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== Mathematically impossible statement ==
== Homeopathy oldest European alternative medicine? ==


The article contains this statement:
The article states the following about Homeopathy: "Homeopathy, the longest established alternative medicine to come out of Europe," the source being a book on homeopathy.
"A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance."
This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. ] (]) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think.<span id="Usedtobecool:1722222132127:TalkFTTCLNHomeopathy" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;''']'''&nbsp;] 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)</span>
::No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --] (]) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. ] (]) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. ] (]) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::::The ''maths'' itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. ] 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::If this is all ], it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the ]— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is ''also'' incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. ] (]) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::::::It cites a source. ] (]) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::::::It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? ] (]) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
⚫ ::::::::I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: . --] (]) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)


== Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024 ==
How do we define something as established? Animal magnetism, for example, was created 20 years prior (in Vienna) and is still being practiced today in various countries in Europe (most prominently, it seems, in France), even if the term 'animal' has been dropped. It still has institutions. I would therefore consider it as a 'longer established alternative medicine to come out of Europe.'
{{collapse top|Collapse AI blather}}

{{edit semi-protected|Homeopathy|answered=yes}}
In the end it is but a detail, and homeopathy is without question much wider spread than magnetism. What do other things of this? ] (]) 12:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Misplaced Pages's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Misplaced Pages, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Misplaced Pages should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Misplaced Pages lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.
:Alternative medicine is simply stuff that is used as medicine but has no valid evidence of efficacy. So, humorism is alternative medicine now, although it was mainstream for centuries before homepathy was invented.
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:I think this claim is simply a meaningless ] and should be deleted. --] (]) 12:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
] (]) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
::I agree, the sentence is more factually correct (and concise) without this particular insertion.
:{{notdone}} Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. ] (]) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
::I am sure there is a debate to be had which form of complementary healthcare is the oldest, still established form coming from Europe--but this debate is largely inconsequential to the audience of this Misplaced Pages page. ] (]) 13:30, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
⚫ :::I agree, and I have removed it: . --] (]) 19:45, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

==Reverting deleting edits? ==
{{hat|Now-blocked user complaining about ] removals on this page. &mdash; <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 16:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)}}
Is it not against Misplaced Pages rules to delete contributions made by other users in the talk page ? If you dont agree with what I suggested just try to discuss it.. If discussion is difficult for you then try to educate yourselves ... a little about rules in elementery discourse... <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:It is not against Misplaced Pages rules to delete ] contributions. Your contribution had no useable suggestion for improving it. It would have been useable if you had included a new ] source. Omitting the "waah! waah! bias!" rhetoric would have been a plus too. See ] for other examples. --] (]) 08:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
{{hab}}

== Schools of Homeopathy in the US ==

https://homeopathy.org/homeopathic-education/homeopathic-schools-directory/ ] (]) 19:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
⚫ :]. ] (]) 19:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

== Evidence of scientific underpinning for homeopathic remedies ==
{{atop|Asked and answered. &mdash; <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 10:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)}}
please read and refer to The Memory of Water, which details the research done by a French Dr, and scientist who gives a very plausible explanation of the science supported by research and experiment. I am 69, have a masters degree and am not given to daft ideas. My children were treated with homeopathic remedies when they were little, which usually worked very well and were much safer than antibiotics. As a result they have very good immune systems. We are all becoming resistant to antibiotics and homeopathy represents a safe alternative.If it is possible to split or fuse atoms, why can the body which is 80% water, not respond on a molecular level to 'like cures like' treatments? Isn't that how vaccine works in a way? Please put both sides of the discussion. ] (]) 19:29, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
:Any proposal to such inclusion should be based on sources that satisfy ]. Without such sources this request is off-topic on this article talk page. - ] (]) 20:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
:When I was studying chemistry at university in the 1990s, we were taught that liquid water does indeed have a 'memory', of sorts, but it is one that lasts for a tiny fraction of a second. Quacks, charlatans and pseudoscientific snake oil salesmen have been relying on that sciencey-sounding phrase to hoodwink scientifically illiterate people into buying their faux remedies for decades. People are not healed by homeopathic remedies, they just get better naturally, just like people who don't take anything when they have a bit of a cold. (Antibiotics don't work on colds, flus and the like either, they are only effective against bacterial infections. And no, we aren't becoming resistant to them - it is the bacteria that are evolving and becoming resistant to them.) Homeopathy is mostly safe, in the sense that most of the remedies sold under the banner of homeopathy aren't actively poisonous; however, it is entirely ineffective, and giving people ineffective drugs when they have real ailments is, well, not ideal. There are no two 'sides' to this, at least in the scientific community, which unanimously accepts that there is no evidence that homeopathy is more effective in treating any ailment than a cup of tea and a bit of sympathy, and also unanimously accepts that there is no scientifically credible proposed mechanism by which it ''might'' work. At all. The other 'side' is the result of the marketing effort of what is a multi-billion dollar industry, selling ineffective treatments to people who don't know any better, which wants to keep doing that. We have a duty to reflect the scientific consensus view, and not to reflect the other one. ]] 20:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
:Even if there were no ] against using your own reasoning: Nobody who knows anything about how science works is impressed by people showing off their credentials or the credentials of somebody else, or by anecdotal evidence tainted by ] and ]. That "French Dr" is probably ] who was well-known for his gullibility regarding such things, and his "findings" have not been corroborated. --] (]) 06:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}

