| Revision as of 20:32, 5 March 2015 editAndyTheGrump (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers54,013 edits →"Religion = None (atheist)" or "Religion = Jewish atheist"?: reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:56, 10 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,809,225 editsm →top: merge blp/living/activepol params into blp=activepol; cleanupTag: AWB |
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== Department names == |
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== "Religion = None (atheist)" or "Religion = Jewish atheist"? == |
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Surely, as "]" is an article on Misplaced Pages, and as Mr. Miliband refers to himself as such (as stated later on in the article), then shouldn't this be changed? Or is there a specific Misplaced Pages policy on this which I have not read yet? – ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 20:49, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
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:There is no evidence whatsoever that Miliband adheres to any form of atheism specific to people of Jewish descent. Concluding that he does would constitute original research. And incidentally, no form of atheism can be described as a religion. ] (]) 20:54, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
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:: (from the article) {{quote|"''Miliband is of ] heritage—the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/38701/ed-miliband-labours-first-jewish-leader|title=Ed Miliband is Labour's first Jewish leader|author=Jennifer Lipman|newspaper=]|date=26 September 2010|accessdate=20 November 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20100928230259/http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/38701/ed-miliband-labours-first-jewish-leader|archivedate=28 September 2010|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/im-jewish-ed-miliband-is-jewish-were-all-jewish-so-maybe-britain-is-one-nation-after-all-8199966.html|title=I'm Jewish. Ed Miliband is Jewish. We're all Jewish. So maybe Britain is One Nation, after all|author=Howard Jacobson|newspaper=]|date=5 October 2012|accessdate=20 November 2013|archiveurl=//web.archive.org/web/20121008002009/http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/im-jewish-ed-miliband-is-jewish-were-all-jewish-so-maybe-britain-is-one-nation-after-all-8199966.html|archivedate=8 October 2012|deadurl=no}}</ref>—and describes himself as a ].<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10761625/Ed-Milibands-hope-to-be-Britains-first-Jewish-PM.html| newspaper=The Telegraph|title=Ed Miliband’s hope to be 'Britain’s first Jewish PM'|author=Steven Swinford|date= 12 April 2014|quote=I have a particular faith, I describe myself as a Jewish atheist. I'm Jewish by birth origin and it's part of who I am. I don't believe in God, but I think faith is a really important thing for a lot of people. It provides nourishment, a faith about how you change the world.}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|last=Bright|first= Martin|date=4 November 2010|url=http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/40603/ed-miliband-hamas-ken-livingstone-and-jewish-values|title=Ed Miliband: Hamas, Ken Livingstone and Jewish values|newspaper=]|location=London|quote=My Jewish identity was such a substantial part of my upbringing that it informs what I am|archivedate=13 November 2010|deadurl=no|archiveurl= |
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//web.archive.org/web/20090630013226/http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/40603/ed-miliband-hamas-ken-livingstone-and-jewish-values}}</ref>''"}} |
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:: and the source given from the telegraph includes his quotation: "''I have a particular faith, '''I describe myself as a Jewish atheist.''''' " (emphasis added) |
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:: I'm pretty sure someone saying that they are a Jewish atheist is sufficient 'evidence' for the case of them being so. It's not trying to claim that atheism is a religion by any means, but Jewish atheism is a separate thing from atheism alone, otherwise there would not be a separate Misplaced Pages article on the subject. Why is this not mentioned in the infobox? – ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 21:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
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::: Or if it would be better, "Religion = None (Jewish atheist)" – ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 21:15, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
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::::The fact that Misplaced Pages has an article on 'Jewish atheism' is neither here nor there - we do not cite Misplaced Pages as a source. As for what Miliband said, he describes himself as a 'Jewish atheist' certainly - but isn't an assertion that he adheres to a specific form of (non)belief known as 'Jewish atheism' - if such a thing actually exists. He is certainly Jewish by descent, and an atheist - but his self-description tells us nothing more than that. ] (]) 22:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC) |
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::::: Remove the wikilink to "Jewish atheist" in the "]" section of the article then. – ] <sup>]</sup><sub>]</sub> 13:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC) |
