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He is often referred to as ''Elazar''. Which one is correct? ]&nbsp;|&nbsp;] 17:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


==Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?==
:Eliezer got significantly more hits on Google (particularly among the English israeli press), so I used that as the standard. ] 23:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
{{user|Winchester2313}} presumably accuses ''me'' of an , yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:


<blockquote>'''Joseph B. Soloveitchik'''
::Elazar is the (only) correct version. Way to prove it: you must know the newspaper he himself founded, Yated Ne'eman. The paper has an (unofficial) online version as well - it contains about half the articles from the regular (weekly English Israeli) paper. I repeat, *he* himself founded this newspaper. A few links:
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5762/chayesara/ - from around his death
" Maran HaGaon Hagodol HaRav Elozor Menachem Mann Shach, ztvk"l,"
Aside from that, just look at:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Elazar+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com&hl=en&lr= and
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Elozor+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com .
(It's spelled as Elazar or Elozor depending on the writer.)
Okay... Now, next, I also looked for "Eliezer Shach" ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Eliezer+Shach+site%3Achareidi.shemayisrael.com ) and it gives quite a few results as well. Now *I* am confused as well. Still, I have recently read that (quote from memory): "His real name was Elazar. It is unknown from where the name Eliezer came, but his name was Elazar." I'm 100% sure it's Elazar, so you should change it.
PS. The English-Israeli press (Haaretz etc.) are not exactly a good resource for these things, with all due respect to them (I read Haaretz myself). --] 19:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".
Daniel575- I used Eliezer because the majority of (English) resources I came across in print and the net used it. If you're convinced the other spelling is accurate, feel free to change it. I'm happy to use whatever spelling as long as we have some consistency between articles. ] 17:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
::ShalomShlomo, if you're going to work on this article more, you will do better by quoting the ] press with which Rav Schach affiliated, rather than Ha'aretz. My initial search on Google of "Menachem Man Shach hesped" turned up Dei'ah VeDibur (the English Yated Neeman here in Israel, which he also founded) and Aish.com, which are much more reliable interpreters of Rav Schach's activities than the secular, leftist Ha'aretz newspaper. As a subscriber to the English Yated, I can tell you that they are printing articles about Rav Schach nearly every week since his passing! ] 19:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
:::Yoninah, thanks for the sources. I knew Schach had a newspaper but was unaware it had an English translation. The page as it presently stands is hardly meant to be definitive; I created it because no one else had, and remembered seeing various Schach articles in Haaretz following his death. While I take your point that the haredi press are likely to certainly have more information regarding Schach's personality and teachings vis-a-vis the Torah world, outside perspectives can also be helpful, particularly relating to, for instance, analysis of Schach's political activities and astuteness, or his perception/legacy among non-haredi Israelis. The optimal solution, I think, would be to incorporate elements from both "types" of sources. The fact that I have yet to do so here is much more a function of a lack of time than it is any bias against the haredi press. I will certainly keep your comments in mind when working on this page in future. Of course, if anyone would care to help fill the various sections out a bit, that would be extremely helpful and appreciated, too. ] 00:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


'''The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University '''
==Schach a Misnaged?==


Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup></sup> Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.<sup></sup></blockquote>
Isn't true that Rabenu Shach was mitnagued!!!!! He just don't acept -like other jewish, even hasidic ones- what Chabad was/is doing! ] 17:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows:
<blockquote>Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup></sup> He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces."<sup></sup> Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup></sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup></sup></blockquote>
On 6 September 2021, ] adding in its place:<blockquote>In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup></sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup></sup></blockquote>
only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an , when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of ''"restoring longstanding and properly sourced version"''. (NB. here "properly sourced" = ]) What is ] playing at? ] (]) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)


:I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's ] was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting ]. ] (]) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
: Many of the resources I've come across on Schach either said he was misnaged, or at least mentioned that he was not hasidic. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Did he have a rebbe, for instance? Do his followers identify as Hasidism or Misnagdim? His rabbinical career seems to show strong affiliation with whatI understand are largely misnagdic yeshiva instutions, and I believe many of his influences were/are notable misnagdim. ] 20:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
::You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of ]. But never mind.... Now, please provide ] for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. ] (]) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)


==Lead - Preparation area==
::ShalomShlomo: Being "not Hasidic" does not automatically make a person into a "misnaged"! In Eastern Europe, and in most non-Hasidic yeshivas today, the bulk of students often came from Hasidic homes. It's not as clear-cut as you imagine. For example, even in Rav Schach's case, you are obviously not aware that he studied and taught at ] (see article) when he was younger, and retained a fond connection with that group. And you should note that "misnagdim" basically do NOT self-identify as such. Usually it is used more in jest. Actually, the word "misnaged" has become something of a mild "slur" as it's used by certain (Hasidic) individuals who dislike people who object to those who oppose the extremes of Hasidism. ] 02:41, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
'''Elazar Menachem Man Shach''' ({{langx|he|אלעזר מנחם מן שך}}) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading ] ] of the non-Hasidic ] of ] who served as ] of ] in ].


