Talk:Reactions to Innocence of Muslims: Difference between revisions

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	{{ITN talk\|September 17\|2012}}

			== What is the purpose of this article? ==
	== Finally! "Summary of opinions" for the title move request ==

			This article by its content and timing appears to be nothing more than "anti-propaganda" propaganda. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Here is the results of the move request discussion: --] (]) 02:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
			:This entire article should be summarily deleted...it is meaningless and just propaganda. A bunch of Muslims get angry over a youtube video (reportedly) lol....should that justify an encyclopedia article? How completely ridiculous. Lets have an article citing every place on earth people get mad over racism, or homophobia, or atheism, or name your religion. Every day there is a protest somewhere, people get mad over stuff...whoopdee doo, to think that justifies a sourced article is blithering stupidity. Lets make an article citing all "Black Lives matter" protests in the United States...every single one of them. Really? Welcome to planet earth...welcome to humanity...full of angry people, on a daily basis. Remove this article from Misplaced Pages, it has no rational purpose. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	<div style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
			::Concur. Danleywolfe and 73.157.14.9 have it right. This is the worst of Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 10:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
	:''The following discussion is closed. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''
	----
	===Proposal to split off ]===
	:No consensus (]). Great. I <s>move</s> ] to fork ] from ]. Any seconds? — ''']''' • 03:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:*I second. --] (]) 03:29, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:*Me too. At least for now. --] (]) 03:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:*'''Oppose''': As I stated earlier, that name is terrible and confusing. I also don't see that the articles can be cleanly separated that way; it will at best result in duplicating information. And there is still widespread confusion over which events were merely “protests” and which were organized “attacks”. —{{SubSup\|] \|]\|]}} 03:53, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:*'''Oppose''': As per Kerfuffler - and surely that should be 'anti-Islam' with a small 'a' :) But I agree the present title is very problematic. ] (]) 04:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::There may be some overlap but I estimate about 80% of the content in ] will be gone (and can be re-expand to include other attacks to diplomatic missions that are unrelated to the film). We can start by nuking the "Protest" section. — ''']''' • 04:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	:*'''Support''' I have no prob
	lem with duplicate information. That may be trimmed down as the phenomenon becomes clearer. There should be no problem with including information about protests of all kinds there since some protests were violent and some were not. A fork of some type is the only practical solution to intractible opposition to having an all inclusive article here under a name which does not create apparent bias that all this activity is an attack on an embassy. Further I certainly declare that any opinion which does not immediately address this glaring sensationalization should not even be considered "consensus". It makes no observable effort as such. Continuing to offer "September 2012 Islamic/Muslim unrest" as a more general alternative that takes into account observations that not all unrest had the film as a motive. Also offering "September 2012 global unrest" to include nationalist Chinese protests and riots as well and to avoid any appearance of anti-Muslim bias. The measure on the table, however, seems an acceptable and workable compromise. ] (]) 05:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	::If choosing September 2012 global unrest, add ]
	'''Oppose, strongly!'''
	{{collapsetop\|title= Comment on the content, not the contributor ]}}
	* No, ''']''', despite your choice of bold case, you are a very minor contributor. In fact, your major contribution since you joined Misplaced Pages is to push for the moves of contentious articles.
	* No, ], you have added not one single jot to this article that I can find, to indicate that you know anything about the subject. You have just popped up out of nowhere to second something.
	{{hab}}
	'''The proposed title is misleading'''. Not simply wrong in having a capital A for anti, but wrong in the implications that it carries.
	: It is not clear in the proposed title that the expression "anti-Islam" is being used in the sense of an adjective to describe the film itself.
	: Neither is it clear that the three words "anti-Islam film" are being used to define the words "protest" .
	:It is simply horribly bad, jargonist, journalistic abbreviated writing. Like the heading in a ''really badly written'' rag of a newspaper, not like the heading in an encyclopaedia. We are writing an '''encyclopedia'''.