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The religious views are still "none (atheist)". Jewish atheist is not a special type of view; it describes a cultural and/or ethic affinity with Judaism despite being an atheist.] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC) |
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::::I fail to understand because we know that ] support that Miliband is both a Jew and an atheist: ''"There was no religion at home and Mr Miliband confirmed for the first time that he is an atheist. "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense. I don't wish I had had a more religious upbringing but I have Jewish friends who were part of the Jewish community growing up, going to Jewish youth clubs and other things. I think I felt slightly jealous."'' ] (]) 13:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, Miliband is Jewish. Yes he is an atheist. These are two different things. We don't Refer to the Archbishop of Canterbury as an 'English Anglican' in the infobox for his biography. The infobox section is labelled 'religion', and accordingly should contain information about his faith (or in this case non-faith), and not extraneous detail added solely by people self-evidently obsessed with getting the label 'Jew' into every infobox they can. ] (]) 18:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::In my opinion we should simply be reporting what ] say. The ] reports that Miliband states that he is Jewish and an atheist. ] (]) 18:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, the appropriate source for matters of faith (or lack of faith) is the person himself - "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense". In a 'religious sense' he doesn't identify with the Jewish faith. Though evidently your obsessive-compulsive addiction to tagging people as Jewish whenever possible (which you claimed to have stopped following) won't let little facts like the opinion of the man himself get in your way. ] (]) 18:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::I think we should follow sources. Judaism and Christianity do not have to fit into the same mold. The ], being a reliable source, is fully cognizant of this. That which is applicable to Christians may not be applicable to Jews, and that which is applicable to Jews may not be applicable to Christians. An atheist Jew is far more common than you may be aware. Please let reliable sources sort this out for us. And perhaps other editors here will weigh in. I'm really not interested in having this argument with you. I think I am just regurgitating standard Misplaced Pages policy on adherence to sources. We have a source stating exactly that he is an atheist and a Jew. I find this a non-issue. Is there some reason that we should not pass this information along, in an Infobox, to a reader? ] (]) 19:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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:::::::::There is nothing whatsoever in Misplaced Pages policy that supports shoehorning ethnicity into a section marked 'religion', as you are fully aware. And cut out the bullshit about this being a 'non-issue' - the archives of this talk page are full of your endless repetitive stonewalling over labels you wish to slap on Miliband, and it is self-evident that you are returning the the same obsessive-compulsive behaviour that nearly led to you being topic-banned. ] (]) 19:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::::As an encyclopedia, we pass along reliably-sourced information to a reader. There is no issue over Miliband being both an atheist and a Jew. This is clearly stated by the London Evening Standard. You refer to "shoehorning ethnicity into a section marked religion". Humans are not inanimate objects that have simply been filled with values in a rational way. There is crossover between religion and ethnicity. There is not always a distinct border between religion and ethnicity. These terms are not mutually exclusive. There is often a blurry edge between terms of this sort. Factors pertaining to either of these terms can be a component of the other term. These are attributes of identity that are applicable to an individual subject of a biography if an appropriate level of support is found in reliable sources. ] (]) 20:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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Ed was head of Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change from 2008 to 2010. This is a slighly different department from Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero which is the role he currently holds. I think his 2008 role should be split out from his current role. ] (]) 10:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::No. Your bullshit original research is no reason whatsoever to misuse the infobox section for a purpose for what it was not designed, and if it is your intention to return to this tendentious Wikilawyering POV-pushing behaviour, you can expect to be reported to WP:ANI shortly. You promised to stop doing this - you have broken your promise. Evidently your word is worth fuck-all, and you should never have been trusted. Maybe Misplaced Pages would be better off without you entirely. ] (]) 20:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC) |
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Ed was head of Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change from 2008 to 2010. This is a slighly different department from Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero which is the role he currently holds. I think his 2008 role should be split out from his current role. Fishyrabbit (talk) 10:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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