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References

  1. Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136.
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Mathematically impossible statement

The article contains this statement: "A 200C dilution of duck liver, marketed under the name Oscillococcinum, would require 10^320 universes worth of molecules to contain just one original molecule in the final substance." This does not make any sense. For one, the volume of diluent would have to be (literally) astronomically large. For two, I'm pretty sure no known scientific process achieves this level of purity. If homeopaths in fact claim to achieve this level of purity, I suppose that's just another false claim: but I don't think it should be treated as a fact. Andrewbrink (talk) 02:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

It's supposed to be earth atmoshpheres not "universes", I think. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 03:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
No, it's universes. The math is supposed to show how aburd homeopaths' claims are. Of course, homeopaths do not do the diluting all at once: take one "duck liver molecule" (whatever that may be) and 10^320 universes of water. They do it step by step, and in summary it amounts to that. --Hob Gadling (talk) 04:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
That's precisely the point, though: no human can perform a dilution "step by step" that achieves anything even remotely resembling 1 molecule in 1 galaxy's worth, much less 1 universe's worth. This 10^320 universes must come from bad math or some mistake somewhere. If the idea is to discredit homeopathy, it would be best not to do so with logically impossible math / physics. Andrewbrink (talk) 14:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Demonstrating that something is mathematically impossible seems to me to be a darned good way to discredit it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
The maths itself is correct - a 200C dilution is genuinely that small a resulting number of molecules. And it's actually not that difficult to dilute something to that level - it's only a 1:100 dilution performed 200 times. If you were diluting in bigger amounts of solvent you could do it very quickly. Black Kite (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
If this is all WP:OR, it doesn’t need to be included, mathematically sound or not. It’s like refuting creationism with the law of conservation of mass— you don’t need to prove something with no basis in science, that clearly is incompatible with science on a macroscopic scale (it doesn’t work) is also incompatible with science on a microscopic scale. That should be obvious. Dronebogus (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It cites a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
It still seems like kind of a strange statement to include for the same reason I already described. Does this help the reader understand the topic or just double down on the fact that homeopathy obviously has no basis in science in a weird, overly technical way? Dronebogus (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
I made this edit, to make clearer to readers that it isn't OR: . --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

Collapse AI blather
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This critique of homeopathy focuses on the system's funding, pseudo-scientific aspects, and the flaws in its purported benefits, rather than providing an objective overview of the system itself. It targets and undermines the supporters of homeopathy, leading me to question Misplaced Pages's reliability. For instance, some people assert that vaccines are scientifically proven to be beneficial, while others, presenting genuine cases of side effects, argue against them. If I were to present only one-sided arguments on Misplaced Pages, how would the extensive research in this field be valued? My concern is that Misplaced Pages should not provide a platform for biased views to propagate. The sheer number of references does not necessarily validate the claims, as opposing viewpoints are often supported by numerous sources as well. If Misplaced Pages lacks the ethical standards to prevent the publication of content without considering the writer's bias or without an editorial board to set boundaries, readers like me may lose trust in the platform.

118.148.126.228 (talk) 09:28, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Please use this template for precise editing requests on matters where consensus has been achieved. Bon courage (talk) 09:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
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