Talk:Don't ask, don't tell: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 16:05, 27 May 2006 editObiterDicta (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users4,874 edits Welcoming your feedback← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 02:37, 19 November 2024 edit undoNatGertler (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users44,285 edits →Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link: ReplyTag: Reply
(449 intermediate revisions by more than 100 users not shown)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Talk header}}
	I am trying to expand this article and introduce the situation of the homosexuality in U.S. army. Anyone knows this can help? a gay soldier is much more welcome! :) --] ] 17:12, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
			{{Article history
			\|itndate=13 October 2010
			\|itn2date=19 December 2010
			\|otd1date=2014-09-20\|otd1oldid=626339293
			\|otd2date=2017-09-20\|otd2oldid=801420645
			\|otd3date=2021-09-20\|otd3oldid=1045272375
			}}
			{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=B\|
			{{WikiProject Military history\|class=B
			<!-- B-Class 5-criteria checklist -->
			\|B1 <!-- Referencing and citations --> = yes
			\|B2 <!-- Coverage and accuracy --> = yes
			\|B3 <!-- Structure --> = yes
			\|B4 <!-- Grammar and style --> = yes
			\|B5 <!-- Supporting materials --> = yes\|US=yes}}
			{{WikiProject LGBT studies}}
			{{WikiProject Barack Obama\|importance=Low}}
			{{WikiProject United States\|importance=Mid\|USGov=yes\|USGov-importance=Mid}}
			{{WikiProject Law}}
			{{Wiki Loves Pride talk\|2016}}
			}}
			<!--- this measure was repealed by the Obama administration; see http://en.wikisource.org/The_Change.gov_Agenda for context --->
			{{User:MiszaBot/config
			\|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}}
			\|maxarchivesize = 45K
			\|counter = 4
			\|minthreadsleft = 5
			\|algo = old(60d)
			\|archive = Talk:Don't ask, don't tell/Archive %(counter)d
			}}

			{{archives\|search=yes\|index=/Archive index}}
	== Criticism of the policy ==
			{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn
			\|target=/Archive index
			\|mask=/Archive <#>
			\|leading_zeros=0
			\|indexhere=yes}}

			== External links modified ==
	The article states that many people who are both for and against tolerance of homosexuality criticize this policy, but only gives one quote in its appropriate section. Clearly this needs to be longer and needs to support the thesis at the beginning of the article.] 20:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	== to make this more encyclopaedic ==

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101019042618/http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal/ to http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	* There should be a page entitled ].
	* That page should link to this one, and absorb some of its content, in particular the section on
	other countries.
	* The section on other countries is currently a stub, and shoul be moved to the new article. What about non-Western countries?
	* The new article will link to similar articles on general polices

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	I am not the right person to make the above changes, as I cannot provide the necessary content.
	] 05:09, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 08:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
	:Leave it to the person who has more information to actually create that page. Increasing overall complexity of Misplaced Pages does not help users find content that is useful. Unless and until a user has information on the policies of the armed forces of other nations towards homosexuality and creates the proposed pages you've listed, this page should remain in place with its content intact. Don't go moving content around to just create many more stubs from one article which is reasonably encyclopedic. --] 23:12, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

	== ~~Updated~~ ~~information~~ ==		== External links modified ==
	I've been browsing through the SLDN site trying to find newer data than from 2000 for the table we've got. They have a bar-chart with totals for each year which I've introduced into the table, but the service branch breakdown is not included with the chart. If anyone can find the breakdown, please add it to the table.
	Also, discharges have been decreasing slowly since 2000 (787 in 2003 vs. nearly 1300 in 2000). I'm wondering if there's a been a policy-shift in the way discharges are carried out, if the emphasis on DADT has decreased, or if there's something else going on. I just don't know, and would value some input from someone who does. --] 23:15, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,
	==Removed==
	*"The policy is widely seen as a failure and opposed by pro and anti-gay advocates."
	Why was the above removed? As far as I know it is accurate. Though it is not cited neither are any contradicty assertions, and neither are there contradictory assertions. ] 02:44, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
	:Readded. ] 23:29, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

			I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
	== Don't ask? ==
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110120011130/http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/ to http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/

