101/> In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that ] was "]".<ref name=Guardian061101/>
==Response to Winchester2313's replies of 2nd Sept ==
Below are three responses from Winchester2313:
<small><blockquote>I trust you've gotten over your shock by now. It's not 'my' right to 'allow' any changes or otherwise. There are numerous and very specific rules and guidelines which make clear how this encyclopedia is supposed to be. The consensus I refer to and which you seem to take issue with, isn't just an aged version of the page. Rather, it emerged as a result of lengthy and vigorous debate among multiple editors over an extended period of time. For you to arbitrarily dismiss all that in favor of your own rewrites which also often run afoul of WP:BALASP, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR is wrong. That a page about a subject who's been dead for twenty-odd years and hasn't generated a great deal of news since then, should remain relatively unchanged for ten years is not a problem. Rather the problem would be with agenda-driven editors seeking to engage in obvious historical revisionism. Winchester2313 (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)</blockquote>
<blockquote>The longstanding version which Chesdovi seems intent on doing away with lent appropriate WP:BALANCE to the page and also included proper sourcing. The idea that 40+ years of a subjects controversial attacks on other major figures and groups should just be buried in a brief paragraph doesn't pass muster under WP:NPOV either. The source which was removed (and which I will restore shortly) makes clear that Shach called Steinsaltz a heretic and claimed that "all his other works contain heresy" a year before his ban with a few other rabbis a year later. Steinsaltz was also not 'modern orthodox' so burying the attacks on him in a paragraph on same seems deliberately misleading. The same goes for the Gerer Rebbe. Winchester2313 (talk) 13:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)</blockquote>
<blockquote>With regards to this particular section, considering that Shach's main notability was a direct result of his penchant for vicious attacks on other rabbis and groups, the original expanded version was better. While certain editors may have their own reasons for wanting to whitewash this divisive personality, such efforts are likely to start another war and not succeed in any caseLondoner77 (talk) 02:36, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
</blockquote></small>


===Comments===
*It is unfathomable that Winchester2313 continues to demand that no changes are made to this page on the premise of what editors decided 10 years ago is now set in stone for eternity! That goes 100% against the spirit of Misplaced Pages which is all about editors being able to contribute to an article ensuring that the page continually evolves to a good standard status. What happened 10 years ago is of significance, but does not preclude any further editing on this page in 2021. This seem to be so obvious I can't believe this is actually being contested.
This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding ''consensus'' version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of ], ], ] and ]. ] (]) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
*For Winchester2313 to claim that I "engage in obvious historical revisionism" and "arbitrarily dismiss all that in favor of your own rewrites" is an outright fabrication of the highest degree. I am yet to actually see Winchester2313 address which of my edits he actually takes issue with. Rather than just repeatedly quoting vague guidelines in an attempt to shut me down. Winchester2313 is stifling any further edits to this page in a manner that only can be classed as ].
:Please explain why it "runs afoul of ], ], ] and ]." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: '''Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001''. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. ] (]) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
*That Winchester2313 feels the page as he prefers it comprises a sufficiently high standard beggars belief. I find this article seriously lacking and in great need of considerable attention.
*Londoner77 insists on keeping the exceedingly poorly written preface which is supposed to summarise the subjects' notability, which according to him, is solely due to Schach's "penchant for vicious attacks on other rabbis and groups." How bizarre then, that despite my having added to the preface ''"His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society"'' (read: "penchant vicious attacks on other groups"), Londoner77 saw fit to revert. What exactly is going on here?
* The fact is I totally reject the peculiar POV held by Londoner77 and Winchester2313's that Rav Shach's notability stems from his "attacks". It was precisely because Shach was already a prominent personality already that his strident pronouncements initiated controversy, not the reverse.
*Winchester2313 believes it is justified to provide 766 words about those Shach opposed, while providing "appropriate ]" with 80 words in a section headed "Support from Haredi leaders" (in the old version). Interesting how Winchester2313 has completely left ''that'' section out of his recent edits. Is that balance?
*Winchester2313 has still not properly responded to my other posts above:
#He has not explained why he is opposed to my expanded preface.
#He has not provided RS showing when the controversy between Shach and Steinsaltz began.
#He has not explained why he is permitted to rely on obituaries but forbids me from doing so.
#He has not responded to my query why he is permitted to add new material (Shach was undoubtedly the greatest antagonist...) while I'm summarily accused of altering the longstanding, decades old consensus.
#He ignores my desire to understand why he arbitrarily removed my sourced additions to the Holocaust.
#He does not explain why he removed my text which detailed Shach's considerable deprivation in his youth. He simply replies: "I do not object to those particular sourced lines you mention" - why remove them then? ''' Why?''' ] (]) 00:34, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
:{{Re|Winchester2313}} You have just engaged in a slew of reverts without any attempt to discuss here. Please explain your behaviour. Many thanks. ] (]) 22:14, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving ]. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way.
==Adin Steinsaltz==
The old version had:
<blockquote>Adin Steinsaltz (Even-Yisrael) (b. 1937) was likewise accused of heresy by Shach, who, in a letter written September 10, 1988, wrote that "... and similarly, all his other works contain heresy. It is forbidden to debate with Steinsaltz, because, as a heretic, all the debates will only cause him to degenerate more. He is not a genuine person (ein tocho ke-baro), and everyone is obliged to distance themselves from him. This is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement." In the summer of 1989, a group of rabbis, including Shach, placed a ban on three of Steinsaltz's books.</blockquote>


The lead as well as the page in general is actually ] in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If ] insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. ] (]) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
My version had:
:It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. ] (]) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
<blockquote>In 1988, Shach accused Adin Steinsaltz of heresy and was later chief among a group of rabbis banning his works.</blockquote>


A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis:
Winchester2313 claims Adin Steinsaltz warrants a full stand alone paragraph on the basis that "controversial attacks on other major figures and groups should just be buried in a brief paragraph doesn't pass muster under WP:NPOV". In my view, devoting '''six sentences''' to Adin Steinsaltz here is totally ]. Many other rabbis came out with similar proclamations about Steinsaltz but that doesn't even feature on any of their respective pages. Winchester2313 intends to restore a quote from Shach which is cited to a ] which he apparently has translated into English himself from the original Hebrew. In my opinion we do not need a sub-section for each and every rabbi or group chosen by Shach for censure. That is non-encyclopedic in appearance and looks more like a a blog post. We simply do not need to add superfluous pedantics from the original quote like "this is the duty of the hour (mitzvah be-sha’atah). It will generate merit for the forthcoming Day of Judgement" or his birthdate, etc. We need one sizable section summing up all his "attacks" against various groups in one or two paragraphs. ] (]) 00:34, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
] - google results = 244,000
] - google results = 330,000
] google results = 336,000
] google results = 219,000
] google results = 121,000
] google results = 39,000


A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the wunderkind who "reportedly........" have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?] (]) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
As already noted a number of times, most of the issues you continue to raise have already been resolved by longstanding consensus and do not warrant wholesale deletion or 'reorganizing' no matter how strongly any individual editor may feel about it. Please see ]. Consensus is arrived at by ''multiple'' editors discussing and/or debating the merits (or otherwise] of various points and is not the indiscriminate 'right' of any individual to dictate - no matter how hyperbolic their arguments. I'm simply restoring the longstanding consensus and recommend you not attempt to force your personal views onto the page. Shach's ] stems largely from his attacks on other rabbis and groups. This is quite obvious from the dearth of almost any mention of Shach in mainstream media sources during his lifetime, save for reporting on his latest attack or political war. ] (]) 02:56, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
:I do not accept your position that 10 years ago some editors decided how this page should look, therefore it cannot be changed now. But please link where this consensus was reached. Show me where it was agreed that under the sub-heading "Opposition to other Orthodox rabbis and groups", there should be four further sections: Joseph B. Soloveitchik, The Gerer Rebbe, Adin Steinsaltz, The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University. ] (]) 07:14, 6 September 2021 (UTC) :He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The ''Yated'' is currently referenced only once? I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. ] (]) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)


Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.] (]) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
==Who he met==
:What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? ] (]) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
] has : "It was in Slutsk that he met Rabbis ], ] (of the ]) and ]" on the basis that ''"Everyone he met and where doesn't belong in an an encyclopedia, plus it's unsourced".'' Considering that the following appears in ]'s "long-standing consensus version for 10 years": "It was in Slutsk that he met Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer, and this was the beginning of a close life-long relationship between the two. Shach also met Rabbi Yosef Yozel Horwitz (head of the Novardok yeshiva), who had come to visit the yeshiva in order to introduce its students to the study of mussar (see Musar movement). Around this time, he also met for the first time Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, as Feinstein would often visit Meltzer at his house in Slutsk," can ] please explain why he has removed it against his own arguments about no changes being allowed on this page? ] (]) 21:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
:I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. ] (]) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is , I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. ] (]) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)


==Predecessors==
==Death - "appropriate place"?==
The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? ] (]) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
I would suggest that the "Death" section (removed by ] on because it had not been in the "original version") be placed in the Biographical section, not under "Political life" as ]. ] (]) 21:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


==Refs== ==Refs==

Latest revision as of 03:50, 4 November 2024

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Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs) presumably accuses me of an "unexplained deletion", yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:

Joseph B. Soloveitchik

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University

Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..." Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.

My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows:

Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..." He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces." Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

On 6 September 2021, Winchester2313 removed the Yeshiva University text himself adding in its place:

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an "unexplained deletion", when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of "restoring longstanding and properly sourced version". (NB. here "properly sourced" = WP:PRIMARY) What is Winchester2313 playing at? Chesdovi (talk) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's WP:NOTABILITY was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting WP:RS. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of VANDALISM. But never mind.... Now, please provide WP:RS for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. Chesdovi (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead - Preparation area

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Hebrew: אלעזר מנחם מן שך) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hasidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored Avi Ezri, a comprehensive four-volume work on Maimonides' Mishneh Torah and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.

Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis and the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death he co-headed the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, was chairman of Chinuch Atzmai and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world, including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim. Seen as the successor of the Chazon Ish, he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.

His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society. In favour of giving up land for peace, he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments

This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding consensus version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Please explain why it "runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. Chesdovi (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving WP:CONSENSUS. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way.

The lead as well as the page in general is actually WP:BALANCED in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If Chesdovi insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. Winchester2313 (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. Chesdovi (talk) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis: Adin Steinsaltz - google results = 244,000 Moshe Feinstein - google results = 330,000 Menachem Schneerson google results = 336,000 Ovadia Yosef google results = 219,000 Jonathan Sacks google results = 121,000 Elazar Shach google results = 39,000

A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the wunderkind who "reportedly........" have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?Londoner77 (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The Yated is currently referenced only once? I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. Chesdovi (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.Londoner77 (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? Chesdovi (talk) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. Chesdovi (talk) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is "non-notable", I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. Chesdovi (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Predecessors

The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". This book says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? Chesdovi (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Refs

  1. ^ Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance, Jerusalem Post.
  2. (March 25, 2009). Rabbi Avraham Ravitz: Israeli politician, The Times.
  3. Leon Mock. The Concept of "Ruach Ra'ah" in Contemporary Rabbinic Responsa (1945–2000): Possible Relations between Knowledge of the Physical World and Traditional Knowledge in Rabbinic Judaism, De Gruyter, 2021. pg. 246.
  4. Shlomo Lorincz. In Their Shadow: The Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Shach, pg. 282. Feldheim Publishers, 2008.
  5. Shahar Ilan. Rabbi Schach, a Man of Wars and Battles, Haaretz. Nov. 4, 2001
  6. Tuvia Friling. A Jewish Kapo in Auschwitz: History, Memory, and the Politics of Survival, Brandeis University Press, 2014. pg. 255. "This Rabbi Soloveitchik was also a great admirer of Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the Hazon Ish's successor as the acknowledged leader of a large part of the Israeli Haredi community...".
  7. ^ Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach, The Guardian
  8. Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist, Haaretz.
  9. Ariel Handel, Marco Allegra, Erez Maggor. Normalizing Occupation: The Politics of Everyday Life in the West Bank Settlements, pg. 117. Indiana University Press. (2017)
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