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Latest revision as of 19:40, 13 November 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,291,664 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 7) (bot |
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| subject = talk page |
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| title = Are Jews White and Is Richard Spencer a White Supremacist? Misplaced Pages Debates |
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| author = Omer Benjakob |
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| org = '']'' |
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| url = http://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium-1.811289 |
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| date = September 8, 2017 |
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| accessdate = September 9, 2017 |
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{{Contentious topics/page restriction talk notice|1RR=yes|topic=ap}} |
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== ] or ]? == |
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* Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer (white supremacist), '''No consensus''', 26 January 2017, {{section link|Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 1|Proposed move: Richard Spencer (white supremacist)}} |
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* RM, Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer (white supremacist), '''No consensus''', 26 October 2017, {{section link|Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 4|Requested move 26 October 2017}} |
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* MRV, Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer (white supremacist), '''Endorsed''', 3 November 2017, ] |
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* RM, Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer, '''No consensus''', 2 November 2017, {{section link|Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 4|Requested move 2 November 2017}} |
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* RM, Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer (activist), '''Not moved''', 28 November 2017, {{section link|Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 4|Requested move 28 November 2017}} |
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* RM, Richard B. Spencer → Richard Spencer (white supremacist), '''No consensus''', 8 December 2017, {{section link|Talk:Richard B. Spencer/Archive 5|Requested move 8 December 2017}} |
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== Spencer has changed his views == |
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He says - rather convincingly in my view - that he is no longer a white nationalist and no longer associates with neo-Nazis, alt -right, etc. While of course we should not remove his scurrilous past of Nazi rhetoric, etc, I think per WP:BLP we should clarify in the opening paragraph that he has changed his views, or at least claims to have, rather than simply presenting him as a "neo-nazi, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and white nationalist." ] (]) 03:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:So? (see ]). ] (]) 12:40, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== What is the source for "anti-semitic conspiracy theorist?"== |
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I cannot find any source for this. ] (]) 03:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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: for starters ] ] 04:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== Ukraine/Russia == |
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I know it is only possible under very rare circumstances to use tweet citations to demonstrate the views of an individual due to Misplaced Pages policy on self-published sources (a policy that I´m not sure I entirely agree with, nevertheless it is still policy), anyways, the point being in relation to Russia/Ukraine that the tweet that demonstrated Spencer´s newfound support for NATO and Ukraine was taken off the section on his geopolitical views, which is fine in one regard that it complies with Misplaced Pages policy but it should be strongly emphasized that Spencer is no longer a supporter of Russia as anyone would believe from simply reading the article, so we should find a source to change this. ] (]) 08:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:I think tweet citations '''can''' demonstrate views of an individual. To quote from ]: |
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{{strike|I think it should be included in the lead that he is a ], not just ], which is often used a dysphemism, but the sources we are using identifies him as so. He is also identified as a ] only. ] (]) 01:46, 12 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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:¨Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information '''about themselves''' ...¨ . |
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:White nationalist is what white supremacists call themselves.] · ] 01:55, 12 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:] (]) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{strike|Misplaced Pages differentiates between the two, so that's WP:POV from you. Just no. ] (]) 02:33, 12 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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::However it also may not be true, so what did the edit say? ] (]) 13:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Not sure what you mean by 'what did the edit say'; please clarify? |
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:::Do you mean if Spencer is lying about his own views? If he is verifiably the account holder, his earnestness in proclaiming this is not something we should litigate |
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:::] (]) 13:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::He may well be, people do it all the time (In fact he has been accused (has he not) of not being honest about his politics?), what I meant is what I said, what did (or will) the edit say? ] (]) 14:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::And "The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;". ] (]) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Shall I restore the tweets then? ] (]) 07:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::::No, as it is "unduly self-serving", it is his claim to distance himself from criticism. ] (]) 10:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2024 == |
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*SPLC dscribes him as white nationalist and white separatist. And mentions white supremacy twice.] · ] 03:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC) |
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*{{ec}}They are different in principle, but in practice the difference is barely acknowledged by most sources. The article says he's president of a white nationalist think tank, so the connection is made perfectly clear in the lede. Over-emphasizing this difference is pointless and non-neutral, and as ] points out, white nationalists avoid the word supremacy because of its negative connotations. While it's preposterous to pretend that "white nationalist" doesn't have the same negative connotations, it doesn't matter because Misplaced Pages doesn't use ]s. Also, white supremacists are described by Misplaced Pages as a subset of white nationalists, so what's the problem with the current wording? How many layers of redundancy do we really need here? ] (]) 03:14, 12 March 2016 (UTC) |