	:] (]) 10:06, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	Well, this may be moot, since some other editor has decided to ignore the talk page discussion and move all the information to the Innocence of Muslims page. Where they're actively talking about removing all protest information on the talk page. headdesk —{{SubSup\|] \|]\|]}} 10:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	*'''Comment'''. Did the attack occur during the protests? or did the protests occur during the attack? The title tells me the later (i.e. that the attack is the main purpose of the article and protest are part of it, developed due to it or were reactions to it). <b>]</b> ] 10:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	'''Comments''' Oh, here it goes... someone calling me a ]. The last time, somebody accused me of being on ]'s payroll. I don't see the problem here, the proposed title complies with ] and ]. The current title "2012 diplomatic missions attacks" does not, and also fails on two technical counts: a) it is not no longer about "]" and b) it is turning '''all''' instances of protests into attacks, including non-violent ones. And now, some people are trying to scrub the protest section from ] page too? You think I* have issues. If you disagree with the proposed title, at least give something better than "I don't like it", and cite actual wikipedia policies on ]. — ''']''' • 11:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Support''' moving to ''anything'' that's broader than "diplomatic missions" or "attacks" at this point. (But '''oppose''' this fork.) I'll also note that this is probably doomed to fail if drama ensues or it veers off topic again. Minor issues with contributors really don't need to be here; if there's truly a separate issue with users !voting in bad faith, that can be brought up in another section or on another page. Otherwise we end up with a mess like last time (which I've ended up contributing to further myself, now!) – ] (] \| ]) 18:54, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose'''. No comments on many of the points that Amandajm raises, but the name is confusing in that it sounds as if it refers to protests made against Islam by means of a film. ] (]) 00:45, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	**That would be "]" instead, but I tell you what: if the move is successful, we can open a discussion for the new page on other similar names including "]" and "]". Savvy? — ''']''' • 03:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	***"Anti-Islam protest film" must mean "film protesting against Islam", but "film protesting against Islam" does not necessarily result in "Anti-Islam protest film". It's like the "Cannes film festival" — we know that it's the film festival at Cannes, but grammatically it could be the festival of films about Cannes; were it neither official nor clearly the WP:COMMONNAME for this festival, we'd confuse readers by using that name. In the same way, "Anti-Islam film protest" could be a protest against an anti-Islamic film, or it could be an anti-Islam protest that uses one or more films. Because there's no official or clear WP:COMMONNAME for the topics covered in this article, we have to use a descriptive title that's not going to confuse readers. ] (]) 05:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' .... you ] to ]? What? {{Brow}} And '''Object''' to voting on... whatever that's supposed to mean... before the ] (identically titled) MR is closed, firsted with the words "No consensus. Great." in a section titled "Finally! "Summary of opinions" for the title move request". ] (]) 02:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	**Would the third level section heading "Proposal to split off ]" just I tacked on satisfy your needs? ] Gracias. — ''']''' • 03:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::No. But firsting an actual "Proposal" would be a start. ] (]) 03:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::It would also be helpful to describe how you propose to divide the content, as there's a blurry line in some cases between "protest" and "attack", and some instances are arbitrarily included in one location or the other, of the two we have. Besides, most of the non-violent protests are on ] at the moment, so it seems you should be proposing a fork there, not here. Clarified above that I oppose this somewhat vague fork; my support is for moving this page to anything that lets it be more inclusive of the general unrest. – ] (] \| ]) 13:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::::{{Smiley\|Idea}} Now THAT is an elegant solution. Instead of renaming or splitting this page, we can just update "]" to redirect to "]" section instead. If that section gets bigger later, we can spin that section off as its own article. We can then refocus this page on actual attacks on ] in 2012. Everyone is happy, yes? {{Smiley\|grin}} — ''']''' • 15:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	'''Oppose''' - While some protesters and attackers make a mention of this film, our more reliable sources, those who have actually explored the issues and provided analysis, have told us that the film is being used more as a pretense, that there are actual substantive issues involved beyond just this film, and the initial timing of these various attacks and protests was impossible to mistake for a random response to a film that had been floating around the internet for some time. As Hasdi mentions above, we have a film page and the kind of information can be included in a "reactions" section. Like User:2001:db8, I believe that this page could be renamed in such a way to cover more of the overall unrest and actions, if we can reliably cover what is going on. Most of the media is into very simplistic and shallow explanations or very black vs white type analysis. -- ] (]) 15:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
	:With the title as it is, we could potentially include ? No attacks so far, but France is beefing up embassy security after magazine caricatures Prophet Muhammad, to avoid a repeat of ]. FYI. — ''']''' • 17:54, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

