| Revision as of 19:54, 24 April 2022 editPilotSheng (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,506 edits →Use of Social Media and use of Partisan Sources.: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit |
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|date3=29 July 2023 |from3=Battle of Donbas (2022–present) |destination3=Battle of Donbas |result3=not moved/withdrawn |link3=Special:Permalink/1167968987#Requested move 29 July 2023 |
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{{Translated|uk|Битва за Донбас (2022)|small=no}} |
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{{merged-from|Sloviansk offensive|7 April 2024}} |
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{{translated|uk|Битва за Донбас (2022)}} |
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==Donbas Campaign== |
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Article should probably be renamed as the "Donbas Campaign" or "Donbas Offensive" - This is fighting for a broad geographic area where there will be many different engagements for separate towns or objectives, so it does not fit the definition of "Battle" well. ] (]) 14:47, 19 April 2022 (UTC)History_Man1812 |
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:i agree, it should be changed to Donbas Campaign. ] (]) 15:20, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::most news sources refer to it as the battle of the Donbass besides other offensives over broad geographic areas are called battles (battle of France, battle of Kursk etc) ] (]) 23:37, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Still not an accurate description, news sources are generally going for dramatic effect rather than actual, strict definitions when making those kinds of names. By all definitions it is an offensive, and should be named as such. ] (]) 15:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)History_Man1812 |
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::::I've opened up an RM a few sections down, you might want to bring this discussion there. --] (]) 21:48, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== It's not a Terrorist States == |
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Change "to the terrorist quasi-states of DPR and LPR" to "to self-proclaimed independent states of DPR and LPR, backed by Russia and de-facto South Ossetia." ] (]) 02:53, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 20 April 2022 == |
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{{requested move/dated|Donbas offensive}} |
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] → {{no redirect|Donbas offensive}} – Per History Man1812, this isn't a battle for a specific city or objective, but a broad offensive over a large geographic area. "Donbas offensive" is probably not the best title either, but it definitely should be moved ''somewhere'' other than where it is - feel free to contribute other suggestions below. ] (]) 15:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:The name "Battle of Donbas" could stay, considering other large-scale operations or engagements have also been called battles, such as the ], ], ] or ]. ] (]) 16:14, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:Shouldn't the name be at least changed to the "Battle of THE Donbas", since like the ] the location usually has an article in English, when standing alone?] (]) 16:56, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::Agree, I '''oppose''' changing to Donbas offensive, but I agree that at least the name should change to "Battle of the Donbas" ] (]) 15:03, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' - change name to Donbas offensive, many sources are saying so ] (]) 21:10, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' per nomination, and also having in mind the ] article. —] (]) 23:27, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' Seems to be the ]. ] (]) (]) 13:11, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' Current military operations in the Donbas fit all definitions of a Offensive or Campaign, rather than a Battle. There are also multiple battles ongoing in the region as part of the offensive, such as Severodonetsk, Avdiivka, or Izyum. ] (]) 15:15, 21 April 2022 (UTC)History_Man1812 |
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:'''Further Comment''' Beside the proposed name change, some possible alternatives can be found at ]. —] (]) 19:55, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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I agree that we should probably rename it, considering that there technically was a "Battle of Donbass" since the beginning of the war. We also appear to have two logical options for its name that have been suggested so far : |
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1. Battle of the Donbass |
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2. Donbass offensive |
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Out of which the 2nd name, Donbass offensive, would probably be the best choice, considering it's only a recent offensive in an area that has already seen heavy fighting. ] (]) 17:25, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:* '''oppose''' it is a battle. ] (]) 17:39, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:*:Do you have a ] stating that it is? All I can find online are articles reporting that Ukrainian officials are calling the offensive a "Battle of Donbass". ] (]) 23:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Move to ]''' to distinguish it from the wider ] which is also primarily a Donbas offensive. ] (]) 03:44, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::I agree with this. ] (]) 16:33, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::'''Support'''- Donbas offensive was also a military offensive during WW2 ] (]) 04:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::'''Suport'''. I´ts a broader offensive with lots of local battles and skirmishes. I´ts a new phase as viewed by both sides presidents. ] (]) 13:46, 23 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' - Obviously, that the correct name.] (]) 19:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' per above. ]]] 02:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:<s>'''Oppose both options'''</s> '''Support''' but I would prefer to just merge with ] instead. These are literally 1-to-1. ] (]) 02:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::'''Oppose''' The side which wants to rename it from the "Battle of Donbas" to something else, have provided no actual sources or evidence, besides relying on technicalities regarding military terms which are not always strictly followed in