| Revision as of 05:39, 12 July 2021 editFirefangledfeathers (talk | contribs)Administrators31,647 editsm adding two {{rlt}} templates to keep refs where they belong← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:55, 23 November 2024 edit undoRichard Nevell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,156 edits →Sources on these subjects: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
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{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Boise_State_University/HIST_319_Postwar_Europe_(Summer) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2019-05-13 | end_date = 2019-07-01 }} |
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== "after being thrown out of a first-floor window." == |
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The phrase "after being thrown out of a first-floor window" is confusing. Is it a British English "first floor" ie "second floor" in American English or the "first floor in American English ie the "ground floor" in British English? -- ] (]) 23:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC) |
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==Revert== |
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I reverted most part of (a single edit of a red-linked account, possibly a sock of user YMB29). No, this is not properly sourced. Two paragraphs were "referenced" to . The last one was sourced to a book, but without pages, and I could not find cited text. ] (]) 03:02, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|My very best wishes}} I can look for the Information with the way back machine and what page number that is on] (]) 03:07, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:: by any reasonable account. Do you agree? Book - we must check what it actually tells, I could not find this claim in the book at all. ] (]) 03:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} what I mean is I will look for was stated and find the source for it yes I agree 404 error is not a source] (]) 03:22, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::Yes, I can see that you found correct links, but none of them qualify as RS, but rather as propaganda-style opinion pieces published in newspapers that are much worse than Daily Mail, and most of them by people no one knows about (like Дарья Горчакова, Сергей Турченко, etc.). In particular, these sources do not qualify as RS : . Do you know Russian (all of them are Russian language source), can you evaluate their reliability, and do you insist they qualify as RS? ] (]) 17:41, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::Also, you titled text referenced to such sources as "studies". Those are not studies. You need strong academic sources to call something "studies". ] (]) 17:53, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} Hello I hope you are having a good night or day wherever you are. I did use a proper translation tool and they are quoting Russian scholars on the Subject and 5 other Sources are using news articles and one of them is using the one that used.] (]) 18:16, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::Are you saying that Дарья Горчакова, Сергей Турченко who signed these opinion pieces are Russian scholars?? Whatever was sourced to BBC is fine - I agree. ] (]) 18:19, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::The people who Gave their opinions what if we change it to scholarly opinions that way it's in the sources Voice not Misplaced Pages's. Could we compromise to that so we can have all the sources from different opinions since 5 other Sources are using news articles and one of them is using the one that used.] (]) 18:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::Yes, these comments are just personal opinions on the internet by a couple of guys no one knows about. ] (]) 19:24, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} what if we change it to opinions on the subject Since some are news articles on the subject and we only quote two other Russian scholars,] (]) 18:33, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss, |
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*Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions,so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.] (]) 18:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC)) |
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*According to Russia historian A. Dyukov:" The Germans did not experience a fraction of the horror that their soldiers staged in the East. Despite some excesses, which were firmly suppressed by the Command, the Red Army as a whole behaved toward the people of the Reich with humanity". The Russian soldiers are credited with feeding the German population, rescuing children, and helping to restore normal life in the country. |
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*Colonel Ivan Busik, Director of Russia's Institute of Military History, cited Soviet Army General Ivan Tretiak, who said there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. |
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Tell me what you think how does the edit look to you? ] (]) 18:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::We are talking about 3 different sources/links (see above), not 5. If there are two more, please tell what they are. Those 3 clearly do not qualify as RS for this page. An opinion by Dykov (if it were reliably sourced, but it is not) might be placed to a page about him, not here, since he is a fringe author. "you are making enemies" is a confrontational comment on your part, sorry. ] (]) 19:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:Jack, you need to take a step back and listen to the editor My very best wishes, she knows RS sources, when it comes to Soviet/Russian material. BBC is okay. If it was added in the past by YMB29 and you have reintroduced it, then it certainly should be reverted. I leave it to the two of you at this point to work out. ] (]) 19:09, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} what I trying to say with The BRD page is that I am ready to listen to what you have to say about this and work this out. and Most people would not who know Oleg Rzheshevsky is either. that why I was thinking what if we just quote Makhmut Akhmetovich Gareyev Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR.? |
