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Revision as of 05:13, 27 February 2008 editDekimasu (talk | contribs)Administrators56,397 edits →Contested move request: adding top in proper place← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:45, 15 November 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,793,985 editsm →top: -dup blp params; cleanupTag: AWB 
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=Start|blp=yes|listas=Gross, Michael|1=
{{WPBiography|living=yes|class=|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Biography |sports-work-group=yes}}
{{WikiProject Olympics |importance=}}
{{WikiProject Swimming}}
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== Span == == Span ==

''due to his super long arms which gave him a total span of 2.27 m'' ''due to his super long arms which gave him a total span of 2.27 m''


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==Contested move request== ==Contested move request==

⚫ <!--Template:WP:RMC-->''The following request to move a page has been added to ] as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a ] is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM.'' —]<font color="darkgreen"><small>]</small></font> 05:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
{{Discussion top|1=The result was '''not to move'''. ] (]) 16:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)}}
⚫ *''']''' → ] - Groß is the correct spelling of his name, see his article in German wiki, "Naming conventions (use English)" in this case not essential as both Gross and Groß are not English. Kind regards ] (]) 19:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
⚫ <!--Template:WP:RMC-->''The following request to move a page has been added to ] as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a ] is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM.'' —]] 05:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
⚫ *''']''' → ] - Groß is the correct spelling of his name, see his article in German wiki, "Naming conventions (use English)" in this case not essential as both Gross and Groß are not English. Kind regards ] (]) 19:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC) <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
**Oppose. See , , for how it is written in English by various sources. ] (]) 20:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC) **Oppose. See , , for how it is written in English by various sources. ] (]) 20:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
***I know, but it is wrong. Isn't the problem, that all these sources ignore the German letter "ß"? But English wikipedia uses the letter "ß" already. ] (]) 20:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC) ***I know, but it is wrong. Isn't the problem, that all these sources ignore the German letter "ß"? But English wikipedia uses the letter "ß" already. ] (]) 20:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
****English wikipedia only uses "ß" when the English language does; in turn this is established by consulting English usage. I would be quite surprised if English usage supports the use of "ß" in this case. Thus English wikipedia is quite right, correct, and accurate to use Gross: this accurately depicts the convention in English usage.] (]) 05:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
**Oppose for above reasons] (]) 05:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
**Incomplete. ] (]) 01:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC) **Incomplete. ] (]) 01:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' this is ***not*** the German Misplaced Pages. It is highly biased to allow German lettering when we don't allow Japanese, when it matters even more in Japanese or Korean to get right name. ] (]) 03:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. ]. ] (]) 18:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' For those stating "use English", I'd like to point out that the relevant guideline you're citing explicitly states "''There is disagreement as to whether German, Icelandic and Faroese names need transliteration for the characters ß, þ and ð.''" Since there aren't any "never use ligatures" or "only use ligatures" rules, this is really a matter of taste; therefore, as long as the proper redirects exist, it's fine to leave it as it is. ] (]) 22:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per callmederek, especially link to Britannica article. ] (]) 00:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
{{Discussion bottom}}
*'''Mild oppose''' The German "ß" is uncommon in English usage. It should be mentioned in the lead, but otherwise... I find myself conflicted, here, because I tend to prefer the native usage over a forced conformity. ] ] 15:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
*'''Mild oppose''' I think the case by Dirtlawyer below is sound and that using Gross is the proper thing to do on the English wikipedia, even though personally I mildly prefer using the "ß". ] (]) 19:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

== Spelling of surname in English; contested 2011 page move ==

The German double-s character is not used in standard English; this is an English language article. Per the relevant section of the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style (see ]), unless reliable English language sources use the German character, standard English characters should prevail. I will go further and suggest that unless a majority of reliable English language sources use the German character, the name should be rendered in standard English characters.

IMO, the proper way to handle this matter is to render the subject's surname in standard English characters first, but also in the foreign characters in the introductory sentence of the lede, as we typically do in other English language biographies of foreign persons where the spelling of the name varies from English to the subject's native language. The redirect page should be reformulated in the German characters to redirect to an article title in standard English.

I have not been a past contributor to this article; my interest has been prompted by another editor's changes to swimmer articles that link to this one. To the typical English language reader, the German double-s character is confusing and contrary to the way the authoritative English language sources cited above (Britannica.com, The New York Times, official English language Olympics website), among many others, most commonly render the subject's surname in English language articles about him.