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::Agree with Grayfell on this point. Many reliable sources describe him as a white supremacist. As a result, that's the more accurate description, as it's a subset of white nationalist. ] (]) 12:10, 12 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::{{strike|Sources didn't mean that he's a ] in the sense of him adhering to a subset, the sources meant he's a white supremacist in the POV way. ] (]) 23:13, 13 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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::::{{ping|Connor Machiavelli}}, what does "in a pov way" mean? I am never clear what you mean by that and I don't think you are. I'd also like to know when you think it's acceptable to use the term "white supremacist" as you rarely if ever agree to using it. Note please that I'd appreciate answers to both questions. ] ] 09:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::{{strike|I mean sources define him in different ways. According to Misplaced Pages, I don't think he's a ] of ], prove he adds ideas from ] and ] to his ideology, then. Also WP:UNDUE. ] (]) 20:34, 14 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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::::::I have no idea what you mean. What does "According to Misplaced Pages" mean? I don't understand any of the rest either. Why would I prove anything? What do social Darwinism and Nazism have to do with this? Nor do I understand why at ] you want to keep in material sourced only to one poor source, while here you think ] can be applied to something with 3 sources. 4 soon I think, checking another one. ] ] 21:00, 14 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{strike|It already says he's a ], so why different wording? "White separatism and white supremacy are subgroups within white nationalism. The former seek a separate white state, while the latter add ideas from social Darwinism and Nazism to their ideology." from ] on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 21:16, 14 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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::::::::Your reasoning is original research. We go by what reliable sources say, and we don't use Misplaced Pages as a source. ] ] 21:28, 14 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{strike|Nope, Misplaced Pages has the source right here, http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2003/04/interviews-offer-unprecedented-look-into-the-world-and-words-of-the-new-white-nationalism-60031/ ] (]) 21:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)}}{{small|Connor Machiavelli has been blocked for ].}} |
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::::::::::No mention of Spencer there. ] ] 22:12, 14 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::I'd like to suggest that we've reached consensus on this topic, based on the fact that multiple editors have agreed that the current terminology is the most accurate one, ] and ] have articulated why the current terminology is the most accurate, and the only reason this is still going on is that the only editor still arguing for a change to "white nationalist" is ], and every argument presented by him has been refuted point by point. At this point we're just stretching this argument out beyond common sense, and it's a waste of everyone's time. ] (]) 22:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC) |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Richard B. Spencer|answered=yes}} |
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== WP:BLP == |
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It must also be included that after endorsing joe biden, he also endorsed Kamala Harris. |
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https://nypost.com/2024/11/02/us-news/prominent-white-supremacist-richard-spencer-endorses-kamala-harris/ ] (]) 01:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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"Misplaced Pages's sourcing policy, Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed. This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion." ] Spencer does not accept the label "white supremacist". If the subject finds the distinction important, there is a hurdle to clear. And I'm not listening to a 20 minute Maddow monoologue. (]) 03:07, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done''': it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:ESp --> ] (]) 01:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC) |
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: The NYtimes link describes him as chairman of a white nationalist think tank. ] (]) 03:21, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::You mean the one titled ""? There is no reason to confine out interpretation of sources to the first sentence found by typing ctr+f. The substance of the article is clear. |
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::Not liking a source doesn't make something poorly sourced. Video sources are a hassle but if you're not willing to listen to them, then it's hard to take your complaints seriously. He is known for promoting white supremacist views regardless of what he calls himself. The distinction between white supremacist and white nationalist is mostly a ] word game anyway, and most sources use them interchangeably.(yes, Buzzfeed can be a reliable source) etc. ] (]) 03:28, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::: Spencer's *public* position is that he is not a "white supremacist", though those terms are commonly conflated with "white nationsalist" and "white separatist". His denial *must* be in the article, and a rebuttal given from a RS that has considered the difference and said, yeah, he is. BLP requires that contestable material be removed until consensus is reached. ] (]) 03:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::So find a source where he claims he's not a white supremacist and use that to add a rebuttal, if you really must. You merely saying that he doesn't admit something about himself isn't justification for ignoring multiple reliable sources. ] (]) 03:39, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::: The Time article quotes his denial is already in the article. Can you at least give a time stamp for the Rachel Maddow video? ] (]) 03:44, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::::It's around 2:30, where she calls him "sort of America's foremost white supremacist" among other things. If you already have a source, use it. Edit warring isn't going to work, and removing reliable sources like the Maddow clip without good cause also isn't going to work. ] (]) 03:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::::: removing BLP violations are exempt from 3RR. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:BLP/3RR#BLP_vio_removal_and_3rr There are a number of in depth profiles, interviews from RSs of Spencer. They mostly tend to note his denial of the supremacist label, talk about his views, note that he hangs out with open white supremacists like KKKers (note part of the definition given in the wikipedia article for white supremacists is wanting to rule over non-whites, which Spencer publicly claims not to), and then let the reader make up their own mind. An unscriptedn designation by Rachel Maddow is not RS. ] (]) 04:07, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::::::::Yes, it is a reliable source. Just saying it's not a reliable source doesn't make it true. Unflattering things, even offensive things, are not automatically BLP violations if they are true according to reliable sources. Basing this on ''part'' of one definition of the term is either shifting the goalposts or missing the point. Sources are saying he's a white supremacist. You are free to add sources explaining his position, and that should probably be done either way, but that's not a valid reason for removing multiple reliable sources to the contrary, of which Maddow is only one example. ] (]) 07:49, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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*Coming from BLPN. It is not in keeping with NPOV to describe someone in the lead solely according to their own self-identification when there are reliable sources that give a different characterisation. It's fine to indicate what his own preferred term is, but it isn't okay to give ''only'' that term -- that's the NPOV problem in a nutshell. ] (]) 08:47, 4 October 2016 (UTC) |
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He says - rather convincingly in my view - that he is no longer a white nationalist and no longer associates with neo-Nazis, alt -right, etc. While of course we should not remove his scurrilous past of Nazi rhetoric, etc, I think per WP:BLP we should clarify in the opening paragraph that he has changed his views, or at least claims to have, rather than simply presenting him as a "neo-nazi, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and white nationalist." NeverEnoughStan (talk) 03:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
I know it is only possible under very rare circumstances to use tweet citations to demonstrate the views of an individual due to Misplaced Pages policy on self-published sources (a policy that I´m not sure I entirely agree with, nevertheless it is still policy), anyways, the point being in relation to Russia/Ukraine that the tweet that demonstrated Spencer´s newfound support for NATO and Ukraine was taken off the section on his geopolitical views, which is fine in one regard that it complies with Misplaced Pages policy but it should be strongly emphasized that Spencer is no longer a supporter of Russia as anyone would believe from simply reading the article, so we should find a source to change this. StrongALPHA (talk) 08:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
It must also be included that after endorsing joe biden, he also endorsed Kamala Harris.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 01:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)