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(According to Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR Ivan Tretiak, said there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent. The work of Beevor and others alleging mass rape is characterized by Tretiak as "filthy cynicism, because the vast majority of those who have been slandered cannot reply to these liars.)] (]) 19:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|My very best wishes}} It is showing the reader the opinion of someone of was a higher up in the USSR about the mass rapes what do you think about this? maybe in the Memoirs part of page?] (]) 19:53, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::If you want to quote an opinion by an expert, his opinion should be reliably sourced to secondary RS. It was not. Another question if an opinion by this person qualify as "fringe" or not, and if it really provides an important information about the subject. ] (]) 20:02, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::Just to clarify, the war rapes in Berlin and other parts of Germany were well documented and essentially a matter of fact. Any source that flatly deny it (for example, "not a single case of violence") should be viewed as "fringe". The exact numbers and details may be disputable ] (]) 20:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} Ok I was thinking Since they were memories I can put them in the memory section like this, |
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*According to Mahmoud Gareev, Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR: |
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he had not heard about sexual violence. He said that after what the Nazis did to Russia, excesses were likely to take place, but that such cases were strongly suppressed and punished, and were not widespread. He notes that the Soviet military leadership on 19 January 1945 signed an executive order calling on the avoidance of a rough relationship with the local .Gareyev said that Beevor copied Goebbel's propaganda about the "aggressive sexuality of our soldier |
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*According to General Ivan Tretiak: |
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there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent. The work of Beevor and others alleging mass rape is characterized by Tretiak as "filthy cynicism, because the vast majority of those who have been slandered cannot reply to these liars. |
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{{ping|My very best wishes}} The rapes did happen I do not denial them that I why am asking. If you are ok if I pit the memories in to that part of the page, Since it shows the reader what Higher ups who were there thought about what happened with the Rapes] (]) 20:29, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:Saying that the subject of Soviet rapes during occupation of Germany is "Goebbel's propaganda" (view by ]) is a ] view. But in any event you would need a secondary source better than . ] (]) 00:33, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::Then what about just quoting the post-war memory and not the secondary opinion they give? that'source is also used on this page besides for those two people.] (]) 00:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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*According to Mahmoud Gareev, Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR: |
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he had not heard about sexual violence. He said that after what the Nazis did to Russia, excesses were likely to take place, but that such cases were strongly suppressed and punished, and were not widespread. He notes that the Soviet military leadership on 19 January 1945 signed an executive order calling on the avoidance of a rough relationship with the locals |
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*According to General Ivan Tretiak: |
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there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent |
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:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} can we agree on quoting just the memories they give and not the opinion? Since Anthony B is not a post war memory ? in memory's part of page] (]) 00:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I see that you did a compromise are you OK with the one I did?] (]) 00:57, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::No, because you create "false balance" -see ]. The view by Gareev might be included (because you insist) only very briefly - as I did. If you want to include more memoirs, I can only support it. But those should be actual memoirs, , not the official views by Soviet generals or something censored by ].] (]) 01:01, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} I removed that one and left the actual memory of a general who was interviewed about it is that one ok?] (]) 01:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::No, you did something opposite. You removed a brief summary of his fringe views/opinion, but instead provided long quotation - see WP:GEVAL. That's why we should use ''scholarly sources on the subject'', and this is not Gareev. One could use by ] who is indeed a Russian scholar on the history of WWII. ] (]) 01:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} I did remove Gareev and left the post war memory of Ivan Tretiak if you are not ok with that I will remove it.] (]) 01:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I think one should either remove the views by Tretiak and Gareev or describe them very briefly. I can fix it later. ] (]) 01:27, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I did Shorten it, what were you thinking of doing?] (]) 01:55, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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*''there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years'' |
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*I did not add this in to make it shorter |
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(However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent)] (]) 01:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:Look, you just placed unreliably sourced and completely false claims by Tretiak and Gareev to the page. They either do not belong at all to the page as "fringe" or should be mentioned exactly as I did , i.e. very briefly per ]. If you want to use "Russian sources", that's fine. Use by ]. Or you can use these English language books: , ] (]) 03:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I did say what was in the source it did say that in the source. How would you write it? for the memory's section to keep it Very brief? I did look over the solonin source I would like to see what you would put for the memory's part of page ] (]) 04:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I found a better source it is from Elinor florence,] (]) 05:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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(Elinor Florence grew up on a Saskatchewan grain farm, a former World War Two training airfield near North Battleford. |