			I have just added archive links to {{plural:3\|one external link\|3 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx\|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx\|nobots\|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
	'''Oppose''' - Eyewitnesses to the event and intelligence sources indicate the attack in Benghazi was a premeditated and coordinated assault, possibly with the collusion of Libyan security guards. Not simply a protest about a 15-minute clip of a film posted on YouTube. Also, there is new information from a DHS report indicating that there may have been a call to attack the embassy in Cairo, Egypt. ] (]) 10:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121124084221/http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/anti-islam-film-clinton-urges-muslims-show-tolerance/1/222103.html to http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/anti-islam-film-clinton-urges-muslims-show-tolerance/1/222103.html
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120926021934/http://businessmirror.com.ph:80/home/faith/33110-religious-groups-in-brazil-condemn-attacks-on-islam to http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/faith/33110-religious-groups-in-brazil-condemn-attacks-on-islam
			*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121113133746/http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501712_162-57516523/anti-american-protests-continue-in-indonesia/ to http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501712_162-57516523/anti-american-protests-continue-in-indonesia/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know.
	'''Oppose''' I see this as a dubious way to skirt around the outcome of the move request. - ] (]) 16:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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	'''Oppose''' It's becoming more obvious that many/most of the protests have much more behind them than a cheesy youtube ''trailer''. There is no need to attribute a ''motive'' for the protests in the title of this article, or bypassing the previous no consensus and making a POV fork. ] (]) 18:53, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

			Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;">]:Online</sub></small> 11:46, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
	'''Oppose''' All the events are somewhat related. It's too difficult to split and differentiate the catalyst for each, without mentioning the other. The proposed title would be misleading.] (]) 23:57, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

			== Misleading beginning of entry. ===
	{{archivebottom}}
	</div>
	* I am withdrawing this proposal, per successful redirect of ] to ]. — ''']''' • 15:48, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

			. ==
	== Updating redirect for ] ==

			The edit of Oct 8th 2106 seems to be a "hack" of the article. The grammar is wrong but so is the content. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 12:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	Per earlier discussions (and to keep the renaming discussions of this page as sane as possible) I can withdraw my split proposal '''IF''' I can update "]" to redirect to "]" instead of this page. No objections, yes? {{smiley\|grin}} — ''']''' • 04:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
	:Seems reasonable. If there isn't already a <nowiki>{{for}}</nowiki> link there pointing to this page, that would also be a good idea. —{{SubSup\|] \|]\|]}} 04:19, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
	::Redirect successful. Split proposal is withdrawn. — ''']''' • 15:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

			== External links modified ==
	== Substantially evolving White House narrative: now it's certainly coordinated ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	Please see http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/21/obama-s-shaky-libya-narrative.html for the details of how the U.S. official position has transitioned from initially explaining the attacks as solely an outgrowth of the film trailer protests, and now as a coordinated effort involving a Libyan politician. —] 18:30, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

			I have just modified 6 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	:As an event unfolds, and more information becomes aware, narratives naturally reflect the changes in known information. A quick look at the page for any current event on wiki is a prime example of this. I'm unsure what your point is here... ] (]) 18:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120918025228/http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/tunisia-death-toll-rises-to-four-in-us-embassy-attack/ to http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/tunisia-death-toll-rises-to-four-in-us-embassy-attack/
	::I was merely trying to point out the noteworthy fact that the U.S. authorities initially blamed the attacks as well as the protests on the film, but no longer blame the attacks on the film. —] 03:25, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120917073417/http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8533359/muslim-protesters-clash-with-police-in-sydney to http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8533359/muslim-protesters-clash-with-police-in-sydney
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120916183444/http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/fury-over-mohammad-video-simmers-on-in-muslim-world/ to http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/fury-over-mohammad-video-simmers-on-in-muslim-world/
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140116130132/http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/benghazi2014/benghazi.pdf to http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/benghazi2014/benghazi.pdf
			*Added archive http://web.archive.bibalex.org/web/20120915002959/http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hundreds-of-angry-afghans-protest-anti-islam-film-in-eastern-afghanistan/2012/09/14/5865d1b4-fe5c-11e1-98c6-ec0a0a93f8eb_story.html to http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hundreds-of-angry-afghans-protest-anti-islam-film-in-eastern-afghanistan/2012/09/14/5865d1b4-fe5c-11e1-98c6-ec0a0a93f8eb_story.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120916215310/http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2012/09/us_consulate_closes_early_beca.php to http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2012/09/us_consulate_closes_early_beca.php