articles. The naming of an offensive or military campaign as a battle is nothing new, one can look at the ], ], or the ]. Furthermore, trying to decide the name by the way of limiting the size and scope of the military action is also flawed, considering large operations have been titled as battles, whether it be the ], ], ] or ]. Battles can also consist of battles themselves, such as the ], ], ], ] or the ]. Not to mention that sources cited in the article refer to the offensive as the "Battle of Donbas" or "Battle for Donbas". ] (]) 02:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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{{ping|SavageBWiki|Sundostund|Severestorm28|Mr.User200|Dunutubble|History Man1812}} problem is we have already an article about Donbas offensive, ]. So or we keep battle or we must merge. --] (]) 11:19, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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'''Merge/delete''': This is article is clearly part of the ] all be it a second phase of the offensive. There is no clear reason why this should be forked at this point. ] (]) 12:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' heavy shelling in Kharkiv was reported after the "second phase" started. This phase also extends beyond Donbas and Kharkiv, Russia has declared that it aims for occupying all of southern Ukraine and getting a land corridor to Transnistria . '''Merge with Eastern Ukraine offensive'''. ] ] ] 13:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' this is a second new major offensive separate and apart from the first Russian offensive into Eastern Ukraine at the start of the war.] (]) 15:09, 22 April 2022 (UTC) |
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== Request to have status and title changed == |
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:'''Oppose'''. It´s a new major offensive, not to be merged with the first. ] (]) 13:47, 23 April 2022 (UTC) |
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I request to the status changed from inconclusive to ongoing. There's no indication that the battle of Donbas is over. There's still fighting ongoing in settlements and cities in the Donbas such Advika, Marinka, near Bakhmut and surrounding areas. It doesn't make any sense that the battle is considered over while both sides are still launching offensive to capture territory in the region. I also request to change the title to "Battle of Donbas (2022-present)", as the battle is still ongoing. ] (]) 06:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' for same reason as above. ] (]) 16:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:I think the issue comes from the fact that we are still using terminology from when the war was still mobile. The choice to separate the war to "campaigns", like ] made sense because at the time it was mostly about Russians rapidly advancing without a solid frontline (and many probably thought it will be over soon). Now however it's the opposite, static fighting that far surpasses the scope of a single campaign taking place in the same area, so any "Battle of ____" article bloats out of proportion, because years on, fighting still takes place there, so we still file it under the same article. |
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== Use of Social Media and use of Partisan Sources. == |
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:The battle of Donbass was always a flawed term, it was justified because that's how the media talked about it, but the media doesn't need to keep a consistent terminology, so it simply stopped using it once it became clear fighting in the Donbass will continue past anything that could be considered a single "battle". So ] and ] are both leftover terminology that largely overlap. We wouldn't choose to segment the war this was with our current hindsight. |
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:The situation is a bit like if Wikipedians during the ] created an article for the new campaign, and then kept adding stuff even after the front became static given "fighting is still taking place in the area". If the Battle of Donbass will continue until fighting stops there, then it started back in 2014. No, the concept meant to refer to a new Russian offensive in the area, it's just that the terminology at the time didn't have the hindsight to know how long this war will drag on fighting in the same places. |
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:We can have articles that discuss the entire history of war in a specific area. Maybe '''Front''' or '''Theater''' should be used for that. |
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:We can have articles about the offensive pushes one side makes, but they should have clear beginnings and ends when it runs out of steam. So far, it seems we have alternating periods of Russian and Ukrainian offensives, with the original "Battle of Donbass" being the first Russian offensive that ended once the front stabilized in August 2022. |
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:Over at the Syrian civil war they made separate pages for every time one faction gained territory, and called it a separate offensive, like '''Aleppo offensive (July–August 2016)'''. The other side starts gaining ground -> New offensive -> New Article |
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:Imo, we should have Donbass offensive (April-September 2022), Luhansk counteroffensive (September-October 2022), 2022-23 Russian Winter Offensive (Bakhmut, Soledar, Toretsk, Vuhledar October 2022-May 2023), 2023 Ukrainian Counteroffensive (Robotyne, south of Velyka Novosilka, Klishchiivka, 2023 June-Sept), and 2023-24 Russian Winter Offensive (Avdiivka, west of Bakhmut) |
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:The same issue occurs in a smaller scale in individual city battles, like the drama around if the Battle of Bakhmut ended or not. It was originally coined, like the ], to refer to the fighting after the fall of Severodonetsk, '''east of '''the given city. But then fighting moved into the urban area, and the article became about the fighting to capture the city. That was over by May 2023, but fighting continues around the city with sustained intensity - so where should we write about those. Following the aforementioned example of the Syrian civil war, they would just make "Bakhmut counteroffensive (May - September 2023)", then move onto a different article now that it's Russian gains again. I think we have enough material for separate articles. |
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:Point is: keep it straight: are we talking about an offensive, or a theater of war? The article name should reflect that. ] (]) 22:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2023 == |