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*After earning her English degree at the University of Saskatchewan, she studied journalism at Carleton University. She launched her career at her hometown newspaper The Battlefords Advertiser-Post, followed by The Western Producer in Saskatoon, The Red Deer Advocate in Alberta, The Winnipeg Sun in Manitoba, and The Province in Vancouver, British Columbia. |
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*Weary of city life, Elinor and her husband moved their young family to the mountain resort town of Invermere, British Columbia. For the next eight years, she was a regular writer for Reader’s Digest.) |
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and she Interviews people who lived Through world war 2 is this source ok with you?] (]) 05:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|My very best wishes}} and that probably is a sock puppet they posted the Same stuff I will Report Since you said it may be a banned user] (]) 05:11, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::<s>My Very Best Wishes, your edits come across as problematic because all you've done is delete material from another point of view. There are allegations of massive, extraordinary sexual violence by Russian soldiers during WW2 but it's an indisputable fact that many people dispute the allegations. |
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::Your insistence that svpressa.ru (Svobodnaya Pressa) is somehow flawed and cannot be used in the article is not something that is held by researchers and experts concentrating on Russia. Svobodnaya Pressa is cited in "Russia’s New Ground Forces: Capabilities, Limitations and Implications for International Security" Bronk cited from Svobodnaya Pressa in particular. The contents of the material on svpressa as cited in this article also appears on the web portal of the |
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::'''Look, you just placed unreliably sourced and completely false claims by Tretiak and Gareev to the page.''' |
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::They were there and accurately reported what they witnessed, like it or not. |
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::'''That's why we should use scholarly sources on the subject, and this is not Gareev.''' |
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Svetlana Alexeevich is not a scholarly source. You insist on leaving out the observations of Tretiak and Gareev because they dispute the narratives that you endorse, but you're perfectly perfectly cool with leaving intact the non-scholarly content of authors like Alexeevich. That's inconsistent and partisan.</s>] (]) 05:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:A scholar citing an extremely unreliable source X (X could be something like ] or whatever) does not prove X is an RS. This is easy to fix. I will do it later. ] (]) 14:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} The source I put was from a reliable source for the Memories part of page. were you acknowledging the other person?] (]) 16:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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*Elinor Florence is an author and journalist. Before publishing her bestselling novel, Bird’s Eye View, she edited several daily newspapers and wrote for many publications, including Reader’s Digest Canada. Elinor lives in Invermere, British Columbia.https://www.dundurn.com/authors/Elinor-Florence] (]) 16:51, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::Yes, she might be a good author (I have no idea), but the source you cited is blog: . Also, there is a huge number of eyewitness accounts. I do not mind citing a few, but they should be just a few and cited from ''books'' by notable authors like Aleksievich (a Nobel prize winner) or historians who wrote multiple books on WWII like Solonin. ] (]) 14:16, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::<s> @ My Very Best Wishes, you have expressed further partisanship and outright double standards. Essentially, your viewpoint is, "Russians are bad guys who do bad things." My friend, you're perfectly entitled to believe whatever you want, but you can't go around smearing credible sources who've commented on this topic as "unreliable". You're also missing the point completely. Svobodnaya Pressa is not the point at all, the point is that it cites completely credible sources such as Gareev, who has a PHD in history and military science and is the president of Russia's Academy of Military Sciences. Gareev participated in the frickin' war and was in Germany at the time these alleged events happened. He's the author of "M.V. Frunze: military theorist", "The ambiguous pages of the war: essays on the problematic issues of the history of the Great Patriotic War" and also the author of "If War Comes Tomorrow?: The Contours of Future Armed Conflict". The dudeis an accomplished scholar and a war veteran, so I reckon there is probably no one on the planet more qualified to comment on this issue than he. |
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:::You have also completely misrepresented what Gareev, Tretiak and other sources said said. Gareev was frickin' there, you weren't there, and you have no authority to smear him as fringe: "Лично я участвовал в освобождении Восточной Пруссии. Говорю как на духу: о сексуальном насилии тогда даже не слышал" - HE DID NOT SAY that not a single case of abuse or violence never took place in occupied Germany!!!!!!!!</s>] (]) 04:08, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::"your viewpoint is...". No, I do not have such viewpoint. As about Garrev, yes, as you cited, he said "I have never ever even heard about the sexual violence during this time ]". He contradicts all others and even himself (he tells about orders in the Soviet Army to prevent it). His writings are NOT a credible source about anything. ] (]) 14:16, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::::<s>You quoted only passages from Alexevich's book that makes Russian soldiers look aggressive and violent while simultaneously removing a passage from the very same book illustrating that Russian troops showed compassion and humanity towards local Germans. This indicates that there is a bias from you. |
