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== Relaxation on restrictions == == External links modified ==


Hello fellow Wikipedians,
DADT was a relaxation of old restrictions against homosexuals in the military. Why do we see so much commentary that acts as if DADT _established_ restrictions against gays in the military, when what it actually did was relax them? The law against homosexuals in the military was enacted in the '50s. The "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy of President Clinton said: from now on it's OK for homosexuals to serve in the military, where formerly it was forbidden, as long as they don't talk about it. Before that, they could be kicked out of the military if their sexual orientation came to light, even if no one had talked about it. I just edited a weird passage in this article that said the restrictions against gays in the military were put in place in 1993. The truth is, they were put in place in the '50s, and the DADT policy of 1993 rolled them back. ] (]) 21:42, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
:Your recent edit was fine but re your "Why do we see so much commentary" it's not clear if you have an issue with the article as it stands or are just complaining in general. ] (]) 22:34, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
::He does have a point about how the policy may have been misunderstood. Some people ignorant of how the ban originally started may assume DADT started the ban and prior to that you could be openly gay. In reality prior to DADT's passing in 1993 the military had a policy in place where your command could explicitly ask you if you was gay and put you out if you said yes. Also, enlistment papers asked you if you was gay as well, meaning you would have to lie to enlist, opening you to possible fraudulent enlistment charges. After DADT started the rules against homosexuality didn't change but the policy made it illegal for the military to ask you if you was gay without evidence, allowing someone in the closet to serve without having to lie as long as they keep things private. In all honesty, calling it the "DADT Repeal" would technically be incorrect since if DADT was the only thing repealed then it would still be against policy to serve if you aren't straight. Calling it the "DADT Repeal" is just more simple than calling it the "Homosexual and Bisexual Activity Ban Repeal." ] (]) 07:02, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
:::Frankly we're still light on the history of the thing. In Clintons first days he pushed so that gays could serve fully OPENLY in the military. The DADT position was an eventual retreat after getting beat up by congress. The current line "The policy was introduced as a compromise measure in 1993 by President Bill Clinton who campaigned in 1992 on the promise to allow all citizens to serve in the military regardless of sexual orientation" gives short shrift to that aspect of the history. A more full recounting is described by The Atlantic ''The big debate at the start of Bill Clinton's first term was whether the new president would order the military to end its long-standing policy banning gays, and amid a bipartisan backlash, Clinton struck a compromise resulting in the policy–now infamous in some quarters–of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."''<ref>http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/the-awkward-clinton-era-debate-over-dont-ask-dont-tell/381374/</ref> ] (]) 07:35, 21 May 2016 (UTC)


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== Timothy R. McVeigh ==
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101019042618/http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal/ to http://www.hrcbackstory.org/2010/04/religious-organizations-support-%E2%80%9Cdon%E2%80%99t-ask-don%E2%80%99t-tell%E2%80%9D-repeal


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Is there any reason why ] isn't included in this article about DADT? Supposedly he was the first one to ever win a case against the government for violating DADT. ] (]) 03:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


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:You appear to have a point. I'll investigate this week. But at first glance it appears that McVeigh did not challenge the policy itself. It seems he objected to how the Navy learned he was gay, that he never actually "told" anyone, and that the Navy pursued him. In other words, his complaint was that the Navy did not properly adhere to DADT. There still might be a place for his story. And I'd prefer not to lose the info, since the notability of McVeigh's WP entry has been challenged. ] (]) 20:41, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 08:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
::After some thought, I thoroughly revised ]. He really doesn't meet notability guidelines, but the lawsuit does. It's now '']''. I'll add it to DADT next. ] (]) 00:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

:::Done. ] ] (]) 18:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

== Section DADT Debated could use a bit more balance ==

The section on the debate of the DADT policy after it was implemented could use a bit more balance. It talks too much about the people who wanted it repealed and not enough about the people who thought it shoudl stay. Specifically I feel that it could use more positive responses to the policy from whoever thought it was a good idea, as well as their responses to the people who wanted it repealed. Some of that is in the section on the chaplains, but I'm sure there's more general stuff you could use. I don't know enough about this issue to be a good editor on this article, but I'd love it if this kind of info made its way in. ] (]) 20:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


