Revision as of 14:01, 13 March 2023 editGråbergs Gråa Sång (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers57,500 edits press← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:54, 16 November 2024 edit undoMcSly (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers32,216 editsm Reverted edit by 2409:4080:8E1D:4AAB:0:0:6A0A:9811 (talk) to last version by TryptofishTag: Rollback |
(132 intermediate revisions by 50 users not shown) |
Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Skip to talk}} |
|
{{Skip to talk}} |
|
{{Talk header|archive_age=30|archive_bot=lowercase sigmabot III}} |
|
{{Talk header}} |
|
{{Vital article|level=4|topic=Biology|class=GA}} |
|
|
{{ArbComPseudoscience}} |
|
{{ArbComPseudoscience}} |
|
{{FAQ|collapsed=no}} |
|
{{FAQ|collapsed=no}} |
Line 7: |
Line 6: |
|
{{controversial}} |
|
{{controversial}} |
|
{{British English Oxford spelling}} |
|
{{British English Oxford spelling}} |
|
|
{{Canvass warning|short=yes}} |
|
{{recruiting}} |
|
|
{{ArticleHistory|action1=GAN |
|
{{ArticleHistory|action1=GAN |
|
|action1date=03:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC) |
|
|action1date=03:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC) |
Line 82: |
Line 81: |
|
|currentstatus=GA |
|
|currentstatus=GA |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|1= |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes|class=GA|vital=yes|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|class=GA|importance=top}} |
|
{{WikiProject Skepticism|importance=top}} |
|
{{WikiProject Homeopathy |class=GA}} |
|
{{WikiProject Homeopathy}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative medicine |class=GA}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative medicine}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views |class=GA |importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Alternative Views|importance=High}} |
|
{{WikiProject Citizendium Porting |date=2009-06-28 |comment=The Citizendium article shows a strong POV. Its contents should be treated with extreme caution, and any material taken from it must be carefully verified.}} |
|
{{WikiProject Citizendium Porting|date=2009-06-28 |comment=The Citizendium article shows a strong POV. Its contents should be treated with extreme caution, and any material taken from it must be carefully verified.}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{Reliable sources for medical articles}} |
|
{{Reliable sources for medical articles}} |
Line 97: |
Line 96: |
|
|url = https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-booster-dr-tess-lawrie-goes-all-in-for-homeopathy-for-covid-and-long-covid/ |
|
|url = https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/ivermectin-booster-dr-tess-lawrie-goes-all-in-for-homeopathy-for-covid-and-long-covid/ |
|
|lang = |
|
|lang = |
|
|quote = Lawrie, as is the case with most quacks, is not happy with Misplaced Pages. Indeed, she starts out by looking at Misplaced Pages: "Let’s start with the lies and misinformation about homeopathy. Here’s how the internet’s propaganda factory Misplaced Pages currently defines it:" |
|
|quote = Lawrie, as is the case with most quacks, is not happy with Misplaced Pages. Indeed, she starts out by looking at Misplaced Pages: "Let’s start with the lies and misinformation about homeopathy. Here's how the internet's propaganda factory Misplaced Pages currently defines it:" |
|
|archiveurl = <!-- URL of an archived copy of the page, if the original URL becomes unavailable. --> |
|
|archiveurl = <!-- URL of an archived copy of the page, if the original URL becomes unavailable. --> |
|
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
|
|archivedate = <!-- do not wikilink --> |
|
|accessdate = March 13, 2023 |
|
|accessdate = March 13, 2023 |
|
|
|
|
|
| author2 = Syeda ShahBano Ijaz |
|
|
| title2 = How Conflicts and Population Loss Led to the Rise of English Misplaced Pages’s Credibility |
|
|
| org2 = ] |
|
|
| url2 = https://politicalsciencenow.com/how-conflicts-and-population-loss-led-to-the-rise-of-english-wikipedias-credibility/ |
|
|
| date2 = 29 May 2023 |
|
|
| quote2 = Take the example of the Misplaced Pages page on homeopathy: from 2001-2006, the lead on the page described homeopathy as a “controversial system of alternative medicine.” From 2006-2013, the content changed to mentioning that homeopathy has been “regarded as pseudoscience” and sharing that there is a “lack of convincing scientific evidence confirming its efficacy.” By 2015, this description had stabilized to “homeopathy is a pseudoscience.” |
|
|
| archiveurl2 = |
|
|
| archivedate2 = |