A quick review of this talk page clearly establishes that the previous 2008 consensus was to render the subject's surname in standard English. In the absence of a new consensus established on this talk page, I will revert the unilateral 2011 page move and spelling change in ten days. I will not, of course, interrupt or preempt a productive talk page discussion if one is ongoing at that time. Let's keep in mind that the question is not what the correct spelling of the name is in German; per WP:MOS, the question is how reliable English language sources most often render the name in English language publications. Let's do our homework and keep the name-calling to a minimum, please. ] (]) 15:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

:The question, as far as I can see, is whether the name is rendered as Groß or Gross in English-language articles about him. I'm not talking about a list of participants, but an actual article written about the person. I find it hard to believe that articles written for a non-German audience would use the eszet. As such, the "Use English Names" criterion would suggest "Gross" as the proper article name. ]]<sub>]</sub> 22:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
: The ] is not as helpful here as one might expect. It says “Most recent personal names have but one correct spelling”, though. That statement would prefer native “Groß”, of course.
: The guideline “]” has this to say, “German proper names should be treated with care, and attention to English practice” and might be more in favor of “Gross”.
: As someone with an umlaut in his surname, I personally find it offensive to have it being written ‘ae’ or, worse, ‘a’ by someone who has (or somewhere where there are) the technical means available to write it correctly. Others might not feel as strongly about the issue, though. Things are a little bit different when we’re not talking about names from the same script.
: Anyhow, you should probably seek guidance on the Talk page of either of the MoS articles, although MoS tends to settle on fowl compromises. — ] ] 07:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

::If you'd really wanted a concluding decision, you'd informed the person who performed the preceding move (me) or at least referred to my reasoning. Interestingly, suggests that he has officially changed his name to "Gross". However, at least the IPA transcription should be added, because the double-s usually indicates short vowels in German, especially so since the ]. --] (]) 18:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

== A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion ==
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* ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2020-08-08T10:45:40.514544 | Michael Gross 1985 Paraguay stamp.jpg -->
Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 10:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:45, 15 November 2024

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Span

due to his super long arms which gave him a total span of 2.27 m

According to German Misplaced Pages it's 2.13 m. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.178.149.189 (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

spelling of the name

The name is actually Groß, not Gross (see German Misplaced Pages). The letter "ß" can be substituted by "ss" when it can't be helped, but here it should be possible to spell it correctly. 80.132.240.173 (talk) 21:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Contested move request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was not to move. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The following request to move a page has been added to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves as an uncontroversial move, but this has been contested by one or more people. Any discussion on the issue should continue here. If a full request is not lodged within five days of this request being contested, the request will be removed from WP:RM. —Dekimasuよ! 05:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Mild oppose The German "ß" is uncommon in English usage. It should be mentioned in the lead, but otherwise... I find myself conflicted, here, because I tend to prefer the native usage over a forced conformity. TREKphiler 15:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Mild oppose I think the case by Dirtlawyer below is sound and that using Gross is the proper thing to do on the English wikipedia, even though personally I mildly prefer using the "ß". Gap9551 (talk) 19:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Spelling of surname in English; contested 2011 page move

The German double-s character is not used in standard English; this is an English language article. Per the relevant section of the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style (see WP:DIACRITICS), unless reliable English language sources use the German character, standard English characters should prevail. I will go further and suggest that unless a majority of reliable English language sources use the German character, the name should be rendered in standard English characters.

IMO, the proper way to handle this matter is to render the subject's surname in standard English characters first, but also in the foreign characters in the introductory sentence of the lede, as we typically do in other English language biographies of foreign persons where the spelling of the name varies from English to the subject's native language. The redirect page should be reformulated in the German characters to redirect to an article title in standard English.

I have not been a past contributor to this article; my interest has been prompted by another editor's changes to swimmer articles that link to this one. To the typical English language reader, the German double-s character is confusing and contrary to the way the authoritative English language sources cited above (Britannica.com, The New York Times, official English language Olympics website), among many others, most commonly render the subject's surname in English language articles about him.

A quick review of this talk page clearly establishes that the previous 2008 consensus was to render the subject's surname in standard English. In the absence of a new consensus established on this talk page, I will revert the unilateral 2011 page move and spelling change in ten days. I will not, of course, interrupt or preempt a productive talk page discussion if one is ongoing at that time. Let's keep in mind that the question is not what the correct spelling of the name is in German; per WP:MOS, the question is how reliable English language sources most often render the name in English language publications. Let's do our homework and keep the name-calling to a minimum, please. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The question, as far as I can see, is whether the name is rendered as Groß or Gross in English-language articles about him. I'm not talking about a list of participants, but an actual article written about the person. I find it hard to believe that articles written for a non-German audience would use the eszet. As such, the "Use English Names" criterion would suggest "Gross" as the proper article name. VanIsaacWS 22:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The MoS for personal names is not as helpful here as one might expect. It says “Most recent personal names have but one correct spelling”, though. That statement would prefer native “Groß”, of course.
The guideline “Use English” has this to say, “German proper names should be treated with care, and attention to English practice” and might be more in favor of “Gross”.
As someone with an umlaut in his surname, I personally find it offensive to have it being written ‘ae’ or, worse, ‘a’ by someone who has (or somewhere where there are) the technical means available to write it correctly. Others might not feel as strongly about the issue, though. Things are a little bit different when we’re not talking about names from the same script.
Anyhow, you should probably seek guidance on the Talk page of either of the MoS articles, although MoS tends to settle on fowl compromises. — Christoph Päper 07:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
If you'd really wanted a concluding decision, you'd informed the person who performed the preceding move (me) or at least referred to my reasoning. Interestingly, this interview's leading section suggests that he has officially changed his name to "Gross". However, at least the IPA transcription should be added, because the double-s usually indicates short vowels in German, especially so since the German orthography reform of 1996. --Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 18:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:45, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

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