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:::::You again distorted, misrepresented, and falsified what Gareyev said. He did not say, "Not a single case of violence ever took place in occupied Germany". What he stated was, "Personally, I participated in the liberation of East Prussia. I speak as if in spirit: I didn’t even hear about sexual violence then." He talked solely about his experiences and thoughts during the liberation of East Prussia. And the fact that he did not witness or experience mistreatment of German locals in 1945 does not mean that he wasn't exposed to such stories after the war in 1946, 1947, 1948 or 2011. He didn't contradict himself at all. Observing a Soviet policy designed to punish and prevent mistreatment of German locals absolutely does not mean that he contradicted himself when he stated that he personally did not witness mistreatment and violence towards German civilians in 1945. |
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:::::'''"His writings are NOT a credible source about anything"''' |
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:::::Your understanding of history, historiography, as well as the use and credibility of sources isn't particularly sophisticated. To assert that Gareev is not a credible source on anything is not only dishonest, but also demonstrates a lack of intelligence. This is from the into to his book: "The appearance of General Makhmut Gareev's book on the contours of future armed conflicts is timely...Gareev has authored a well-crafted study of those contours, focusing on the political, economic, social, and technological trends which will affect the evoluton of military artof the next ten to fifteen years. The book is a well-argued case of the need for foresight to guide military doctrine, force structure, and force development...General Gareev, one of the leading theorists of the Soviet Union and Russian Federation, brings to his chosen topic a wealth of practical experience as a soldier, trainer, military historian, and forecaster"</s>] (]) 23:03, 14 September 2019 (UTC) |
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Regarding addition, I think it is correct to add witness testimonies telling both about rapes and about the absence thereof, as well as about the measures taken by Soviet authorities. However, I think all quotes should significantly cut in size. |
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I also find some sources are hardly reliable. Whereas Gareev is quite notable author (he is cited by, e.g. David Glantz), this particular statement was found in some obscure web site. I failed to find an independent confirmation of these words published in reliable peer-reviewed sources. A better reference would be desirable, otherwise, I would suggest to remove it. The same is true about - a brief look at the main page demonstrates that it is hardly reliable. If some information deserves to be included in this article, it is quite possible to find another, more reliable, source saying the same. |
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I also think it would be correct to place Solzhenitsyn's words about revenge in a historical context: it is quite correct that Soviet propaganda declared the goal "to kill Germans". However, it is necessary to keep in mind that time when this slogan was invented: it was a time when any German a Soviet citizen could have met was a legitimate military target (all Germans were either military, or auxiliary personnel). Later, when the hostilities moved to German territory, the focus of propaganda has changed, however, that was not done timely. --] (]) 23:31, 14 September 2019 (UTC) |
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== Article being flagged for copyright problems == |
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Not sure if it's because of quote spam or just out right copy pasting...but it needs to be addressed before someone puts it up for deletion. Pls refer to for the different copyright concerns.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Moxy}}, that link looks like it copied from the Misplaced Pages article (specifically ]), rather than the other way around. – ]] 03:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::That is possible. ..but there are 7 links to different sites....need to click every example. If you compare it to a copy from last year we don't get such a warning.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:33, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|Moxy}}, just checked all of them - they're all either quotes or copies from our article. – ]] 03:40, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::So it's quote spamming causing the problem.....should fix the lazy additions since last year as per ]. I will take a look.... first we should fix the sourcing problem.... Old topic like this has many academic publications to use.... simply no need for dead websites.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::I agree with Bradv: there was no copyright violation; this is obvious. As about the quotations, see may comments above. This is mostly a sourcing problem. In particular "Sex liberation and erotic myths... " by Сергей Турченко no one knows about is not an appropriate source for this page. This revert made 4 times by user Jack90s15 in violation of 3RR rule) is not fixing a vandalism by an IP, but insertion of poorly sourced content. ] (]) 14:33, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} It was on there for a while and no one seemed to have a problem with soviet field reports the same source is still used on the page that's why I asked for page protection. I am not here to make enemies with people the Copyright problem was here before me I hope we can all work this out.] (]) 16:30, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::No, it was only just a few day ago when you created such section . Regardless, it does not matter for how long the poorly sourced materials were on a page. The longer the worse. ] (]) 16:39, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} For the time it was it was a while but I don't want to argue about this I want to work to together on this