| Revision as of 04:42, 12 October 2022 editDmitriy Tehlin (talk | contribs)28 edits →Polish! Czech! Slovac! crimes: new sectionTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:55, 23 November 2024 edit undoRichard Nevell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,156 edits →Sources on these subjects: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
| (31 intermediate revisions by 18 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes|archive_age=3|archive_units=months|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|1= |
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1= |
|
{{WikiProject Germany|class=C|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|B1=Yes |
|
{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|B1=Yes |
|
<!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and |
|
<!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and |
| Line 9: |
Line 9: |
|
<!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. -->|B4=Yes |
|
<!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. -->|B4=Yes |
|
<!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, |
|
<!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, |
|
such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. -->|B5=No|German=yes|WW2=yes|British-task-force=yes|French-task-force=yes|US-task-force=yes|Cold-War-task-force=yes|Russian=yes}} |
|
such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. -->|B5=No|German=yes|WWII=yes|British-task-force=yes|French-task-force=yes|US-task-force=yes|Cold-War-task-force=yes|Russian=yes}} |
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union |class=C |importance=mid |hist=yes|mil=yes |rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=mid |hist=yes|mil=yes |rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States|class=C|importance=mid|UShistory=yes|UShistory-importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject United States|importance=mid|UShistory=yes|UShistory-importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Feminism|class=C|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Feminism|importance=mid}} |
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Sociology|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Sociology|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Gender studies|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Gender Studies|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Law|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Law|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Crime|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Medicine|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Medicine|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Women's Health|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Women's Health|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Former countries|class=C}} |
|
{{WikiProject Former countries}} |
|
{{WikiProject Cold War|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject Cold War|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject United Kingdom|class=C|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject United Kingdom|importance=Low}} |
|
{{WikiProject France|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
{{WikiProject France|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject European history|importance=mid}} |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
| Line 39: |
Line 40: |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Beevor == |
|
==Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment== |
|
|
] This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-05-13">13 May 2019</span> and <span class="mw-formatted-date" title="2019-07-01">1 July 2019</span>. Further details are available ]. Student editor(s): ]. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II: |
|
{{small|Above undated message substituted from ] by ] (]) 07:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)}} |
|
|
|
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&. |
|
== Methodology == |
|
|
|
Ericsson&Simonsen say: |
|
For obvious reasons, this topic is infinitely fraught and infinitely complicated {These two articles are not irrelevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria - https://en.wikipedia.org/Satanic_ritual_abuse}, and perhaps discussing its methodology is more important than discussing what are taken to be facts? Incidentally, something I only know from the hearsay of a German woman born in 1942 is that the Americans in her sector didn't spare German Jews. Also, I feel uneasy about the article being so disconnected from the context of rape of Russian women by Germans during the German invasion of Russia. ] (]) 13:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
:"''...Beevor presented ostensibly new research on mass rapes. His figures, however, had been published in 1992 by the German team of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr''". |
|
|
I am going to replace Beevor (and mass-media that cite him) with the original secondary source. ] (]) 02:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The US rape section does not accurately describe the larger estimate. == |
|
== Unreliable source == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable. |
|
I’ve found that author Walter S. Zapotoczny, Jr. has very poor book reviews on Amazon, some of his books being rated as low as 1/5 or 2/5. The reviews generally criticise his works for being poorly written, not providing a comprehensive review of the topic, and filling many pages with appendixes and trivial information. I’ve haven’t looked into the books my self; I thought I’d post this here as a warning, and maybe someone can do a source check. ] (]) 14:10, 9 March 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape. |
|
== Additions to the lead == |
|
|
|
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes" |
|
|
|
|
|
|
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth." |
|
{{yo|LaggerLegend}} you recently added a few paragraphs of new content to the very beginning of this article. I have now reverted you twice, with you re-reverting in between. As you have not been using edit summaries, it is hard to know why you feel this content merits inclusion, or why it can be included despite a lack of sourcing. In the hopes of avoiding a full ], I am hoping you will join this discussion to justify your edits and possibly build consensus for including your work. ] (]) 05:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. ] (]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed == |
|
{{yo|Firefangledfeathers}} (]) I would love to share with you some information. Stalin has signed special order and communicated by phone to generals on 19th January 1945. Zhukov, Konev, and Rokossovsky have ordered their armies to follow these rules. Some sources: |
|
|
http://www.great-country.ru/rubrika_myths/vov/00027.html |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone". |
|
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-41521130.html |
|
|
|
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology). |
|
"Am 29. Januar ließ Marschall Schukow in allen Bataillonen seiner 1. Belorussischen Heeresgruppe einen Ukas verlesen, der es den Rotarmisten untersagte, "die deutsche Bevölkerung zu drangsalieren, die Wohnungen zu plündern und die Häuser niederzubrennen". Zugleich sollte die Verlesung eines schon früher erlassenen Stalin-Befehls den Warnungen vor Ausschreitungen Nachdruck geben: |