|
|
| accessdate2 = 30 May 2023 |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
Line 116: |
Line 125: |
|
__TOC__ |
|
__TOC__ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Mathematically impossible statement == |
|
== Please add first name == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The article contains this statement: |
|
In the lead section, can someone add "Samuel" in front of "Hahnemann" in this sentence: |
|
|
|
"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance." |
|
|
This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. ] (]) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think.<span id="Usedtobecool:1722222132127:TalkFTTCLNHomeopathy" class="FTTCmt"> — ''']''' ] 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)</span> |
|
|
::No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --] (]) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. ] (]) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. ] (]) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::The ''maths'' itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. ] 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::If this is all ], it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the ]— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is ''also'' incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. ] (]) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::It cites a source. ] (]) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? ] (]) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: . --] (]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024 == |
|
"Its theory of disease, centered around principles ____ Hahnemann termed" |
|
|
|
{{collapse top|Collapse AI blather}} |
|
|
|
|
|
{{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}} |
|
Its the first time he is mentioned in the article and should be specifically identified. |
|
|
|
This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Misplaced Pages's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Misplaced Pages, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Misplaced Pages should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Misplaced Pages lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform. |
|
|
|
|
|
{{collapse bottom}} |
|
Thank you! ] (]) 23:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
] (]) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
:Reordered it so Hahnemann is mentioned earlier with his full name and link. Thanks for flagging. ] ] 05:27, 4 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
:{{notdone}} Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. ] (]) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC) |
|
==Basic Research duckweed/ arsenic== |
|
|
In Switzerland at the University of Bern at the Institute of Complementary and Integrative Medicine Classical Homeopathy / Potentiazed Substancesare researched.University of Bern,Institute of Complementary and Integrative Medicine, Inselspital Bern, Freiburgstrasse 46, CH-3010 Bern |
|
|
*https://www.ikim.unibe.ch/about_us/contact/index_eng.html |
|
|
*https://www.ikim.unibe.ch/unibe/portal/fak_medizin/dept_lehremed/inst_kom/content/e54415/e54416/e54418/e122276/pane122425/e1073382/JahresberichtIKIM-HOM-2019_2020_DE_ger.pdf |
|
|
*https://de.wikipedia.org/Wasserlinsen#/media/Datei:LemnaMinor.jpg page 7 |
|
|
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIDRFeaPFYg |
|
|
in german : |
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_van-G2HXs |
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7M-qcP_pDY |
|
|
--] (]) 02:07, 16 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:A photo of duckweed isn't 'research'. And YouTube videos aren't even remotely acceptable as sources in regards to any claims regarding medical efficacy. See ] for what would be required. ] (]) 17:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:This study evaluated the effects with arsenic-stressed duckweed (Lemna gibba L.). The test substances were applied and compared with controls (unsuccussed and succussed water) regarding their influence on the plant's growth rate. Duckweed was stressed with arsenic. Afterwards, plants grew in either potentized substances or water controls All experiments were randomized and blinded. |
|
|
*https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21057725/ |
|
|
--] (]) 19:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
* Junk primary research from dodgy publisher. Not usable. ] (]) 19:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:* Yep. ] is not a reliable source for what day it is, let alone science. ] 20:45, 15 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