with you can we? ] (]) 16:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Sure. Please ] if you want to include this content. ] (]) 16:57, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} I added the war time memory that was from the same Book that is used for the other two] (]) 22:28, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::This text was included in a single edit made by a suspicious red linked account . Unless you can personally check the cited Russian original and confirm translation, this should be removed. I read the book and do not remember it there. ] (]) 22:46, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} Do you think that was from a Sock to that banned user? ] (]) 23:42, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::Yes, possibly. Someone created an account to make a single edit in an article on a highly contentious subject. As a rule of thumb, you should never restore edits made by such accounts if the edits are removed by other contributors, unless you personally checked the underlying sources and can evaluate their reliability. Otherwise, you are guilty of ]. ] (]) 23:59, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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If this is about the Aleksvich book then please provide the appropriate page number for the quote - it's not on page 236 and I can't find the quote using searches .<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:59, 8 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:This is probably a translation of an older edition of the book where all content related to this subject was censored. Unfortunately, I do not have newer edition (in Russian) handy. ] (]) 00:11, 9 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I added what is used on the Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn page for the Eyewitness accounts and added the proper Attribution] (]) 00:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC) |
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:::<s>What's going on here is ugly. Alexeivich absolutely did not intend to write a book portraying her compatriots as monsters, but the careless and cherry-picked reading of it by the pharmacological researcher with his "rUsSiAnS r bAd" perspective tries to portray the book as such. The 2013 edition of Alexievich's contains: |
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:::Вспоминает Вера Павловна Бородина, младший сержант, телеграфистка: |
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:::«Немцев пугали, что мы звери. Они топились, перерезали себе вены. Целыми семьями. Мы их отхаживали… Остановились в одном доме. Пусто. Хозяев нашли на чердаке — мать и дочь. Они повесились, потому что их убедили, что, как только придут русские, начнется изнасилование, грабеж, убийство, Сибирь, лагеря…И вдруг этого ничего нет! А им было известно, во что превращен Сталинград, во что превращена вся Россия, им показывали в кино. И они, конечно, предполагали, что все это начнется теперь на немецкой земле. Для них было удивительным отсутствие у нас мести. Раз зашли в дом, хотели чаю попить. Много домов стояло пустых, они все бросали и убегали. Мы давай искать чашки, находим сервиз и видим рисунок наш — знакомые колоски такие… Читаем: „СССР, г. Одесса“. Мы так чай и не попили…»<ref>http://loveread.ec/view_global.php?id=28329</ref> |
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:::"Junior Sergeant Vera Pavlovna Borodina, telegraph operator, recalls: "The Germans were told that we were beasts to frighten them They drowned themselves or cut their veins, whole families at a time We nursed them back to health... Once we stopped in an empty house We found the owners a mother and daughter in the attic. Thet had hanged themselves, because they were convinced that, as soon as the Russians came, rape, pillage and murder would begin, that they would be sent to camps in Siberia.And then nothing of the kind happened! But they knew what Stalingrad had been fined into, what the whole of Russia had been turned into, they had been shown it in the cinema. And, of course, they imagined that the same thing would happen now on German soil. Our refusal to take revenge amazed them."</s>] (]) 22:44, 14 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::::That is correct. By the way, the wave of suicides before the advancing Red Army is a . It would be correct to collect quotes ''pro et contra''. However, we cannot inflate the article, and cannot provide to many quotes.--] (]) 23:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC) |
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::Let's not create a quotation farm from a single book. While a couple of quotations from the book of A (included long time ago) are fine, including this third long quotation, which is not a particularly informative, is over the top. Hence removed. ] (]) 18:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC) |
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{{rlt}} |
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== Edits by Moxy == |
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== Beevor == |
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This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II: |
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Hi {{u|Moxy}}. Regarding your {{diff|diff=1004175389|label=edit}} |
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The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&. |
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Ericsson&Simonsen say: |
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:"''...Beevor presented ostensibly new research on mass rapes. His figures, however, had been published in 1992 by the German team of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr''". |
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I am going to replace Beevor (and mass-media that cite him) with the original secondary source. ] (]) 02:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== The US rape section does not accurately describe the larger estimate. == |
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{{quote|Some Russian historians disagree, claiming that the Soviet leadership took some action.<ref>{{cite book|title=Women and War|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lyZYS_GxglIC&pg=PA480|year=2006|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=978-1-85109-770-8|pages=480–}}</ref>}} |
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Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable. |
