| Revision as of 03:46, 27 August 2019 editMoxy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors129,581 edits →Article being flagged for copyright problems← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 11:55, 23 November 2024 edit undoRichard Nevell (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users10,157 edits →Sources on these subjects: ReplyTags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit Reply |
| (98 intermediate revisions by 37 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
|
{{talk header|search=yes}} |
|
{{Talk header|search=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject banner shell|class=C|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Germany|importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Military history|class=C|B1=Yes |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and |
|
|
does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. -->|B2=No |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including |
|
|
a lead section and one or more sections of content. -->|B3=No |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. -->|B4=Yes |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, |
|
|
such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. -->|B5=No|German=yes|WWII=yes|British-task-force=yes|French-task-force=yes|US-task-force=yes|Cold-War-task-force=yes|Russian=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union|importance=mid |hist=yes|mil=yes |rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United States|importance=mid|UShistory=yes|UShistory-importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Feminism|importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Sociology|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Gender Studies|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Sexology and sexuality|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Medicine|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Women's Health|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Former countries}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Cold War|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United Kingdom|importance=Low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject France|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject European history|importance=mid}} |
|
|
}} |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
|
|archiveheader = {{aan}} |
| Line 8: |
Line 36: |
|
|archive = Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany/Archive %(counter)d |
|
|archive = Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany/Archive %(counter)d |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{Auto archiving notice |bot=Lowercase sigmabot III |age=3 |units=months }} |
|
|
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
{{User:HBC Archive Indexerbot/OptIn |
|
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |
|
|target=/Archive index |mask=/Archive <#> |leading_zeros=0 |indexhere=yes |
|
}} |
|
}} |
|
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|1= |
|
|
{{WikiProject Germany|class=C|importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WPMILHIST|class=B |
|
|
<!-- B-Class 5-criteria checklist --> |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-1. It is suitably referenced, and all |
|
|
major points have appropriate inline citations. --> |
|
|
|B1=Yes |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-2. It reasonably covers the topic, and |
|
|
does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. --> |
|
|
|B2=No |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-3. It has a defined structure, including |
|
|
a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |
|
|
|B3=No |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |
|
|
|B4=Yes |
|
|
<!-- B-Class-5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, |
|
|
such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |
|
|
|B5=No |
|
|
|German=yes|WW2=yes|British-task-force=yes|French-task-force=yes|US-task-force=yes|Cold-War-task-force=yes|Russian=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Soviet Union |class=C |importance=mid |hist=yes|mil=yes |rus=yes|rus-importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject United States|class=C|importance=mid|UShistory=yes}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Feminism|class=C|importance=mid}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Men's Issues|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Sociology|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Psychology|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Discrimination|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Gender Studies|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Sexuality|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Law|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Crime|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Medicine|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Women's Health|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Former countries|class=C}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject Cold War|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WPUK|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
{{WikiProject France|class=c|importance=low}} |
|
|
}} |
|
|
{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Misplaced Pages:Wiki_Ed/Boise_State_University/HIST_319_Postwar_Europe_(Summer) | assignments = ] | start_date = 2019-05-13 | end_date = 2019-07-01 }} |
|
|
|
|
|
== Pascale Bos materia == |
|
|
|
|
|
Here are the relevant passages from Bos: |
|
|
|
|
|
{{Quote box |
|
|
|class = |
|
|
|bgcolor = Cornsilk |
|
|
|title = Excerpt from "Feminists Interpreting the Politics of Wartime Rape" |
|
|
|quote = ...It is within Sander’s second line of argument, which stresses the particularity of these rapes—an emphasis not noted much by the critics—that the limits of her feminist explanatory model of wartime rape become even more apparent. Sander argues for the uniqueness of the mass rapes of German women on two grounds. First, on the basis of scale, she argues that the extent of the German women’s rapes was unprecedented (1992, 11–12). Second, she suggests that they were part of an unwritten policy, and, in a sense, a form of genocidal rape: the German women were raped by the Russians not just as women but as Germans. The problem is that Sander can argue for this uniqueness only by obfuscating or underplaying the mass-scale rapes and other forms of coerced sexual contact between German soldiers and Russian women on the eastern front, something she does in the film and in the book (1992, 14–15). Whether all of this sexual contact was forced and conforms to the definition of rape or whether some of it may also have taken the form of instrumentalized sex or of semi-consensual relationships, the scale of it was massive, and at least a large portion of it was not consensual. |
|
|
|
|
|
The second argument Sander presents for uniqueness is that these mass rapes were especially harmful to the German victims because they perceived the perpetrators as bestial and as racially inferior. While this interpretation by the women is clearly rooted in Nazi racial ideology, Sander does not challenge it, and it comes to function instead as a central problematic figure. These rapes were worse, the women seem to say, because the men who committed them were racially inferior, they were Slavs, or Mongols. In turn, the rapes could lead to impregnation and would result in racially inferior and hence undesirable babies. Here Sander is most explicit in her interpretation of the rapes as genocidal. She does not question the racial rhetoric used by the German women interviewed in the film, and in a sense, she even legitimizes it by focusing in the second half of the film on the difficult fate of the supposedly racially mixed German offspring from the rapes. |
|
|
|
|
|
This slippage into a genocide model suddenly introduces the war’s racial context, which is only touched on but not analyzed further, and it makes Sander’s narrative of the rapes most troubling, in my view. For when Sander mentions the racial context of the rapes, she does so only partially (Soviet men raping German women) without acknowledging that the genocidal racial agenda of this war was of German rather than of Soviet origin. This racial ideology is indeed central to understanding the war endeavor from the German perspective (both the German men’s justification for raping Russian women and the German women’s interpretation of their rape experience were infused with Nazi race rhetoric). A full picture of this racial context as one of German origin is therefore significant. Providing it only partially means deliberately erasing one of the most pernicious and criminal aspects of the Nazi regime and its intentions: to rid Europe of those it deemed racially inferior and to increase the desired “Aryan” population. Highlighting only the victimization of the German women rather than the motives of the German men seems to deliberately neutralize the guilt of the Germans. |
|
|
|
|
|
It becomes easy to see how Sander came to stand accused of creating a revisionist version of German history and of reviving an old reactionary German narrative of victimization. Yet the irony is that Sander seems to have pursued an analysis that deemphasized the context of the war, of German crimes, and of German women’s complicity merely in order to get the suffering of the rapes acknowledged as a women’s issue, not to excuse Germany’s Nazi past or even the particular past of these women. |
|
|
|author = —Bos, Pascale R. |
|
|
|source ="Feminists Interpreting the Politics of Wartime Rape: Berlin, 1945; Yugoslavia, 1992-1993". '']''. Summer 2006, Vol. 31 Issue 4, pp. 995-1025. 31p |
|
|
}} |
|
|
] (]) 01:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Fixed== |
|
|
Russian language source is weak and should be used with care; but I left it and simply corrected the statement: I do not see anything about many thousands of Soviet soldiers convicted (it does provide the number of officers). ] (]) 23:22, 10 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Discourse== |
|
|
The text is difficult to understand, To begin with something, it tells: "The way the rapes have been discussed by Sander and Johr in their "BeFreier und Befreite" has been criticised by several scholars." But what exactly "been discussed by Sander and Johr". Page does not tell it. What exactly has been "criticised"? That does not make any sense. ] (]) 01:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
:I agree the article is in a terrible state. The first problem is it relies heavily on primary sources (memoirs, Alexievich (who is a brilliant writer, but by no mean a scholar), which is not good for WP, it doesn't place the event in a historical context, and it doesn't explain properly a feminist agenda of Sander and Johr. Actually, the idea that rape stories were taboo is not true: they were ''not'' taboo in West Germany, this issue was not considered deserving too much attention (mass killing as a result of American bombing, expulsion, poverty, were considered much more serious evil). |
|
|
:It is also should be explained that German woman were neither victims of Nazism nor neutral bystanders: most of them passively (and actively) supported Hitler and benefited a lot from the Third Reich's policy. The Americans considered woman populated cities a legitimate target for strategic bombing, and we should not be too surprised that German woman fell victims of the overall brutality of land warfare (whereas Americans focused on strategic bombing, Soviets took a major brunt of land warfare, but they were not bombing cities massively). I have sources (secondary scholarly sourcses) in support of my claims. |
|
|
:It is necessary to discus the plan, and after that to rewrite it. |
|
|
:--] (]) 03:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
::Yes, that's the thing: this page does not tell anything about "a feminist agenda of Sander and Johr", but it "disproves" it. I personally have no idea what is the "feminist agenda of Sander and Johr". I do not suggest to rewrite anything significantly on the page (and not particularly interested in the subject), but just did a minor fix. Citing a book by the Nobel prize winner (Aleksievich) on this page is fine. ] (]) 23:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
:::A feminist agenda (as Bos and others see it) is an attempt to represent this story as a rape of some generic woman (an innocent victim, by definition) by some generic man (a universal sinner). Totally ahistorical and hypocritical attempt. |
|
|
:::By the way, in her film, Sander carefully avoid mention of rapes of Soviet woman by German military, although she herself admits up to 1.5 million children were born in occupied territory of the USSR from German fathers. She refuses to admit that all of that were result of rapes, and she believes the sexual contacts were only partially coercive. She does not apply the same approach to German woman, although the whole statistics of rapes was based on three thousand children allegedly born from Russian fathers. About a million vs three thousand! |
|
|
:::With regard to Alexievich, she is not a scholar, she is a writer. Usage of primary sources should be limited in WP. It is our policy.--] (]) 23:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Whatever "the feminist agenda" is, it must be described on the page with refs prior to criticizing it. That is assuming such "agenda" belongs to this page. And, no, the books by Aleksievich are secondary sources (yes, they are based on eyewitness accounts, just as many other secondary RS). For example, the well known book by ] is also a secondary source. ] (]) 01:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
::::I make an understandable version of this section. If want to write it better, please do. ] (]) 03:56, 12 May 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Removed picture accredited to organization closed down in 1939== |
|
|
I removed the picture of the inset box, which was related to suspected rape victims. The picture was ascribed to Sicherpolitzei as photographers. But that organization was reorganized into another Nazi organization in 1939, the year of the start of the war. Thus, this is inappropriate in terms of time sequence, as the present article is regarding actions in the 1945 and subsequent occupation of Germany. This apparent contradiction needs to be resolved before the picture is restored to the article.] (]) 00:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
== "after being thrown out of a first-floor window." == |
|
|
|
|
|
The phrase "after being thrown out of a first-floor window" is confusing. Is it a British English "first floor" ie "second floor" in American English or the "first floor in American English ie the "ground floor" in British English? -- ] (]) 23:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
==Revert== |
|
|
I reverted most part of (a single edit of a red-linked account, possibly a sock of user YMB29). No, this is not properly sourced. Two paragraphs were "referenced" to . The last one was sourced to a book, but without pages, and I could not find cited text. ] (]) 03:02, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:{{ping|My very best wishes}} I can look for the Information with the way back machine and what page number that is on] (]) 03:07, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:: by any reasonable account. Do you agree? Book - we must check what it actually tells, I could not find this claim in the book at all. ] (]) 03:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} what I mean is I will look for was stated and find the source for it yes I agree 404 error is not a source] (]) 03:22, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Yes, I can see that you found correct links, but none of them qualify as RS, but rather as propaganda-style opinion pieces published in newspapers that are much worse than Daily Mail, and most of them by people no one knows about (like Дарья Горчакова, Сергей Турченко, etc.). In particular, these sources do not qualify as RS : . Do you know Russian (all of them are Russian language source), can you evaluate their reliability, and do you insist they qualify as RS? ] (]) 17:41, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::::Also, you titled text referenced to such sources as "studies". Those are not studies. You need strong academic sources to call something "studies". ] (]) 17:53, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} Hello I hope you are having a good night or day wherever you are. I did use a proper translation tool and they are quoting Russian scholars on the Subject and 5 other Sources are using news articles and one of them is using the one that used.] (]) 18:16, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::Are you saying that Дарья Горчакова, Сергей Турченко who signed these opinion pieces are Russian scholars?? Whatever was sourced to BBC is fine - I agree. ] (]) 18:19, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::::::The people who Gave their opinions what if we change it to scholarly opinions that way it's in the sources Voice not Misplaced Pages's. Could we compromise to that so we can have all the sources from different opinions since 5 other Sources are using news articles and one of them is using the one that used.] (]) 18:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::::Yes, these comments are just personal opinions on the internet by a couple of guys no one knows about. ] (]) 19:24, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} what if we change it to opinions on the subject Since some are news articles on the subject and we only quote two other Russian scholars,] (]) 18:33, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle#Discuss, |
|
|
|
|
|
*Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions,so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.] (]) 18:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC)) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*According to Russia historian A. Dyukov:" The Germans did not experience a fraction of the horror that their soldiers staged in the East. Despite some excesses, which were firmly suppressed by the Command, the Red Army as a whole behaved toward the people of the Reich with humanity". The Russian soldiers are credited with feeding the German population, rescuing children, and helping to restore normal life in the country. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*Colonel Ivan Busik, Director of Russia's Institute of Military History, cited Soviet Army General Ivan Tretiak, who said there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. |
|
|
|
|
|
Tell me what you think how does the edit look to you? ] (]) 18:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::We are talking about 3 different sources/links (see above), not 5. If there are two more, please tell what they are. Those 3 clearly do not qualify as RS for this page. An opinion by Dykov (if it were reliably sourced, but it is not) might be placed to a page about him, not here, since he is a fringe author. "you are making enemies" is a confrontational comment on your part, sorry. ] (]) 19:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:Jack, you need to take a step back and listen to the editor My very best wishes, she knows RS sources, when it comes to Soviet/Russian material. BBC is okay. If it was added in the past by YMB29 and you have reintroduced it, then it certainly should be reverted. I leave it to the two of you at this point to work out. ] (]) 19:09, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} what I trying to say with The BRD page is that I am ready to listen to what you have to say about this and work this out. and Most people would not who know Oleg Rzheshevsky is either. that why I was thinking what if we just quote Makhmut Akhmetovich Gareyev Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR.? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
(According to Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR Ivan Tretiak, said there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent. The work of Beevor and others alleging mass rape is characterized by Tretiak as "filthy cynicism, because the vast majority of those who have been slandered cannot reply to these liars.)] (]) 19:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::{{ping|My very best wishes}} It is showing the reader the opinion of someone of was a higher up in the USSR about the mass rapes what do you think about this? maybe in the Memoirs part of page?] (]) 19:53, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::If you want to quote an opinion by an expert, his opinion should be reliably sourced to secondary RS. It was not. Another question if an opinion by this person qualify as "fringe" or not, and if it really provides an important information about the subject. ] (]) 20:02, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::Just to clarify, the war rapes in Berlin and other parts of Germany were well documented and essentially a matter of fact. Any source that flatly deny it (for example, "not a single case of violence") should be viewed as "fringe". The exact numbers and details may be disputable ] (]) 20:13, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} Ok I was thinking Since they were memories I can put them in the memory section like this, |
|
|
|
|
|
*According to Mahmoud Gareev, Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR: |
|
|
|
|
|
he had not heard about sexual violence. He said that after what the Nazis did to Russia, excesses were likely to take place, but that such cases were strongly suppressed and punished, and were not widespread. He notes that the Soviet military leadership on 19 January 1945 signed an executive order calling on the avoidance of a rough relationship with the local .Gareyev said that Beevor copied Goebbel's propaganda about the "aggressive sexuality of our soldier |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*According to General Ivan Tretiak: |
|
|
|
|
|
there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent. The work of Beevor and others alleging mass rape is characterized by Tretiak as "filthy cynicism, because the vast majority of those who have been slandered cannot reply to these liars. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{ping|My very best wishes}} The rapes did happen I do not denial them that I why am asking. If you are ok if I pit the memories in to that part of the page, Since it shows the reader what Higher ups who were there thought about what happened with the Rapes] (]) 20:29, 25 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:Saying that the subject of Soviet rapes during occupation of Germany is "Goebbel's propaganda" (view by ]) is a ] view. But in any event you would need a secondary source better than . ] (]) 00:33, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::Then what about just quoting the post-war memory and not the secondary opinion they give? that'source is also used on this page besides for those two people.] (]) 00:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*According to Mahmoud Gareev, Former Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR: |
|
|
|
|
|
he had not heard about sexual violence. He said that after what the Nazis did to Russia, excesses were likely to take place, but that such cases were strongly suppressed and punished, and were not widespread. He notes that the Soviet military leadership on 19 January 1945 signed an executive order calling on the avoidance of a rough relationship with the locals |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*According to General Ivan Tretiak: |
|
|
|
|
|
there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years. However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} can we agree on quoting just the memories they give and not the opinion? Since Anthony B is not a post war memory ? in memory's part of page] (]) 00:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
:::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I see that you did a compromise are you OK with the one I did?] (]) 00:57, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::No, because you create "false balance" -see ]. The view by Gareev might be included (because you insist) only very briefly - as I did. If you want to include more memoirs, I can only support it. But those should be actual memoirs, , not the official views by Soviet generals or something censored by ].] (]) 01:01, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} I removed that one and left the actual memory of a general who was interviewed about it is that one ok?] (]) 01:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::::::No, you did something opposite. You removed a brief summary of his fringe views/opinion, but instead provided long quotation - see WP:GEVAL. That's why we should use ''scholarly sources on the subject'', and this is not Gareev. One could use by ] who is indeed a Russian scholar on the history of WWII. ] (]) 01:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
::::::: {{ping|My very best wishes}} I did remove Gareev and left the post war memory of Ivan Tretiak if you are not ok with that I will remove it.] (]) 01:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::::::I think one should either remove the views by Tretiak and Gareev or describe them very briefly. I can fix it later. ] (]) 01:27, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:::::::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I did Shorten it, what were you thinking of doing?] (]) 01:55, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*''there was not a single case of violence committed by men in his regiment. Tretiak said that although he wanted revenge, Stalin's orders on treating the population humanely were implemented, and discipline in the army strengthened. Tretiak said that in such a huge military group as that in Germany, there was bound to be cases of sexual misconduct, as men had not seen women in years'' |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
*I did not add this in to make it shorter |
|
|
(However, he explains that sexual relations were not always violent, but often involved mutual consent)] (]) 01:54, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:Look, you just placed unreliably sourced and completely false claims by Tretiak and Gareev to the page. They either do not belong at all to the page as "fringe" or should be mentioned exactly as I did , i.e. very briefly per ]. If you want to use "Russian sources", that's fine. Use by ]. Or you can use these English language books: , ] (]) 03:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I did say what was in the source it did say that in the source. How would you write it? for the memory's section to keep it Very brief? I did look over the solonin source I would like to see what you would put for the memory's part of page ] (]) 04:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Beevor == |
|
:::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} I found a better source it is from Elinor florence,] (]) 05:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II: |
|
(Elinor Florence grew up on a Saskatchewan grain farm, a former World War Two training airfield near North Battleford. |
|
|
|
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&. |
|
|
Ericsson&Simonsen say: |
|
|
:"''...Beevor presented ostensibly new research on mass rapes. His figures, however, had been published in 1992 by the German team of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr''". |
|
|
I am going to replace Beevor (and mass-media that cite him) with the original secondary source. ] (]) 02:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== The US rape section does not accurately describe the larger estimate. == |
|
*After earning her English degree at the University of Saskatchewan, she studied journalism at Carleton University. She launched her career at her hometown newspaper The Battlefords Advertiser-Post, followed by The Western Producer in Saskatoon, The Red Deer Advocate in Alberta, The Winnipeg Sun in Manitoba, and The Province in Vancouver, British Columbia. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable. |
|
*Weary of city life, Elinor and her husband moved their young family to the mountain resort town of Invermere, British Columbia. For the next eight years, she was a regular writer for Reader’s Digest.) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape. |
|
and she Interviews people who lived Through world war 2 is this source ok with you?] (]) 05:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes" |
|
|
|
|
|
|
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth." |
|
|
|
|
|
::{{ping|My very best wishes}} and that probably is a sock puppet they posted the Same stuff I will Report Since you said it may be a banned user] (]) 05:11, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. ] (]) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Favorable comparison and apologetic language + bias is out of place and should be removed == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone". |
|
::My Very Best Wishes, your edits come across as problematic because all you've done is delete material from another point of view. There are allegations of massive, extraordinary sexual violence by Russian soldiers during WW2 but it's an indisputable fact that many people dispute the allegations. |
|
|
|
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology). |
|
::Your insistence that svpressa.ru (Svobodnaya Pressa) is somehow flawed and cannot be used in the article is not something that is held by researchers and experts concentrating on Russia. Svobodnaya Pressa is cited in "Russia’s New Ground Forces: Capabilities, Limitations and Implications for International Security" Bronk cited from Svobodnaya Pressa in particular. The contents of the material on svpressa as cited in this article also appears on the web portal of the |
|
|
|
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only. |
|
|
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. ] (]) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Sources on these subjects == |
|
::'''Look, you just placed unreliably sourced and completely false claims by Tretiak and Gareev to the page.''' |
|
|
::They were there and accurately reported what they witnessed, like it or not. |
|
|
::'''That's why we should use scholarly sources on the subject, and this is not Gareev.''' |
|
|
Svetlana Alexeevich is not a scholarly source. You insist on leaving out the observations of Tretiak and Gareev because they dispute the narratives that you endorse, but you're perfectly perfectly cool with leaving intact the non-scholarly content of authors like Alexeevich. That's inconsistent and partisan.] (]) 05:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not to demean the topic, but I'm skeptical of the source for 1.9 million people being assaulted in Silesia, I feel there has to be more sources since this is an enormous number. ] (]) 17:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
:A scholar citing an extremely unreliable source X (X could be something like ] or whatever) does not prove X is an RS. This is easy to fix. I will do it later. ] (]) 14:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
:Exactly, it needs to be fixed. ] (]) 10:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:Where does the article give that figure for Silesia? ] (]) 11:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2024 == |
|
::::{{ping|My very best wishes}} The source I put was from a reliable source for the Memories part of page. were you acknowledging the other person?] (]) 16:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
{{Edit semi-protected|Rape during the occupation of Germany|answered=yes}} |
|
*Elinor Florence is an author and journalist. Before publishing her bestselling novel, Bird’s Eye View, she edited several daily newspapers and wrote for many publications, including Reader’s Digest Canada. Elinor lives in Invermere, British Columbia.https://www.dundurn.com/authors/Elinor-Florence] (]) 16:51, 26 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
|
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." |
|
|
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) ] (]) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{Not done}}: please provide ] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> ⸺(])] 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
== Critics about data concerning amount of rapes by Soviet soldiers == |
|
== Article being flagged for copyright problems == |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! ] (]) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC) |
|
Not sure if it's because of quote spam or just out right copy pasting...but it needs to be addressed before someone puts it up for deletion. Pls refer to for the different copyright concerns.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:{{u|Moxy}}, that link looks like it copied from the Misplaced Pages article (specifically ]), rather than the other way around. – ]] 03:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
::That is possible. ..but there are 7 links to different sites....need to click every example. If you compare it to a copy from last year we don't get such a warning.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:33, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::{{u|Moxy}}, just checked all of them - they're all either quotes or copies from our article. – ]] 03:40, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
|
:::::So it's quote spamming causing the problem.....should fix the lazy additions since last year as per ]. I will take a look.... first we should fix the sourcing problem.... Old topic like this has many academic publications to use.... simply no need for dead websites.--<span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">]</span> <span style="color:red">🍁</span> 03:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC) |
|
This article extensively uses Beevor. However, according to Ericsson, Kjersti, and Eva Simonsen, (Children of World War II:
The Hidden Enemy Legacy. New York: Berg. 2005 ISBN: 9781845202064, page 233) Beevor just takes the figures published by Sander&.