Born in ], he escaped the impending ] after immigrating to ] where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three ] of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis ] and ]. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored ''Avi Ezri'', a comprehensive four-volume work on ]' '']'' and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.<ref name=SharonJ>Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). , ''Jerusalem Post''.</ref>
:::IZAK: Actually, if you check the history of the article, you'll see I started it and was the one who included the Karlin bit. Thanks for the refresher, though. Interesting tidbits aside, is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was, and separated him from the Hasidic rebbes in Israel, for instance. I was also under the impression that Schach's non-affiliation with Hasidism was one of the reason he formed Degel HaTorah. If he wasn't, then someone should write a section addressing this, as I did in the page about Rav ]. Perhaps you should also write a paragraph or so about this in the various articles pertaining to Misnagdim, such as ] and ]. It could be very helpful and informative for Misplaced Pages users. ] 06:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
::::ShalomShlomo: Rabbi Shach's issues with Hasidic leaders in Israel was based almost exclusively on matters pertaining to ], and had absolutely nothing to do with meaningful religious differences and certainly was not motivated by anti-Hasidism. Do not confuse Rabbi Shach as a Haredi leader living at the end of the twentieth century with the positions of the ] who lived two hundred years earlier in the eighteenth century in an age still reeling from the after-effects of the false messiahship of ] (1626-1676)! The only exception is Rabbi Shach's vehement opposition to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi ] (1902-1994) (because of fears that like Shabbati Zevi, Rabbi Schneerson would turn out to be a "false Messiah," a position some would say was prescient), and a position shared by other Hasidic leaders as well (Satmar's opposition to Lubavitch is well known, and most Hasidic groups have a disdain for Lubavitch -- and in turn Lubavitch scorns anyone who opposes them.) In fact when Rabbi Shach established the ] political party his ally was the present ] ], Rabbi ] (b. 1948) and the two joined forces asking their followers to vote for the new party. Subsequently, Rabbi Shach was invited as the most honored guest to the Bar Mitzvah of the Belzer Rebbe's only son and heir in front of a huge public celebration. So this disproves that Rabbi Shach was anti-Hasidim (which is what ] means) even at a time when he was forming a new political party without most of his former Hasidic allies of ]. From the form of your question: "... is there actually information suggesting Schach wasn't Misnagdic? Because, as I said, a lot of the material I've read about him (online and off) claimed he was... " it shows that you are coming at this subject the wrong way. Rabbi Shach did ''not'' self-identify as a "mitnaged". Nobody does! It's almost a silly ] by now (see what I have written below to explain this further.) As for Rabbi Shach's relationships with the Hasidic rebbes of Israel who were his contemporaries, in Rabbi Shach's old age (and he was active as a Haredi leader until he was over one hundred years old!), he decided that none of the Hasidic rebbes were his equals in Torah scholarship and he gave up on trying to convince them of his POLITICAL DECISIONS by simply MOVING ON. He first did this when he created the ] party and later when he created the ] party. One must realize that Rabbi Shach was both a tremendous Torah scholar which he proved through his widely studied written works known as the ''Avi Ezri'' as well as being regarded as the pre-eminent ] in the Haredi world, and he simply "did not suffer fools gladly", as the expression goes. He was extremely conscious of his role as a Torah leader and spokesman and he was a highly astute and effective politician (creating two parties in the Israeli ] that still function is quite a feat!), but he was not opposed to the teachings or the workings of Hasidic Judaism as such (unlike the Vilna Gaon who was opposed to Hasidism -- "lock-stock-and-barrel"). None of Rabbi Shach's writings or declarations are anti-Hasidic (of course, the modern Lubavitch movemnent under Rabbi ] is the exception, because in Rabbi Shach's view it was a breeding ground for false-Messianism and had the potential to mislead masses of Jews and thus needed to be forcefully and openly opposed head-on -- but not because it was related to Hasidism as such.) Therefore, judging from his written works, Rabbi Shach was a supreme Talmudist but he did not write polemics against Hasidism. In his political actions, even when he formed the Degel HaTorah party he then encouraged it to join with the Hasidic dominated ] as the combined ] list. Except for Lubavitch, he had cordial relations with Hasidic groups and Rebbes. Perhaps, the only ones who have a vested interest in labelling him a "mitnaged" are the Lubavitchers, but they have an obvious axe to grind against him, and as a group with a vested interest (that their Rebbe should be the "Moshiach"), it's clear why they would want to call Rabbi Shach a "mitnaged". In fact if you will look at the sites on the Internet that perpetuate the word "mitnagdim" you will see that it's basically ONLY Lubavitch that still keeps up the old propagandistic and long-discarded labels of "mitnaged" or "mitnagdim". So you should not be trapped or fooled by what is by now worn-out terminology that is not used and has been dumped by most normal people. ] 06:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis<ref>(March 25, 2009). , ''The Times''.</ref> and the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death<ref>