			When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
	The quote seems to describe the don't tell portion but I don't see a quote that forbids people from asking.
	Does the rule apply to stating ones heterosexuality? --] 14:21, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	== Discharges Decrease ==

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 11:25, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
	.....in wartime. So the statement that "....the discharges of homosexual service members actually seems to be increasing at a time when personnel shortages are severe enough that the active duty tours of many enlisted service members are being involuntarily extended" seems innacurate - the Washington Post article detailing this as a recent phenomenon also cites evidence of this occuring as far back as World War II, so this should be edited.
	See

			== Trac(e)y Thorne ==
	:This is also supported by the general trend: during wars, when we need soldiers, gay one's are fine. It's only when homeland security is not an issue that the US has time for anti-gay discrimination. ] 23:30, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

			{{ping\|2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75\|Gooner2004}}, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on ] which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.<br>I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 ''Virtual Equality'' mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on ], so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 ''Gay Rights, Military Wrongs'' mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ]]] seems to be meant. ] (]) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
	== "General" ==

			== NBC article ==
	Is the "General" section really important? Or even true? Don't Ask, Don't Tell has never, in my experience, been used outside the military, and is certainly not in common parlance.
			=== Redress ===

			{{quote\|Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22">https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104</ref>}}
	:Please sign your posts by adding <nowiki>-~~~~</nowiki> at the end. As a term, it is sometimes used outside the military, usually ironically. -] 18:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

			This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". ] (]) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
	== Last edit ==

			=== Ongoing discrimination ===
	The last edit (by Rocketfairy) is a little perplexing, and includes at least one statement that seems like thinly vieled editorializing: ''In this view, such an exclusion is indefensible on ethical and legal or Constitutional grounds, as individuals have a right to privacy and to express love for whomever they choose; "unit cohesion" arguments thus priviledge those intent on denying rights over those whose rights would be violated.'' The last part, in particular, steps outside the bounds of presenting an argument. --] 03:49, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

			{{quote\| LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22"/>}}

			This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". ] (]) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
	==Failure==
	*"The law is widely seen as a failure and opposed by pro and anti-gay advocates."

			{{reftalk}}
	How is this POV? It does not assert that the law is a failure, but that people of various POVs say so. ] 01:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

			== Misleading intro ==
	:It's not so much POV as weasely (see ]). It needs real sources. It may be true (esp. the second half) but I balk at including something as weasel-y as the first unsourced. ] (]) 03:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

			The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. ] (]) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
	::I think better question is: Who does like this policy? ] 08:59, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

			:It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --] (]) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
	==Butler==
	I'm not sure why it would be "unnecessary" to point out that the ban conflates speech and conduct. ] 01:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
	Also, if one is going to remove content with a citation from an article one should also remove the source at the bottom of the page. ] 01:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
	:This is more a matter of style, but I don't think poststructuralist critiques of ''anything'' have any business in a serious encyclopedia. (see ]) Furthermore, maybe I'm not subtle enough, but can you explain what she's ''saying'' in that snippet and what it has to do with the question at hand? ] (]) 03:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

			== Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link ==
	I'm also not sure what is "cryptic" about the Butler quote. ] 09:19, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
	:It's a bunch of ten-dollar words to explain a two-dollar idea that, if anything, belongs in a Criticism or Controversy section, not in the introduction. ] 07:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
	::Moved to the bottom of the page. Good riddance. ] (]) 01:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

			There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for ], a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for ], the LGBT rights activist. ] (]) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	== Recent article on support for HB 1059 ==

			:Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- ] (]) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
	Is opposition to the Military Readiness Enhancement Act really that weak? There is an article () saying that support may be strong in the ] --] 06:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

	== Moved from article ==

	I moved this section here because, hey, people, the article space isn't for talking to one-another, its for writing what should be a cohesive document. This looks more like an exercise in Hegelian dialectics.
	:This claim, however, does not address the argument that the policy's stated goal of preserving camraderie and unit cohesion would be just as hindered by an open profession of homosexuality as it would actual homosexual conduct within ranks, nor does it attempt to. This counter-claim does not address the argument that ending hatred and bigotry would be more beneficial to camraderie and unit cohesion then reinforcing those biases.
	-] 18:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