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	Both the White House and the Pentagon are now unequivocally calling the attacks "terrorism."
	The has a timeline of the evolving positions, saying, "For political reasons, it certainly was in the White House’s interests to not portray the attack as a terrorist incident, especially one that took place on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks. Instead the administration kept the focus on what was ultimately a red herring — anger in the Arab world over anti-Muslim video posted on You Tube. With key phrases and message discipline, the administration was able to conflate an attack on the U.S. Embassy in Egypt — which apparently was prompted by the video — with the deadly assault in Benghazi. Officials were also able to dismiss pointed questions by referring to an ongoing investigation. Ultimately, when the head of the National Counterterrorism Center was asked pointblank on Capitol Hill whether it was a an act of terror — and he agreed — the administration talking points began to shift. (Tough news reporting — as well as statements by Libya’s president — also played a role.) Yet President Obama himself resisted using the “t” word, even as late as Tuesday, while keeping the focus on the video in his speech to the U.N. General Assembly. On Wednesday, however, White House spokesman Jay Carney acknowledged also that Obama himself believes the attack was terrorism...."

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	I'm not sure I agree with the cynical explanation that it was strictly political cover, primarily because everyone was confused about what was going on, and that confusion multiplied because the Copts were blaming the film on Jews. The real question is how much the attackers had anything to do with fomenting the protests. Some of the people who promoted the video in the weeks before the attacks have been associated with radical Sufism. —] 21:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 20:57, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
	== Not NPOV under American views ==

			== Off-topic and unclear connection to topic ==
	This article is extremely swung to the white house narrative and is not so much as even mentioning the fact that for 10 days many mainstream and Fox news programs have run on the basis that the Libyan attack was a planned measure and even went as far as to cite Al Qaeda as the attack was retribution for killing their senior leader. This article seems to be pushing the 'verifiability' aspect selectively and not dealing with a sizable portion of the populace which believes this was a terrorist attack from the beginning. I'm not going to say one view or the other view is the 'truth', but in light of the White House's formal declaration, the view consistently held by many conservative and objective media outlets have some presence here. Even the Vatican called it as such on Sept 13. ] (]) 13:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

			I came across this article by accident, nowhere in the lead is any connection to ''Innocence of Muslims'' established and half the content seems to have no connection ... or if there is a connection, it isn't made clear. ] (]) 20:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
	:Whether I agree with you or not, I don't quite see how Misplaced Pages can avoid being biased. The U.S. government has the power of law, which essentially controls what types of media and news come to light. Gag orders and whatnot. It's seemingly impossible to get an ultra-logical view of almost anything unless you witness it firsthand -- which is, of course, "original research." I suppose you could always attempt to find alternative news companies that share your views (ironic, no?) and attempt to have them listed here as "reliable sources." ] (])

			:Read the lede? This article is chronicling protests against the film. The 'connection' is that the protesters didn't like it. What exactly is unclear about that? (Serious question, not a trolly one.) ] (]) 20:27, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
	:: That would be fine if it were true. Though I can take a look about the film itself and draw such conclusions from the text: " Some U.S. officials, speaking under anonymity, said that they believed the Benghazi attack was coordinated and planned in advance, and not prompted by the film. Al-Qaeda has indicated responsibility and said it was in revenge for a U.S. drone strike which killed Libyan Abu Yahya al-Libi, an al-Qaeda leader." Which cites the refs and. We don't even discuss the fact that Al Qaeda claimed responsibility and gave a reason for it. As for the other side of the American response here's an article from Sept 14th. Its not even a stretch to find these, just set google with a parameter from Sept 11 to Sept 18th and search for 'Libyan terrorist attack' and you get a bunch of easy cites and opinions which are just now being recognized by the White House. ] (]) 14:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