=== Use of the the word "mitnagdim" ===
Leon Mock. '''', ], 2021. pg. 246.</ref> he co-headed the ], was chairman of ] and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world,<ref>Shlomo Lorincz. , pg. 282. Feldheim Publishers, 2008.</ref> including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim.<ref>Shahar Ilan. , ''Haaretz''. Nov. 4, 2001</ref> Seen as the successor of the ],<ref>Tuvia Friling. , Brandeis University Press, 2014. pg. 255. "This Rabbi Soloveitchik was also a great admirer of Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the Hazon Ish's successor as the acknowledged leader of a large part of the Israeli Haredi community...".</ref> he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.<ref name=SharonJ/>
I am repositing here what I have just posted at ]. Thanks. ] 05:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish ]".<ref name=Guardian061101>Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). , ''The Guardian''</ref> He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against ] and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society.<ref name=AP050221>Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). , ''Haaretz''.</ref> In favour of giving up ], he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.<ref>Ariel Handel, Marco Allegra, Erez Maggor. , pg. 117. Indiana University Press. (2017)</reF>
:Hi ShalomShlomo: Perhaps you are not aware that '''the word ] in a modern-day context is very out-dated''' and may even be regarded as a mild ] by the people you think are "mitnagdim". The original mitnagdim were so called because they followed the ] (1720-1797) who opposed the early Hasidim (who viewed the early Hasidim as another dangerous manifestation of ]'s influence), particularly Lubavitch and Breslov. The first so-called "mitnagdim" (i.e the Vilna Gaon's disciples) did ''not'' choose this name for themslves, rather, it was their Hasidic opponents, who themselves were "mitnagdim" (the word simply means "opponents" in Hebrew), who pinned the label "mitnagdim" on those who did not wish to adopt the new ways of Hasidism -- at the same time that the followers of the ] (1698-1760) chose to self-righteously call call themselves "Hasidim" (which means "righteous ones" in Hebrew) -- an act of great '']''. Without dwelling on past history, by now the fact is clear that there is no such thing as the "mitnagdim" like those who lived in the times of the Vilna Gaon! Hasidism has been well-established because its commitment to ] is beyond question and it is not opposed by anyone in the Torah world. Those Haredim who do ''not'' follow the Hasidic ways are today known as "]" or the "] world" -- or "Lithuanian yeshiva world" -- but ''not'' as "mitnagdim" because, while they seek to maintain their own traditions of the original ] that existed for a very long time BEFORE the advent of the Hasidic movement -- they are not presently enaged in an sort of '']''. As proof of the positive and constructive relations between all Haredi Jews (Hasidim and non-Hasidim together) one can look at ] in the USA which serves as an umbrella organization for Hasidic ]s and non-Hasidic Litvish yeshiva deans and their commmunities. And in Israel, the ongoing alliances of ] and ] under ] serve the common needs and agendas of all Haredi parties. Bottom line, it is very rare indeed to find groups who self-identify as "mitnagdim" so you should therefore not use that description in articles when you want to talk about or describe Ashkenazi Haredi groups that are not Hasidic. To say "non-Hasidic" is ok, or perhaps "] ] communities/rabbis" (sometimes also referred to as "]" -- but not always in a serious sense.) '''Any discussion or mention of "mitnagdim" should therefore be restricted to articles or personalities dealing with the struggles during the times of the Vilna Gaon and the Baal Shem Tov and one or two generations following them'''. Basically, the major disputes between followers of Hasidism and those who opposed them ended by the end of the nineteenth century. With the dawn of the twentieth century all the European Haredi groups and factions united, most notably as proven by the establishment of the ] in Europe in '''1912'''. Many non-Hasidim have become serious Hasidim over time, and the majority of students and faculty in non-Hasidic yeshivas have strong Hasidic ancestry. The lines run in all directions in the Haredi world, so it is incorrect to use old labels such as "mitnagdim" in a frivolous manner that does not apply today. ] 05:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (] in 1984 representing ], and ] in 1988 representing ] ]) which won disproportionate state funds for ] and other orthodox institutions.<ref name=Guardian061101/> In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that ] was "]".<ref name=Guardian061101/>