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Please avoid using, Social Media as a source from extraordinary claims. ], expecially regarding claims made about other state/belligrents, etc. I have also seen that the claim of 20,000 Syrian and Lybian mercenaries is being used repetively, if you want to include them go ahead, but dont use Misplaced Pages voice for those types of claims. Some Western Officials have claimed that, and some media have repeated that info, but until now, there is no a single evidence; photos, written reports, documents or videos of the presence of 20,000 ME fighters in Ukraine.] (]) 19:28, 21 April 2022 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Donbas (2022)|answered=yes}} |
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This could also be said for the random pro-russian telegram accounts making claims of hundreds of Ukrainian military fatalities. ] (]) 08:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC) |
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I request the status of the battle of Donbas to be changed from inconclusive to ongoing as fighting is still ongoing in the region and no information states otherwise. ] (]) 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::Of cource, Please ] could you explain why you kep restoring this . The source is a Social media account, and the claim is made by one of the actors in conflict regarding losses of the opposing side, this does not fit in the criteria of ] and ].] (]) 19:51, 24 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:] '''Note:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> since it was ] by {{u|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}}, I think it would be best if they could explain why the rationale behind it. ] (]) 15:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:::Citing the Facebook posts of the Eastern "Skhid" task force in my opinion is acceptable. It is from the '''official Ukrainian military account responsible for the Donbas region'''. This Facebook account has been cited by reputable news entities like this: https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/826309.html. If that link constitutes an acceptable source, and it is literally copying and pasting the information from the military Facebook account, '''then it should be acceptable to cite straight from the Facebook post.''' It is the same as citing the Ukrainian General Staff facebook account, it is an official statement made by Ukrainian military officials. Additionally, when citing Ukrainian and Russian Telegram/Facebook accounts, I include caveats like "claim" or "according to," because casualty counts are almost always unreliable and if the Ukrainian or Russian military "claims" to have killed X amount of enemy fighters, then it should be acceptable to include that in the article, as long as you use caveats like "Claimed to have killed X enemy fighters" etc. ] (]) 19:54, 24 April 2022 (UTC) |
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::There was a whole long discussion about this. See ]. The scope of the article was changed to cover specifically the summer 2022 offensive, not all fighting in the Donbas. ] (]) 15:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> per {{u|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}}'s explanation. ] (]) 15:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 21#Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 21:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Status == |
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== Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Donbas" == |
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Status should change from inconclusive to limited Russian victory. ] (]) 11:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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The initial letter of the title is only capitalised in running text if it would normally be capitalised. Per ]: {{tq|Misplaced Pages avoids unnecessary capitalization. In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, acronyms, and for the first letter of a sentence. Misplaced Pages relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages.}} Per ], the burden is to show that capitalisation is ''necessary'' in accordance with the criteria of ]. Looking at news sources , it appears to be capitalised about half the time or perhaps a little more. It appears to fall well short of the high threshold set by ]. ] (]) 08:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:It would be nice if we had sources indicating the "result" of the "battle of Donbas". Everyone was so quick to report that it had begun, but almost never mentioned it by that name again. If you are aware of sources that support your suggestion please provide them. ] (]) 14:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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{{U|SavageBWiki}}, the burden per ] is to show that capitalisation is ''necessary''. The term does not appear to meet the high threshold set by ]. ] (]) 00:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC) |
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I request to the status changed from inconclusive to ongoing. There's no indication that the battle of Donbas is over. There's still fighting ongoing in settlements and cities in the Donbas such Advika, Marinka, near Bakhmut and surrounding areas. It doesn't make any sense that the battle is considered over while both sides are still launching offensive to capture territory in the region. I also request to change the title to "Battle of Donbas (2022-present)", as the battle is still ongoing. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 06:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I request the status of the battle of Donbas to be changed from inconclusive to ongoing as fighting is still ongoing in the region and no information states otherwise. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
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Note: since it was changed by HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, I think it would be best if they could explain why the rationale behind it. M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Not done: per HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith's explanation. M.Bitton (talk) 15:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 21 § Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia until a consensus is reached. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)