	::: Agreed. Additionally, initial reports state it may have been The Green Resistance who carried out the attacks - TGR never really went away and have most certainly been very active over the last 12 months. It's not like the USG and media have provided a consistent account of events overall, and TGR angle makes a lot of sense too. In both this and the focus article of the Benghazi attack, TGR possibility is only mentioned in connection to accusations by the militia toward the protesters on Friday.] (]) 23:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

	LogicalCreator, it sounds like you are claiming that the US Executive Branch has complete control over freedom of speech and press in the United States. -- ] (]) 11:17, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
	:Concur with Avanu's observation. The U.S. executive branch's power over the media is very limited---that's been the law since '']'' (1971). In fact, a lot of Hollywood action movies like the ''Bourne Legacy'' are based on the fact that the government cannot control the media directly, and has to resort to covert means to limit the discovery or dissemination of classified information. --] (]) 19:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
	:: I wouldn't say "complete control" but when it comes to political matters/statements, we cannot ignore the fact the govt does have some sphere of influence and control - not to mention corporate influence of mainstream media as well. This older link isn't RS, but it cites all it's sources: And here's Hillary herself talking about how the US is losing the information war and needs to improve it's propaganda efforts It happens. Be wary. We must be careful not to become complicit in manipulation of the public. I believe that is what NPOV is ultimately protecting. Greater effort is needed on wiki overall, to present a world view.] (]) 23:25, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

	:::I think it's quite reasonable to reflect (based on the reputable sources listed, not the sketchy political blogs...) that there is a beleif that these may have been planned incidents. However, I don't think it's reasonable to use these references to say the events WERE planned. It's the difference between wiki reflecting what RS say about dissenting opinions, and wiki actually voicing a dissenting opinion. The latter is NPOV. Personally, I think FOX tends to run a little loose with facts, and conjecture is not the same thing as facts in general. Al Queda takes responsibility for anything it can. We can certainly cite an RS indicating that they claimed responsibility; however we can't use that source to say they WERE responsible. "NPOV" doesn't mean "I don't agree with this article". It means that the article reflects, in DUE WEIGHT, the preponderance of RS.] (]) 19:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

	== Requested move ==
	{{Archive_top}}
	{{Requested move/dated\|2012 U.S. diplomatic missions attacks}}

	] → {{no redirect\|2012 U.S. diplomatic missions attacks}} – Clarity. ] (]) 00:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

	===Survey===
	:''Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with'' <code><nowiki>'''Support'''</nowiki></code> ''or'' <code><nowiki>'''Oppose'''</nowiki></code>'', then sign your comment with'' <code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>''. Since ], please explain your reasons, taking into account ].''

	*'''Oppose''' This article is a hodgepodge of every news story mentioning the trailer. Some aren't attacks, some aren't on embassies, some involve non-American embassies. This article really shouldn't exist at all (though most of its content should be on Misplaced Pages in separate articles), but if it must, it should settle on an all-inclusive title. ] (]) 15:27, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
	*'''Oppose''' per InedibleHulk, but there's nothing wrong with capturing the coincident events in a single article and people will expect that anyway, even if they know the U.S. missions attacks were planned independent of the film protests (if they were....) —] 03:24, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	*'''comment''' since:
	:: 1) the cited cause has moved away from mere spontaneous reaction to the web movie trailers, and
	:: 2) since the site struck was not the embassy, consulate, or mission per se (it was a state dept rented house where the US ambassador died) and,
	:: 3) since the initial main attack involving the military grade weapons was against US sites,
	:: i'd therefore suggest '''2012 Anti-USA Riots in Libya'''
	:: or something like that. ] (]) 06:07, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

	* I have a few concerns:
	: 1) Not all of the "protests" qualify as "attacks". I would prefer terminology that accurately includes both the violent and nonviolent incidents under one title. eg "WHATEVER attacks and protests"
	: 2) At this early date, it seems weird to put a single "cause" on such a diverse phenomenon. I'd prefer a more basic descriptor. We know the when, the where, the who-- but the why is always harder. So, I'd suggest a title like "Sept 2012" and then some geographic descriptor ("global? Islamic nations? something else ).
	: You get my point-- let's go for a bland title that is very flexible and doesn't take a stand on gray facts or over-simplifying a diverse group of peoples into simple causes.
	:I'd throw out ] , but I'd hope some someone else with more knowledge of the movement could improve on that by adding good specific descriptors that are absolutely WP:Verifiable. --] (]) 08:00, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	::I could go for ]. —] 11:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::But what if something "related" happens five days or more from now? I think we'd be best to give notable attacks and protests their standalone articles, and list (or broadly mention) the non-notable (by Wiki article standards) in the Reaction section of whatever topic a reliable source says they're reacting to. And then don't title this article at all. ] (]) 19:07, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::: Then ]? --] (]) 02:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::: Sure, that's clearly better. The date doesn't matter nearly as much as separating the attacks from the protests. —] 02:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::::I have to ask: is there a compelling reason we should lump two unrelated events (the ] attack in Benghazi and worldwide protest of ]) into a single page? — ''']''' • 13:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::::::They were not only simultaneous, but partially co-located to the extent that the latter provided cover for the former, which alone would be sufficient to cover both in the same article. Can you imagine trying to describe the attacks without reference to the protests? But more importantly, the jury is still out as to whether the attackers anticipated or were even involved in provoking the protests. —] 15:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::::::It would be easy to explain the cover theory in the Benghazi attack article, with a Wikilink to the Reaction section of the video article. ] (]) 16:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

	===Discussion===
	:''Any additional comments:''


	Every other wiki is currently identifying this phenomenon, correctly, as anti-American in scope. Any cursory review of the talk history shows consensus developing for the above topic, followed by one (1) kneejerk Brit response, 'hey, I'm not American,' leading to subsequent kneejerk bleeding heart US American liberals shedding tears that oh god, this must be an 'international' attack, which is BS. The Japanese agree this is anti-American. The Chinese agree this is anti-US. The French, the Russians, the Spanish, the Simpler English speakers, so on and so on. It's time to the face the tough truth. This was an anti-American phenomenon.] (]) 00:29, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

	:Definitely agree it's anti-something-US-related. But Is it anti-US or anti-Westernism? e.g. KFC? non-US embassies). --08:08, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

	Would ] be a reasonably-sufficiently all inclusive title?] (]) 06:03, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	:There's a better than even chance that the initial attacks had virtually nothing to do with the film, unless its publicity was intended to provoke the protests to give cover for the attacks, which seems to be getting more exploration in the "unnamed administration sources" press. —] 11:36, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	::The ] is definitely anti-American. The worldwide '''<u>protest</u>''' against the ] (which started at the US Embassy in Cairo) is against the American-made film itself, NOT Americans in general. Both coincided on the same day, September 11 2012, which probably lead this mass media confusion. Does that help? :-/ — ''']''' • 17:10, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::I wouldn't say there's any media confusion. They seem to be linking and sensationalizing these events with a clear purpose. I won't get into what that purpose is here, but it's not much different than the usual vague "linked to al-Qaeda", "linked to Iran" or "inspired by Tunisia and Facebook". This does lead to confusion among media ''consumers'', however. Which is why Misplaced Pages shouldn't follow their lead; it serves an entirely different purpose (straightforward education, not shaping opinion). ] (]) 18:51, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

	::::It does not matter whether the initial attacks were ''in fact'' about the film or not. Although I agree that the nature of the initial attacks is subject to debate, we may never find out the real HARD FACTS. But an inability to pin down facts does not prevent us from having articles about events? There are a gazillion news sources which discuss the initial attacks/protests in relation to the anti islamic film. So, we can do the same? Of course we can and should note the disputed nature of the initial attacks within the article. Does that solve our problem? Can we now try to find a new title for the material in the article?] (]) 15:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
	:::Have you checked the latest news? The word from administration now is that the Benghazi mission is a terrorist attack from a "militia friendly to Al-Qaeda," not prompted from the film. So, can anyone tell me what this page is supposed to be about that is not already in "]" or "]"? Anyone? — ''']''' • 16:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
	::::Not me. ] (]) 19:39, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
	{{Archive bottom}}