== External links modified == == External links modified ==
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100704215220/http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/DOD1332.14.html to http://dont.stanford.edu/regulations/DOD1332.14.html *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110120011130/http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/ to http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2011/01/military-bill-to-delay-dadt-repeal-011411w/
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Cheers. —]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 23:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC) Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 11:25, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


== External links modified == == Trac(e)y Thorne ==


{{ping|2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75|Gooner2004}}, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on ] which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.<br>I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 ''Virtual Equality'' mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on ], so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 ''Gay Rights, Military Wrongs'' mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ]]] seems to be meant. ] (]) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,


== NBC article ==
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=== Redress ===
*Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110921162508/http://www.newsobserver.com:80/2011/07/16/1348024/court-dont-ask-dont-tell-will.html to http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/16/1348024/court-dont-ask-dont-tell-will.html


{{quote|Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22">https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104</ref>}}
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This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". ] (]) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
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=== Ongoing discrimination ===
Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 08:56, 27 February 2016 (UTC)


{{quote| LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.<ref name="nbc-2020-12-22"/>}}
== External links modified ==


This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". ] (]) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,


{{reftalk}}
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== Misleading intro ==
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The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. ] (]) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
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Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 19:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

Hello fellow Wikipedians,


:It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --] (]) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
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== Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link ==
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There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for ], a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for ], the LGBT rights activist. ] (]) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
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:Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- ] (]) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 05:55, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

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Trac(e)y Thorne

@2601:5c1:4501:e277:39fd:3a97:5538:aa75 and Gooner2004:, regarding /: because there's no source after the sentence, it's hard for me to tell which spelling is correct. We do have an article on Tracy Thorne-Begland which notes that he criticized the Navy's policy of excluding gays, outed himself, and was discharged in the 1990s.
I see a "Tracey Thorne" mentioned as being discharged in a few books, e.g. Urvashi Vaid's 2015 Virtual Equality mentions "Tracey Thorne and Greta Cammermeyer", but that also spells Cammermeyer's name differently than our article on Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer, so I wouldn't count on it for spelling. And "Tracy Thorne" with no "e" is mentioned in books as being discharged for being gay, e.g. Craig A. Rimmerman's 2013 Gay Rights, Military Wrongs mentions "the many public/media appearances of Keith Meinhold, Tracy Thorne," and others. Absent a source indicating that a different TT was meant, I think the IP seems to be right and ] seems to be meant. -sche (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

NBC article

Redress

Most people that got out under ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ can get their discharges upgraded from general discharge to honorable discharge

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Redress". Zazpot (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Ongoing discrimination

LGBTQ veterans who were discharged under 'dont ask, don’t tell' still do not get access to medical care, the GI Bill and military pensions.

This point should probably be mentioned in the article, e.g. under a section called "Ongoing discrimination". Zazpot (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/decade-after-don-t-ask-don-t-tell-repeal-hurtful-n1252104

Misleading intro

The intro, especially with the added "instituted during the Clinton administration" in the first line, is very misleading. It fails to mention that Clinton and the other Democrats were campaigning for full tolerance of non-straight people but made this as a compromise to the Republicans who objected to that. It also fails to mention that before it, gays were barred from the military altogether. Prinsgezinde (talk) 20:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

It does mention that the law was a "relaxation of legal restrictions on service by gays and lesbians in the armed forces"; the intro focuses on the what and when of the topic of the article. The full history of how we got to that place, with who was for and against it, is for the article itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Misplaced Pages Link

There is an incorrect link for Daniel Choi in the 'Court Challenges' section of the article, in the second paragraph under 'Log Cabin Republicans v. United States of America'. It lists the name of "Daniel Choi" and includes a link to the Misplaced Pages article for Choi Daniel, a Korean actor. It should instead link to the article for Dan Choi, the LGBT rights activist. Tommymunkey (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch. Fixed. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
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