===Comments===
This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding ''consensus'' version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of ], ], ] and ]. ] (]) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
:Please explain why it "runs afoul of ], ], ] and ]." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: '''Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001''. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. ] (]) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving ]. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way.

The lead as well as the page in general is actually ] in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If ] insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. ] (]) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
:It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. ] (]) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis:
] - google results = 244,000
] - google results = 330,000
] google results = 336,000
] google results = 219,000
] google results = 121,000
] google results = 39,000

A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the wunderkind who "reportedly........" have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?] (]) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
:He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The ''Yated'' is currently referenced only once? I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. ] (]) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.] (]) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
:What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? ] (]) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. ] (]) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is , I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. ] (]) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

==Predecessors==
The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? ] (]) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

⚫ ==Refs==
{{reflist}}

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Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?

Winchester2313 (talk · contribs) presumably accuses me of an "unexplained deletion", yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:

Joseph B. Soloveitchik

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University

Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..." Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.

My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows:

Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..." He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces." Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

On 6 September 2021, Winchester2313 removed the Yeshiva University text himself adding in its place:

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear", as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".

only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an "unexplained deletion", when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of "restoring longstanding and properly sourced version". (NB. here "properly sourced" = WP:PRIMARY) What is Winchester2313 playing at? Chesdovi (talk) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's WP:NOTABILITY was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting WP:RS. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of VANDALISM. But never mind.... Now, please provide WP:RS for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. Chesdovi (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Lead - Preparation area

Elazar Menachem Man Shach (Hebrew: אלעזר מנחם מן שך) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading Israeli rabbi of the non-Hasidic Lithuanian stream of Haredi Judaism who served as Rosh yeshiva of Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak.

Born in Lithuania, he escaped the impending Holocaust after immigrating to Mandate Palestine where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three co-deans of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis Shmuel Rozovsky and Dovid Povarsky. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored Avi Ezri, a comprehensive four-volume work on Maimonides' Mishneh Torah and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.

Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis and the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death he co-headed the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, was chairman of Chinuch Atzmai and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world, including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim. Seen as the successor of the Chazon Ish, he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.

His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish Khomeini". He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against Chabad messianism and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society. In favour of giving up land for peace, he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties (Shas in 1984 representing Sepharadim, and Degel Hatorah in 1988 representing Lithuanian Ashkenazim) which won disproportionate state funds for yeshivas and other orthodox institutions. In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that Labour was "anti-Jewish".

Comments

This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding consensus version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT. Winchester2313 (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Please explain why it "runs afoul of WP:BALANCED, WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:NOT." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: 'Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. Chesdovi (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving WP:CONSENSUS. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way.

The lead as well as the page in general is actually WP:BALANCED in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If Chesdovi insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. Winchester2313 (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. Chesdovi (talk) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis: Adin Steinsaltz - google results = 244,000 Moshe Feinstein - google results = 330,000 Menachem Schneerson google results = 336,000 Ovadia Yosef google results = 219,000 Jonathan Sacks google results = 121,000 Elazar Shach google results = 39,000

A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the wunderkind who "reportedly........" have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?Londoner77 (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The Yated is currently referenced only once? I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. Chesdovi (talk) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.Londoner77 (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? Chesdovi (talk) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. Chesdovi (talk) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is "non-notable", I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. Chesdovi (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Predecessors

The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". This book says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? Chesdovi (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Refs

  1. ^ Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance, Jerusalem Post.
  2. (March 25, 2009). Rabbi Avraham Ravitz: Israeli politician, The Times.
  3. Leon Mock. The Concept of "Ruach Ra'ah" in Contemporary Rabbinic Responsa (1945–2000): Possible Relations between Knowledge of the Physical World and Traditional Knowledge in Rabbinic Judaism, De Gruyter, 2021. pg. 246.
  4. Shlomo Lorincz. In Their Shadow: The Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Shach, pg. 282. Feldheim Publishers, 2008.
  5. Shahar Ilan. Rabbi Schach, a Man of Wars and Battles, Haaretz. Nov. 4, 2001
  6. Tuvia Friling. A Jewish Kapo in Auschwitz: History, Memory, and the Politics of Survival, Brandeis University Press, 2014. pg. 255. "This Rabbi Soloveitchik was also a great admirer of Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the Hazon Ish's successor as the acknowledged leader of a large part of the Israeli Haredi community...".
  7. ^ Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach, The Guardian
  8. Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist, Haaretz.
  9. Ariel Handel, Marco Allegra, Erez Maggor. Normalizing Occupation: The Politics of Everyday Life in the West Bank Settlements, pg. 117. Indiana University Press. (2017)
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