	== Moskos ==

	It may be worth mentioning that the sociologist who came up with this policy is Charles Moskos. Although technically retired, he is still teaching at Northwestern University, and his contact information can be found if you look in the Northwestern directory. I think he'll be willing to give you more information about all this.
	] 05:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)Mike

	==Title==
	Why isn't the title bolded anymore? ] 09:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

	:IE: View: Text: Size: Smallest. ] 07:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

	==Move elsewhere?==

	I was wondering if I'm totally out of line, or if someone else thinks the structure of this article is a little funny. Most of the article seems to be describing the history of the "gays in the military" debates, with only a small part devoted to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Maybe we should make ] a redirect to ] (or something similar; ] is currently a redirect to ], but based on my experience, the phrase "gays in the military" is used to describe the debate in the United States, whereas ] is a world-spanning article), opening this article up to a larger topic, and then, only if necessary, spinning ] off from it. -] 04:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

	== References and Sources for History ==

	What other references and sources do we need for this? The ''History'' section is a summary of the Shilts book, I read it. --] 07:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

	:I cited Shilts throughout the section except for the last two paragraphs which cite other sources. ] 06:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

	== pictures ==

	I appreciate the effort to put pictures on every article, but I think the pictures taken from the Field Manual seem to be implying something here that isn't quite realistic given the context they were originally published in. At the very least, they need recaptioning, but I don't think that with proper captions they'd be relevant to this article any more. ] 05:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

	:I removed the pictures. Even without them this article still has one picture. ] 06:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

	== Use in scholarly applications ==
	this article has been cited by the Dimensions of Culture Office of Thurgood Marshall College at University of California San Diego. I dont really know if theres an official tag or what, but maybe it should be locked or something. the link is http://marshall.ucsd.edu/current/doc/documents/Dont_ask.pdf
	] 06:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

	== "Anti advocate"? ==

	What is an anti-gay ''advocate'', exactly? What are they advocating?

	Suggest change to "activist". --] 04:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

	==Edits==
	The following explains some of the edits I made to the article:

	:1. Replaced (ibid) with {{fact}} where appropriate. Some of the paragraphs cited this way concerned events that occurred after the Shilts book was published and could not have been discussed therein.

	:2. Deleted references to harrassment being common currently after DADT. The only source for this was the Shilts book, which was published in 1994, the year after the policy was put in place. It would benefit the article to include a discussion of harrassment in the 10 years since DADT implemented. It would be better if we were more specific than "common."

	:3. Deleted discussion of lesbian harrassment. Conduct described seems more like it could be directed at women in general, not just at lesbians. However, if someone has a source that says that this is more likely to be directed at women suspected of being lesbians, I could support inclusion. However, the motivation of the harrasser seems relevant given the context of the paragraph: is this a specific attempt to harrass lesbians to leave the service or are they merely subjected to this because they are particularly vulnerable?
	--] 16:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:37, 19 November 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Don't ask, don't tell article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 2 months

	News items involving this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on October 13, 2010, and December 19, 2010.
	Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 20, 2014, September 20, 2017, and September 20, 2021.

This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: North America / United States

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force

LGBTQ+ studies

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies

Barack Obama (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Barack Obama, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Barack ObamaWikipedia:WikiProject Barack ObamaTemplate:WikiProject Barack ObamaBarack Obama

United States: Government Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as Mid-importance).

Law

	Law portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Wiki Loves Pride

This article was created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride, 2016.Wiki Loves PrideWikipedia:Wiki Loves PrideTemplate:Wiki Loves Pride talkWiki Loves Pride

Archives

Index

Archive 1	Archive 2	Archive 3
Archive 4

This page has archives. Sections older than 60 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Don't ask, don't tell. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101019042618/http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal/ to http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110120011130/http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/ to http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:25, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Trac(e)y Thorne

@2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75 and Gooner2004:, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on Tracy Thorne-Begland which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.
I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 Virtual Equality mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer, so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 Gay Rights, Military Wrongs mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ] seems to be meant. -sche (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

NBC article

Redress

Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". Zazpot (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing discrimination

LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". Zazpot (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

^ https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104

Misleading intro

The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. Prinsgezinde (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link

There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for Choi Daniel, a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for Dan Choi, the LGBT rights activist. Tommymunkey (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Categories: