| Revision as of 05:48, 31 October 2023 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,293,983 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany/Archive 4) (bot← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:55, 23 November 2024 edit undoRichard Nevell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,156 edits →Sources on these subjects: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
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{{Talk header|search=yes|archive_age=3|archive_units=months|archive_bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}} |
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{{WikiProject Germany|class=C|importance=mid}} |
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== Memoirs quotes == |
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I noticed many quotes from memoirs describe behaviour of Soviet military is details. I am not sure that is encyclopedic. However, if we believe that is ok, I found several books and articles that were published only recently, but that contain similar storied about American GIs and other Allied troops. I am going to add them per NPOV. ] (]) 05:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:If those books and articles "published only recently" are as reliable as sources used in the article, then yes, you can add them. If they're far-right or far-left propaganda aimed to whitewash either Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, then no. ] (]) 15:16, 3 May 2023 (UTC) |
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::None of these sources seem to be a propaganda or whitewash of anything. However, #1 is a personal memoir; it is reliably published, but author does not seem to be notable, hence arguably undue on the page. Same applies to all other personal memoirs by ''non-notable'' authors/participants of the events. A research summarizing and citing eyewitnesses would be fine. By contrast, #10 (history of urban warfare), for example, is a scholarly book and a good source. ] (]) 04:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== 240,000 dead? == |
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This is a claim that is being echoed elsewhere on the Internet, with this page as its apparent source. However, what is given as the source of this claim here is two entire books (one of them Befreiter und Befreite), without page numbers. Can we at least get page numbers, so that we can check the claim? |
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(In general, while rape is typically greatly underreported, corpses don't just disappear.) ] (]) 13:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC) |
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== Beevor == |
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== Beevor == |
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"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
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"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
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The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Sources on these subjects == |
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Not to demean the topic, but I'm skeptical of the source for 1.9 million people being assaulted in Silesia, I feel there has to be more sources since this is an enormous number. ] (]) 17:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Exactly, it needs to be fixed. ] (]) 10:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Where does the article give that figure for Silesia? ] (]) 11:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2024 == |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Rape during the occupation of Germany|answered=yes}} |
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change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." |
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to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) ] (]) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers == |
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This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! ] (]) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million."
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) YapperYaps (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met.svg)
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Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)