Ericsson&Simonsen say:
Currently the page suggests that the estimate of 190,000 rapes by US troops is based on a known statistic that 5% of the births in the post-war period were the result of rapes by American troops. It also unnecessarily says that the figure is based on "extensive research" (all estimates are based on research of varying degrees of intensity), actively painting the other estimates as unreliable.
However, the source states that "Gebhardt said she arrived at that number of sexual assaults by estimating that of the so-called ‘war-children’ born to unmarried German women by the 1950s, five percent were products of rape.
She also estimates that for each birth, there were 100 rapes"
As such "5% of the births in the post war era" should be changed, and replaced with "based on an estimate that 5% of post-war births resulted from rapes, and an assumption of 100 rapes per birth."
Given that the figure is nearly 20 times the size of previous estimates, it is especially important not to imply that this is a statistical fact that has been proven conclusively by research, which the page currently does. Crashbrennan (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
The statement in the beginning of the "British troops" section trivializes the British crimes by comparing it to Soviet crimes, "while not on the scale of the Red Army in the Soviet Zone".
Also the wording is apologetic, such as "some rapes were carried out by soldiers either suffering from post traumatic stress or who were drunk" (like other soldiers weren't suffering from stress, or being drunk provides an apology).
"However, he adds that probably referred to attacks by former slave labourers (displaced persons) seeking revenge" is also out of place in the section, because it should deal with the British crimes only.
The wording about "probably deserved it" is also not applied to Soviet or U.S. crimes. A clear bias in the section. 46.138.32.56 (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
change "The exact number of German women and girls raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million."
to "The exact number of German citizens raped by Soviet troops during the war and occupation is uncertain, but historians estimate their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, and possibly as many as two million." and similar parts in the article (as there's nothing to suggest that German men weren't raped also) YapperYaps (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
This article doesn't look really objective. There is a mention of a specific "Russian culture" which is surely patriarchal. Communist after they came to power gave a lot of rights to women. For example, USSR became the 1st country in the world that gave rights for abortion a right that in some countries of the civilized "Western World" (USA) is still restricted! Also, there is basically no critics for the studies mentioned in the article despite the fact that there are enough historians that indicated deficiency in the mentioned researches. Thus, most of the estimates that says millions of rapes are based on the book of Helke Sander and Barbara Johr. However, if you check how did they get these results, you'll see that they took data from single Berlin hospital (there were data if the woman was raped and if the father is Russian). They decided that if the father is Russian then the woman was raped (about 10% of cases based on data). Then, they said that in the entire Germany situation was exactly the same as in this single hospital! I believe that it's not good source based on authority (CRAAP) therefore even if you shall mention it you must show that there serious doubts about quality of this research! Next, this data about 100000 abortions after rape in Berlin. First of all it's not strictly 100000, but 20000 to 100000. Secondly, if the woman stated that she was raped the abortion was free. All she had to provide was written statement. Some historians (Antina Grossman) found several patterns in these statements that indicate that att least some of them were false. All the mentioned sources are already exist and used in the russian page of wikipedia https://ru.wikipedia.org/Насилие_в_отношении_мирного_населения_Германии_в_конце_Второй_мировой_войны#Оценки_числа_изнасилованных. Hope, you'll soon correct the english article so, that readers would be provided with more correct information! Egor Bilialov (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met.svg)
.svg){kind=small}
,_Emblem_of_Russia_(1991%E2%80%931992).svg)
.svg){kind=small}
.svg){kind=small}
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 05:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)