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''Some people advocate dramatically cutting welfare payments or eliminating them entirely, but this would leave the very poor no protection from starvation and death, therefore it arguably creates a bigger problem than it solves.'' |
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{{oldafdfull| date = 22 July 2011 (UTC) | result = '''keep''' | page = Welfare trap }} |
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{{WikiProject Social Work|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Economics | importance= }} |
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{{WikiProject Basic Income | importance= high }} |
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== Misplaced Pages Ambassador Program assignment == |
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It is simply not true that without a government funded welfare system in place, the poor will die of starvation. This completely ignores the thousands of privately financed charity organizations that assist the needy. |
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This article is the subject of an ] at University of California-Berkeley supported by ] and the ] during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available ].] |
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{{small|Above message substituted from {{tlc|WAP assignment}} on 15:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)}} |
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:Since the poor '''did''' die of starvation before government-funded welfare was created, it is reasonable to assume that they will do so again if welfare is removed. Private charities have existed for thousands of years, and they've ''never'' been able to prevent all the poor from starving to death. Sure, charities make a difference, but it's a ''small'' difference. And even if that weren't the case, charities are inherently ''unreliable'', since they depend on people's good will. If, for some reason, there is a decrease in public good will, charities fail. -- ] 22:12, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC) |
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::It's definately not neutral POV then. Considering that $241 billion was given to charity in 2003 in the United States , there's absolutely no reason to believe that charity donations will not increase if people were able to keep more of their money. Charity donations also seem to increase over time on a stable basis. It shouldn't be stated as fact that once government funded welfare is cut, people will have absolutely no protection from starvation and death. The statement is seriously loaded and definately not neutral. |
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:::Again, I'd like to point out that people '''did''' starve before welfare was introduced. For the vast majority of poor people living during the 5000 years before the welfare state was created, charity offered no protection from starvation and death. Is there any proof that the same thing will not happen again if government welfare was cut? I have 5000 years of history to support the fact that people will starve without welfare. What proof do you have to support your belief that they wouldn't? |
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:::And by the way, $241 billion may sound like a big number, but how much of a difference did it make when compared to welfare? -- ] 10:33, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC) |
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::::I'd also like to point out that people starve now, welfare or no! And it's odd that everyone assumes that the abolition of welfare would mean lower taxes. There's always an agency that needs more money... -- CMoorhouse 9:35, 15 Sep 2005 |
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== Howdy! == |
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Made some changes to this thing, tried to reorganize and reflect everyone's point of view with sentences like: "some argue that X, others argue that Y." No reason why both points of view can't coexist in an article like this. Also added another example with some simple mathematics to further illustrate the issue and give it individual recognizability. I also codified the different approaches to the problem by the dominant theory in various countries. |
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] 07:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC) |
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== Unemployed don't have a choice anymore. == |
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I still have no idea where to post this! It's in the wrong place! It's in relation to the beginning of the article.Hello, I'm not sure about this. In England if you are unemployed you can't choose if you want to take a job. You either take it regardless of how much it pays or your benefits stop. Maybe you only mean Americans have the right choose? It's a small nit picking comment but if English people understood the fact that those people can't choose there may be less class discrimination. I don't even know if you think that's relevant either lol! I can't do computers! |
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I still have no idea where to post this! It's in the wrong place! It's in relation to the beginning of the article.Hello, I'm not sure about this. In England if you are unemployed you can't choose if you want to take a job. You either take it regardless of how much it pays or your benefits stop. Maybe you only mean Americans have the right choose? It's a small nit picking comment but if English people understood the fact that those people can't choose there may be less class discrimination. I don't even know if you think that's relevant either lol! I can't do computers! |
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== Graph Image Illustration == |
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==Neutrality and verify== |
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The verify tag was added because the article is unsourced. The neutrality tag was added because of sections like this: |
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''In short, the welfare trap demonstrates the way that social welfare systems can create a perverse incentive. Although such systems are intended to reduce unemployment and poverty, they often create a situation whereby the welfare recipient has an incentive to avoid raising his own productivity because his net income gain after benefits and taxes is not enough to compensate for the effort he must expend at work.'' |
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Surely welfare systems are intended to reduce poverty not unemployment. - ] 11:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC) |
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==Deleted criticism== |
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I deleted the criticism paragraph at the bottom of the page, because I'm not certain there's a meaningful distinction in this instance between "psychological" and "economic" decisions. That is, economics is, to a large degree (especially where political economy and economic policy are concerned) nothing more than psychology on a mass scale. It is nothing more, that is, than the study of human action and the reasons (psychological and otherwise) for that action. Thus, I think the final paragraph may serve more to confuse readers than clarify a very subtle distinction. Anyway, that's my two cents, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.] 08:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC) |
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== Unemployed don't have a choice anymore. == |
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I still have no idea where to post this! It's in the wrong place! It's in relation to the beginning of the article.Hello, I'm not sure about this. In England if you are unemployed you can't choose if you want to take a job. You either take it regardless of how much it pays or your benefits stop. Maybe you only mean Americans have the right choose? It's a small nit picking comment but if English people understood the fact that those people can't choose there may be less class discrimination. I don't even know if you think that's relevant either lol! I can't do computers! |
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of the page contained , which was evidently removed (17 November 2022) for lack of proper sourcing. Indeed, the source referenced for the image does not, itself, provide a ''working source'' of the actual data used to compose it (it suggests "www.dpw.state.pa.us", but this is currently defunct). (Interestingly, the at is not identical, but there is no note of an update to the 2012 post, making it probable the image was recreated by ] using the data.) |
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== Accuracy == |
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In any case: that image was an excellent illustration of the article: literally showing the "gap". Ideally, a new image could be found/created that is better sourced. However, in the meantime, unless someone is seriously questioning the accuracy of that data, I think it appropriate to seek consensus to restore the image, perhaps with a "citation needed" tag (per ]: "Is the information probably factual?"). |
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A person on disability in the United States currently receives 603 a month from ]. If they've worked they may also get ]. They may also receive ], which may add about $90 a month. They may also be able to find ]. They also usually receive ], though as well. ] 08:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC) |
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] (]) 15:33, 3 June 2023 (UTC) |
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==proposed solutions== |
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A while back I was reading about India and Australia proposing/starting new schemes that involved having to work for the government a set number of hours for welfare ] 17:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
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I still have no idea where to post this! It's in the wrong place! It's in relation to the beginning of the article.Hello, I'm not sure about this. In England if you are unemployed you can't choose if you want to take a job. You either take it regardless of how much it pays or your benefits stop. Maybe you only mean Americans have the right choose? It's a small nit picking comment but if English people understood the fact that those people can't choose there may be less class discrimination. I don't even know if you think that's relevant either lol! I can't do computers!
In any case: that image was an excellent illustration of the article: literally showing the "gap". Ideally, a new image could be found/created that is better sourced. However, in the meantime, unless someone is seriously questioning the accuracy of that data, I think it appropriate to seek consensus to restore the image, perhaps with a "citation needed" tag (per Misplaced Pages:Citation_needed: "Is the information probably factual?").