OP, do not edit posts after they have been replied to. It makes following the flow of discussions impossible. ] (]) 02:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Sorry,i found the duckweed sources later. In Germany the work on duckweed is widely accepted. Critics wish the work on many labors. ] (]) 18:38, 18 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::{{tq|In Germany the work on duckweed is widely accepted}} Yes, the ] and other quackery lobby groups have been loud about it, and the coverage by journalists has been particularly gullible. But that is not what counts here. |
|
|
::That duckweed paper is a primary source, by at least one nominally incompetent author (a physicist). Not ] (read it). |
|
|
::There must be hundreds of bad studies on homeopathy, and you can probably find all of them in the archives because someone who is unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages standards wanted to include them. |
|
|
::{{tq|Critics wish the work on many labors}} I cannot parse that sentence. "Kritiker wünschen die Arbeit auf vielen Taten"? --] (]) 18:56, 18 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Kritiker wünschen sich die Arbeiten in vielen Laboratorien . |
|
|
:::*https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21057725/ |
|
|
:::*https://www.homoeopathie-online.info/wasserlinsen-experimente-zeigen-spezifische-effekte-von-hochverduennten-homoeopathika-interview-mit-dem-physiker-dr-stephan-baumgartner/ |
|
|
:::short: |
|
|
:::Critices wishes the work (independent of the) laboratory (from other universities) |
|
|
:::Kritiker wünschen die Arbeiten unabhänig zu bestätigen (in Laboratorien anderer Universitäten) |
|
|
:::long 1: |
|
|
:::*https://scilogs.spektrum.de/detritus/die-hom-opathischen-wissensfeinde-vom-bayerischen-rundfunk/ |
|
|
:::Dann kommt ein „spektakuläres Experiment“ mit Wasserlinsen, diesmal von Stephan Baumgartner der Uni Bern. Dieser versucht seit vielen Jahren mit verschiedensten Methoden Unterschiede zwischen homöopathisch verschütteltem und ganz friedlichem normalen Wasser herbeizumessen. Hier hat er kleine Wasserpflanzen mit Arsen vergiftet, um sie dann mit „potenziertem“ Arsen wieder zu heilen. Lassen wir mal außen vor, dass ein Patientengespräch mit Wasserlinsen noch schwieriger ist: Das Ergebnis wurde noch nie unabhängig bestätigt, also nehmen wir es einfach mal hin, ohne dass wir ihm viel Beachtung schenken müssen. |
|
|
:::long2: |
|
|
:::Es scheint angebracht, weitere Forschung zu betreiben, weil das, was im Moment vorliegt, nicht genügt und zu viele Fragen unbeantwortet lässt. Sollten unabhängig replizierte Studien mit veröffentlichten Daten tatsächlich zum Schluss kommen, es gebe Effekte, wäre dies allemal willkommen. Wer wäre denn ernsthaft dagegen, etwas Neues über die Welt zu lernen? |
|
|
:::*https://kritisch-denken.ch/ist-die-wirksamkeit-der-homoopathie-endlich-wissenschaftlich-bestatigt-und-heilt-homoopathie-krebs/ |
|
|
:::--] (]) 23:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Read ]. The material you have been linking does not comply, and '''will not be used in the article'''. ] (]) 23:39, 22 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Type 1 diabetes treatment == |
|
|
{{hat|Discussion closed. This talk page is ]}} |
|
|
Hello, |
|
|
I've been searching really hard for any other form of medication for Type 1 diabetes besides the blood testing and injections every single dday.And homeopathy was recommended. But I'm not seeing it being mentioned in all the information I've found so far. Can someone please help me with any info on this. ] (]) 12:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
* As the article says, homeopathy is not useful for any medical condition. And I would strongly suggest ''not'' using any alternative medical "remedies" for something as dangerous as diabetes - if there were any real alternative to the usual regimen, I'm sure it would be famous. ] 12:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*:I'd just like to register my strong agreement with Black Kite's response above. - ]the ] 12:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
*:Also, it would be wise to ignore all other advice from the person who recommended homeopathy. --] (]) 14:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
{{hab}} |
|
The article contains this statement:
"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance."
This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. Andrewbrink (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)