	== Inclusion of "Other related attacks"? ==

	Apparently some editors don't want to include the "Other related attacks" section, which included info about the attacks in Lebanon, Afghanistan, and the Israeli border, all of which were reported to be inspired by the video. I know what the current title of this article is, but it's disputed. These non-diplomatic missions attacks are '''clearly''' related to the other attacks. They are all part of the larger reaction to the Anti-Islam video, fueled by various reasons. Until we get a consensus here, the '''status quo remains'''.--] (]) 21:35, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
	:Disputed or not, the article is ''currently'' about a string of protests (or "attacks") on diplomatic missions, not the perceived cause of it. The perceived cause is mentioned in the article, yes, but it is a detail, not the topic. A section titled "related attacks" should mean "related to the topic of the article". This is more of a "Attacks that have things in common with the topic". It's like saying ] and ] are related because they're from ]. This section belongs in the Reaction section of ], if anywhere. ] (]) 21:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
	:In simpler terms, there is no ''direct'' connection between Point A (the embassy attacks) and Point C (routine warzone activity), only through the intermediary Point B (a YouTube video). If we decide the Benghazi attack was caused by al-Qaeda (or whoever), should we then consider other shit caused by al-Qaeda (or whoever) to be significantly related to the topic here? ] (]) 22:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

	::It is easy to see that this article has developed far beyond the limitations of it's scope, as per it's title. Instead of paring down the material, this could mean that we should simply use a broader title. Deleting material from a well developed article would be a retrograde step. Another issue is that there is considerable overlap/duplication between this article and ]. So, to avoid unnecessary duplication, we would probably either have to merge this article with the ] or merge ] into this article. In either case, we should not delete material without making sure that it has been inserted into the other article. If we delete material without inserting it in the other article, some material may be lost. As such, I think we should allow the section to stay until we decide what to do. Thanks.] (]) 01:47, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
	:Yes, merging is the way to go. This article is at least three existing articles (and several potential) rolled into one, bound by some imaginary "phenomenon" some editors feel obliged to try and adequately define. Split this whole thing into nice compartmentalized articles (or sections) and the naming and inclusion problems are solved. ] (]) 04:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

	::What about the clearly-related protests in Bangkok that missed the mass media? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	===Protest map===
	The large map refers to protests not even mentioned in this article. Batu Caves? There is no argument to retain material that is not part of the article. I have removed places not mentioned in the article. ] (]) 02:34, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

	:The article is about ] despite the current title. Please let the material stay until we decide what to do. Instead of deleting material, changing the title or merging with another article may be better options. Thanks.] (]) 03:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