|
|
|
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
|
Offiziere und Rotarmisten aller Truppen! Wir gehen jetzt ins feindliche Land, Von jedem wird Selbstbeherrschung verlangt, jeder hat tapfer zu sein, wie es einem Kämpfer der Roten Armee gebührt, Die auf von uns besetzt-am Gebiet zurückgebliebene Bevölkerung, unabhängig davon, ob es Deutsche, Tschechen oder Polen sind, soll nicht belästigt und nicht beleidigt werden, denn die Schuldigen werden nach Kriegsgesetzen bestraft. Im besetzten Feindgebiet darf kein intimer Verkehr mit Frauen stattfinden Für Mißhandlungen und Vergewaltigungen werden die Schuldigen erschossen." |
|
|
|
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Sources on these subjects == |
|
Heeresgruppe Mitte Abt. Ic/AO 'Sowjetische Befehle über Verhalten der RA auf deutschem Boden' 3 Feb. 1945 (т.е. "Советские приказы о поведении Красной армии на немецкой земле") |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not to demean the topic, but I'm skeptical of the source for 1.9 million people being assaulted in Silesia, I feel there has to be more sources since this is an enormous number. ] (]) 17:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
По немецким территориям есть две Директивы Ставки ВГК: |
|
|
от 2 апреля 1945 г. № 11055: |
|
|
«Войскам, действующим на территории Австрии, дать указания о том, чтобы население Австрии не обижать, вести себя корректно и не смешивать австрийцев с немецкими оккупантами.» |
|
|
и от 20 апреля 1945 г. № 11072. |
|
|
«Ставка Верховного Главнокомандования приказывает: |
|
|
1. Потребовать от войск изменить отношение к немцам как к военнопленным, так и к гражданскому населению и обращаться с немцами лучше. |
|
|
Жестокое обращение с немцами вызывает у них боязнь и заставляет их упорно сопротивляться, не сдаваясь в плен. Гражданское население, опасаясь мести, организуется в банды. Такое положение нам не выгодно.» |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Exactly, it needs to be fixed. ] (]) 10:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
В хрущевском официозе История Великой Отечественной войны Советского Союза 1941-1945 гг. Т. 5. М., 1963 приказ Сталина не упомянут. |
|
|
|
:Where does the article give that figure for Silesia? ] (]) 11:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
В брежневском официозе История второй мировой войны 1939–1945 гг. Т. 10. М., 1979. с. 144-145 ссылается на: |
|
|
Наше мщение. // Красная Звезда. М., 1945. №33, 9 февраля, с. 1: |
|
|
http://libinfo.org/newsr/newsr130.djvu |
|
|
Нельзя представить себе дела таким образом, что если, скажем, фашистские двуногие звери позволяли себе публично насиловать наших женщин или занимались мародерством, то и мы в отместку им должны делать то же самое. Этого никогда не бывало и быть не может. Наш боец никогда не допустит ничего подобного, хотя руководствоваться здесь он будет отнюдь не жалостью, а только чувством собственного достоинства. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2024 == |
|
http://www.airo-xxi.ru/gb/doklady/doklad01.htm#_ednref28 |
|
|
Большевик. 1945. № 2. С.5. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Edit semi-protected|Rape during the occupation of Germany|answered=yes}} |
|
|
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." |
|
|
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) ] (]) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers == |
|
] (]) also, please read № 284. Приказ о порядке использования трофейного народнохозяйственного имущества № 04 19 января 1945 г. http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/nko_1943-1945/14.html |
|
|
:Thank you for providing some sources. Many are primary documents from during or soon after the war. We need to be cautious not to overuse such documents per WP:PRIMARY. If you find those sources to supplement current content sourced to reliable, secondary sources, I believe the article would be strengthened by their inclusion. Having skimmed through your links, I didn't easily find anything to support some of your content. For example, your edit began with: {{fontcolor|green|{{blockquote|The main thing is being displaced from the historical memory of the Second World War - that the USSR and the Soviet people saved Europe from the destruction of entire states and peoples, and democracy itself, and at the cost of colossal losses and sacrifices, unprecedented suffering and destruction on Soviet soil and an incredible exertion of forces. Moreover, in the western zones of German occupation, as the documents show , there was by no means the idyll the image of which is being instilled in the public consciousness today. Eisenhower 's Radio Message "We Come Winning!"meant both "the right of the victors" and "woe to the vanquished." "Paradise life" in the western sectors turned out to be such that even refugees frightened by the propaganda about "Russian atrocities" returned to the areas occupied by Soviet troops .}}}} What I have found so far in your sources does not support that content. Is the part about Eisenhower's message an interpretation of a reliable source, or your own interpretation? How about the labeling of the USSR's role in the war as the "main thing" being displaced in memory? In general, your content could benefit from inline citations, so that it's clear which source can verify each sentence or paragraph. You can learn more about how to do that at ]. ] (]) 20:34, 12 July 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! ] (]) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
== Ethnic Heritage of the Rapists? == |
|
|
|
|
|
What was the ethnic heritage of the Soviet Soldiers who committed (mass) rapes? There is some rumor that the Majority of them were Non-Europeans just like Tatars, Azerbaijanis, Kalmyks, Tuwinians, Buryatians and Yakutians.--] (]) 13:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Splitting out the section on the rape by the Soviet troops == |
|
|
|
|
|
The section on the rape by the Soviet troops is very large making it {{tq|"''out of proportion to the rest of the article''."}} Per ], such sections can be made into a new stand alone articles where more details can be inserted. Such a move is also encouraged by ]. Furthermore, the current size of the article is ~ 47 kB, prompting more attention to the size issue. --] <sup>]</sup> 13:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
:I don't think the Soviet section is big enough to warrant an entire article of its own. Also, as per ]: "Below 50 kB, an article may not need splitting based on size alone." I think that applies here (47kb). ] (]) 23:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
::For editors who are wondering why this is being brought up here, it's because it was brought up at ]. Regards, ] (]) 14:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== Polish! Czech! Slovac! crimes == |
|
|
|
|
|
Widely known about illegal violance agianst german and austrian cicvilian in East Prussia, Pomerania, Bohemia, Sylezia, Sydets and inner area in Poland and Czechoslovakia. ] (]) 04:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
|
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million."
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) YapperYaps (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met.svg)
.svg){kind=small}
,_Emblem_of_Russia_(1991%E2%80%931992).svg)
.svg){kind=small}
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)