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Latest revision as of 11:55, 23 November 2024 edit undoRichard Nevell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,156 edits →Sources on these subjects: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
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== Polish! Czech! Slovac! crimes == |
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Widely known about illegal violance agianst german and austrian cicvilian in East Prussia, Pomerania, Bohemia, Sylezia, Sydets and inner area in Poland and Czechoslovakia. ] (]) 04:42, 12 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== "Mongolian." Who wrote this bullshit?! == |
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The source (Grossman) clearly says that the description of "Mongol rapists" was a standard formula used by German woman as an argument for getting abortion. According to the Goebbels' racial hygiene laws, abortions were allowed only if there was a risk of "contaminating" "high quality Aryan blood" with the ''Untermensch'' blood. This law was still in effect in the occupied Germany, and German woman "''drew upon the Nazi racial hygiene discourse which banned "alien" (artfremd) offspring (indeed, when rapes by other occupation forces were certified, the perpetrator was frequently identified as Negro if American or North African if French). They availed themselves of the rich repertory of Nazi racial imagery of the barbarian from the East, especially the Mongol from the Far East, associated with the cruel frenzy of Genghis Khan. A letter from July 24, 1945: |
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:"I hereby certify that at the end of April this year during the Russian march into Berlin I was raped in a loathsome way by two Red Army soldiers of Mongol/Asiatic type." |
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''(...) In a matter-of-fact but also desperate manner, women mobilized existing discourses, entangled them, and deployed them to tell their own stories for their own purposes. ''" |
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I am going to remove mentioning of "Mongols" as the words that were taken out of context. Actually, by quoting these words out of context, Misplaced Pages reproduces Nazi racist myths. |
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If someone wants to add this info, let's discuss it first on the talk page. ] (]) 05:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC) |
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I am shocked. Whoever wrote this racist bullshit, I am going to report them immediately if this text (The first Soviet troops to fight in Berlin consisted mostly of Mongolians.<ref>From the Horrors of World War II to a Great Love Story By Edith V. Landis https://books.google.com/books?id=NGRfBPjvHfYC&pg=PT40</ref>) will be restored.--] (]) 05:19, 2 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:Apparently, these edits were made by a . I remove it completely. Some of the sources used by that sock may be useful, so I moved the quoted text here for future usage in a proper context. |
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:::] in her article in "October"<ref>{{Cite journal|url=http://www.jstor.org/pss/778926|jstor=778926|title=A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers|last1=Grossmann|first1=Atina|journal=October|year=1995|volume=72|pages=43–63|doi=10.2307/778926}}</ref> describes how until early 1945, the ] were illegal except for medical and eugenic reasons and so doctors opened up and started performing abortions to rape victims for which only an affidavit was requested from a woman. It was also typical that women specified their reasons for abortions as being mostly socio-economic (inability to raise another child), rather than moral or ethical. Many women stated they were raped but their accounts described the rapist as looking Asian or Mongolian. German women uniformly described the rapists as of "of Mongolian or Asiatic type".<ref>Protecting Motherhood |
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:Women and the Family in the Politics of Postwar West Germany |
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:Robert G. Moeller UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft3c6004gk;chunk.id=0;doc.view=print</ref><ref name=":3">Hordes of Rapists: The Instrumentalization of Sexual Violence in German Cold War Anti-Communist Discourses* by Júlia Garraio https://journals.openedition.org/rccsar/476</ref><ref></ref> |
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:::Evidence of Central Asian troops committing rape in Berlin was recorded. In April 1945, Magda Wieland took shelter in the cellar of her apartment house. She described that the first Soviet soldier to find her was a young 16 year-old Central Asian male, who raped her.<ref>Berliners recall Red Army atrocities, by Nora Fitz Gerald https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2002-09-24-0209240344-story.html</ref> It was reported that a Soviet commander was greatly embarrassed by wholesale rape of German women by ethnic Kazakh soldiers who were by far the worse offenders and were described as being Mongol Hordes.<ref>War and the 20th Century. A Study of War and Modern Consciousness. By Christopher Coker · 1994 </ref><ref>War and the 20th Century A Study of War and Modern Consciousness By Christopher Coker · 1994 </ref> Another recorded case involves German director Schmidt, who burst into Villa Franka, and yelled at Russian commander Isayev "Your soldiers are raping German women!". The raped German victim pointed at a Kazakh soldier being the perpetrator, and was arrested at the spot. The Kazakh soldier in return claimed he wanted revenge against the Germans who killed his two brothers in battle.<ref></ref> |
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:::A woman who lived in Berlin recalled: |
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:<blockquote>The front-line Russian troops who did the fighting – as a woman, you didn't have to be afraid of them. They shot every man they saw, even old men and young boys, but they left the women alone. It was the ones who came afterwards, the second echelon, who were the worst. They did all the raping and plundering. They stripped homes of every single possession, right down to the toilets.<ref>{{Cite book|last=Fremont-Barnes|first=Gregory|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=dMC_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA174|title=A History of Modern Urban Operations|publisher=Springer International Publishing|date=November 21, 2019|isbn=9783030270889|location=|pages=174}}</ref></blockquote> ] (]) 15:05, 2 May 2023 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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== Memoirs quotes == |
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I noticed many quotes from memoirs describe behaviour of Soviet military is details. I am not sure that is encyclopedic. However, if we believe that is ok, I found several books and articles that were published only recently, but that contain similar storied about American GIs and other Allied troops. I am going to add them per NPOV. ] (]) 05:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:If those books and articles "published only recently" are as reliable as sources used in the article, then yes, you can add them. If they're far-right or far-left propaganda aimed to whitewash either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, then no. ] (]) 15:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::None of these sources seem to be a propaganda or whitewash of anything. However, #1 is a personal memoir; it is reliably published, but author does not seem to be notable, hence arguably undue on the page. Same applies to all other personal memoirs by ''non-notable'' authors/participants of the events. A research summarizing and citing eyewitnesses would be fine. By contrast, #10 (history of urban warfare), for example, is a scholarly book and a good source. ] (]) 04:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== 240,000 dead? == |
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This is a claim that is being echoed elsewhere on the Internet, with this page as its apparent source. However, what is given as the source of this claim here is two entire books (one of them Befreiter und Befreite), without page numbers. Can we at least get page numbers, so that we can check the claim? |
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(In general, while rape is typically greatly underreported, corpses don't just disappear.) ] (]) 13:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== Beevor == |
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== Beevor == |
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Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. ] (]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. ] (]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed == |
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The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone". |
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Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology). |
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"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
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The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sources on these subjects == |
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Not to demean the topic, but I'm skeptical of the source for 1.9 million people being assaulted in Silesia, I feel there has to be more sources since this is an enormous number. ] (]) 17:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Exactly, it needs to be fixed. ] (]) 10:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Where does the article give that figure for Silesia? ] (]) 11:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Rape during the occupation of Germany|answered=yes}} |
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change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." |
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to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) ] (]) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers == |
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This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! ] (]) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million."
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) YapperYaps (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)