	== Reorganization proposal ==

	I propose that contents to be reorganized into 3 major pages:
	# ]. The anti-Islamic film that cause such a ruckus in 2012.
	# ]. The terrorist attack on U.S. diplomatic X in Benghazi, Libya. "]" can be redirected here.
	# <s>]. The word "Worldwide" can suggest the global scope of the reactions. I am using the word "reactions" as it covers both protests and attacks, as well death threats like from the Pakistani minister, and possibly pretexts in routine warzone activity like in Afghanistan. The term "anti-Islamic film" may seem redundant but "Innocence of Muslims" was intentionally titled to be misleading, to suggest a film that is favorable to Muslims when it is not. Contents of ] can be moved here.</s>"]" per consensus below. — ''']''' • 13:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	Thoughts welcome. — ''']''' • 20:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	:'''Support''' -Separating the peaceful protests (which are now in the Innocence of Muslims article) and violent protests (which are now in the diplomatic missions attacks article) when both the peaceful and violent protests are related is nonsense. However, I'd suggest to name the new article "Reaction to Innocence of Muslims", with the reactions section in the IoM article redirecting to that. That long title you suggested is unnecessary. Take a look at ]. --] (]) 21:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	::I'm cool with "]." I just thought some might appreciate a bombastic title as significantly more notable. o.0 All that sound and fury over a pathetic film and its director, IMNSHO. I suggest we note the major protests initiated in U.S. Embassy in Egypt, which coincided with the terrorist attack on U.S. diplomatic compound in Libya. — ''']''' • 21:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	:'''Support''' merging into all existing relevant Main/Further Information articles. '''Oppose''' creating new reactions article; the section in Innocence of Muslims should suffice. If we must split for size reasons, "Worldwide" and "anti-Islamic film" are unnecessary in title. And it'd be "Reactions ''to''", not "of". ] (]) 21:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	::I am also open to keep the section ] if the size can be contained, otherwise "]" it is. — ''']''' • 21:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::Also, I think this title should redirect to the potential reactions article instead of Benghazi. Sad as it is, "attack" and "protest involving fire, anger or throwing things at a wall" have become commonly synonymous in news lately. I think more people searching for 2012 diplomatic attack'''s''' will be looking for the whole hubbub. ] (]) 21:47, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
	::Hmm... it would suggest that the reactions article be as its own article rather than merely a section under '']''. BTW, will that article be titled "]" or "]"? Also, we might want to merge "]" into that article under "Condemnation of violence" section instead of renaming it to "]". @____@ — ''']''' • 00:36, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::I should have been clearer. '''If''' we go with a separate article for reactions, it should get the redirect. And if that article is created, we should merge this Reactions to the Diplomatic Attacks article. Each country can have its own section where we list the protests/attacks/whatever, followed by the official reactions of that country's spokespeople. Much neater that way. I think "reactions" would be better for the title. They may be similar ("We do not condone this!") but they're still technically separate reactions, not a global joint statement. "Reaction" isn't so terrible, though. But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. ] (]) 02:24, 2 October 2012 (UTC) That reactions article is going to be tough to merge, after looking at it. I didn't realize how much fat we'd have to trim. I'd figured it was just reactions from the countries affected, not the entire political world. That'll be a doozy of a debate, I can tell. But yeah, we'll see how it goes. ] (]) 02:42, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	::{{Smiley\|idea}} That been the case, I suggest we just '''rename''' this page to "]", trim out the Libya attack, replace the profile image with a picture of the Cairo "attack", and THEN discuss potential split / merger on "]" talk page, and also discuss merger on "]" talk page. Otherwise, the next move is to '''delete''' / merge of this page instead, which I sense some editors are not ready for yet. — ''']''' • 13:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::Sounds good to me. ] (]) 20:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	:::Fine with me. --] (]) 20:27, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	So, do we need to formally propose a Page Move to retitle this? Or did we just establish consensus here? Any objectors out there? ] (]) 21:53, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
	:We typically hold a formal discussion if there is a potential for edit-war. We can wait around for a few more hours just to make sure no one else objects. In light of agreement with the US administration and mainstream news regarding the Benghazi attack, I can't think of any good reason to reconsider the new title. — ''']''' • 23:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

	== Removing Benghazi ==

	Even the mainstream (including the White House Press) is now in general agreement that this was a separate, coincidental event which has virtually nothing to do with Innocence of Muslims (which has become the ''de facto'' common thread tying this article together). It has its own separate enormous article, and is no longer relevant here, in light of multiple reliable sources since it was added. So I'm getting rid of it. ] (]) 21:32, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

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Love Our Prophet was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 22 November 2012 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Reactions to Innocence of Muslims. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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What is the purpose of this article?

This article by its content and timing appears to be nothing more than "anti-propaganda" propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danleywolfe (talk • contribs) 18:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

This entire article should be summarily deleted...it is meaningless and just propaganda. A bunch of Muslims get angry over a youtube video (reportedly) lol....should that justify an encyclopedia article? How completely ridiculous. Lets have an article citing every place on earth people get mad over racism, or homophobia, or atheism, or name your religion. Every day there is a protest somewhere, people get mad over stuff...whoopdee doo, to think that justifies a sourced article is blithering stupidity. Lets make an article citing all "Black Lives matter" protests in the United States...every single one of them. Really? Welcome to planet earth...welcome to humanity...full of angry people, on a daily basis. Remove this article from Misplaced Pages, it has no rational purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.157.14.9 (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Concur. Danleywolfe and 73.157.14.9 have it right. This is the worst of Misplaced Pages. 2.50.17.144 (talk) 10:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

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Misleading beginning of entry. =

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The edit of Oct 8th 2106 seems to be a "hack" of the article. The grammar is wrong but so is the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.133.252.209 (talk) 12:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

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Off-topic and unclear connection to topic

I came across this article by accident, nowhere in the lead is any connection to Innocence of Muslims established and half the content seems to have no connection ... or if there is a connection, it isn't made clear. Pincrete (talk) 20:06, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Read the lede? This article is chronicling protests against the film. The 'connection' is that the protesters didn't like it. What exactly is unclear about that? (Serious question, not a trolly one.) SnowFire (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

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