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I checked page 480 of the reference and it does not support this claim. First, it says nothing about Russian historians. Second, it says the opposite about taking action. For example, it quotes McLynn: |
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However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape. |
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{{quote|Beginning in East Prussia in January 1945, reaching a crescendo in the two-week battle for Berlin and continuing after the end of hostilities, rape ran at epidemic levels. The Red Army’s officers had neither the will nor inclination to stop it. During the battle, 130,000 women were raped, 10 percent of whom committed suicide. In the 1945 campaign in Germany, Beevor establishes, with unimpeachable scholarship, that at least 2 million women were ravished, many in gang rapes.}} |
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She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes" |
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As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth." |
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and it also says: |
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Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. ] (]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC) |
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{{quote|Anthony Beevor emphasizes that the wave of rape during the initial occupation stemmed from revenge but then became a case of “the spoils going to the victor.” Stalin and other official sknew of the problem but took no major action to halt it.}} |
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== Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed == |
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Can you please clarify? ] (]) 23:03, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone". |
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I added one source that does talk about how the Soviet leadership did take some action about the rape. From the bcc that as been on here for years also, no need to quote the same information two times.] (]) 23:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology). |
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"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
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The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sources on these subjects == |
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:I added the relevant section of the BBC article and removed the duplicate sentence. ] (]) 23:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC) |
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: I added some more to opening and thanks for fixing the duplicate sentence.] (]) 00:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC) |
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Not to demean the topic, but I'm skeptical of the source for 1.9 million people being assaulted in Silesia, I feel there has to be more sources since this is an enormous number. ] (]) 17:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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{{rlt}} |
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:Exactly, it needs to be fixed. ] (]) 10:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Methodology == |
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:Where does the article give that figure for Silesia? ] (]) 11:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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For obvious reasons, this topic is infinitely fraught and infinitely complicated {These two articles are not irrelevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria - https://en.wikipedia.org/Satanic_ritual_abuse}, and perhaps discussing its methodology is more important than discussing what are taken to be facts? Incidentally, something I only know from the hearsay of a German woman born in 1942 is that the Americans in her sector didn't spare German Jews. Also, I feel uneasy about the article being so disconnected from the context of rape of Russian women by Germans during the German invasion of Russia. ] (]) 13:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2024 == |
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== Unreliable source == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Rape during the occupation of Germany|answered=yes}} |
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I’ve found that author Walter S. Zapotoczny, Jr. has very poor book reviews on Amazon, some of his books being rated as low as 1/5 or 2/5. The reviews generally criticise his works for being poorly written, not providing a comprehensive review of the topic, and filling many pages with appendixes and trivial information. I’ve haven’t looked into the books my self; I thought I’d post this here as a warning, and maybe someone can do a source check. ] (]) 14:10, 9 March 2021 (UTC) |
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change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." |
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to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) ] (]) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers == |
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== Additions to the lead == |
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This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! ] (]) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
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{{yo|LaggerLegend}} you recently added a few paragraphs of new content to the very beginning of this article. I have now reverted you twice, with you re-reverting in between. As you have not been using edit summaries, it is hard to know why you feel this content merits inclusion, or why it can be included despite a lack of sourcing. In the hopes of avoiding a full ], I am hoping you will join this discussion to justify your edits and possibly build consensus for including your work. ] (]) 05:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC) |
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This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million."
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) YapperYaps (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met.svg)
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)