| Revision as of 12:22, 2 October 2023 editSuper Dromaeosaurus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users57,434 edits →Proposed merge of Sloviansk offensive into Battle of Donbas (2022)← Previous edit |
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<!---{{merged-from|Sloviansk offensive}}---> |
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{{Old move|date=23 February 2023|destination=War in Donbas (2022–present)|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1142305755#Requested move 23 February 2023}} |
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{{Old move|date=27 March 2023|destination=Donbas campaign|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1149643182#Requested move 27 March 2023}} |
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{{Old move |date=29 July 2023 |from=Battle of Donbas (2022–present) |destination=Battle of Donbas |result=not moved/withdrawn |link=Special:Permalink/https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Battle_of_Donbas_(2022%E2%80%93present)&oldid=1167968987}} |
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{{old move|date=31 August 2023|from=Battle of Donbas (2022–present)|destination=Battle of Donbas (2022)|result=moved|link=Special:Permalink/1174250677#Requested move 31 August 2023}} |
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{{Translated|uk|Битва за Донбас (2022)|small=no}} |
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{{merged-from|Sloviansk offensive|7 April 2024}} |
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== Request to have status and title changed == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2023 == |
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I request to the status changed from inconclusive to ongoing. There's no indication that the battle of Donbas is over. There's still fighting ongoing in settlements and cities in the Donbas such Advika, Marinka, near Bakhmut and surrounding areas. It doesn't make any sense that the battle is considered over while both sides are still launching offensive to capture territory in the region. I also request to change the title to "Battle of Donbas (2022-present)", as the battle is still ongoing. ] (]) 06:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Donbas (2022–present)|answered=yes}} |
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The Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is wrong and is overlapping the Ukrainian Fall counteroffensives (September-November 2022). ] (]) 04:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:''' it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a ] and provide a ] if appropriate.<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 13:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is to be divided like the following. |
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::Section is two divide into two parts. |
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::First Russian offensive (April-August) |
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::Ukrainian counteroffensive |
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::(August - November) |
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::Second Russian offensive (November 2022-June 2023. ] (]) 15:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done for now:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> How to divide it? Where to add the new headers? ] (]) 07:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:I think the issue comes from the fact that we are still using terminology from when the war was still mobile. The choice to separate the war to "campaigns", like ] made sense because at the time it was mostly about Russians rapidly advancing without a solid frontline (and many probably thought it will be over soon). Now however it's the opposite, static fighting that far surpasses the scope of a single campaign taking place in the same area, so any "Battle of ____" article bloats out of proportion, because years on, fighting still takes place there, so we still file it under the same article. |
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== Requested move 31 August 2023 == |
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:The battle of Donbass was always a flawed term, it was justified because that's how the media talked about it, but the media doesn't need to keep a consistent terminology, so it simply stopped using it once it became clear fighting in the Donbass will continue past anything that could be considered a single "battle". So ] and ] are both leftover terminology that largely overlap. We wouldn't choose to segment the war this was with our current hindsight. |
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:The situation is a bit like if Wikipedians during the ] created an article for the new campaign, and then kept adding stuff even after the front became static given "fighting is still taking place in the area". If the Battle of Donbass will continue until fighting stops there, then it started back in 2014. No, the concept meant to refer to a new Russian offensive in the area, it's just that the terminology at the time didn't have the hindsight to know how long this war will drag on fighting in the same places. |
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:We can have articles that discuss the entire history of war in a specific area. Maybe '''Front''' or '''Theater''' should be used for that. |
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:We can have articles about the offensive pushes one side makes, but they should have clear beginnings and ends when it runs out of steam. So far, it seems we have alternating periods of Russian and Ukrainian offensives, with the original "Battle of Donbass" being the first Russian offensive that ended once the front stabilized in August 2022. |
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:Over at the Syrian civil war they made separate pages for every time one faction gained territory, and called it a separate offensive, like '''Aleppo offensive (July–August 2016)'''. The other side starts gaining ground -> New offensive -> New Article |
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:Imo, we should have Donbass offensive (April-September 2022), Luhansk counteroffensive (September-October 2022), 2022-23 Russian Winter Offensive (Bakhmut, Soledar, Toretsk, Vuhledar October 2022-May 2023), 2023 Ukrainian Counteroffensive (Robotyne, south of Velyka Novosilka, Klishchiivka, 2023 June-Sept), and 2023-24 Russian Winter Offensive (Avdiivka, west of Bakhmut) |
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:The same issue occurs in a smaller scale in individual city battles, like the drama around if the Battle of Bakhmut ended or not. It was originally coined, like the ], to refer to the fighting after the fall of Severodonetsk, '''east of '''the given city. But then fighting moved into the urban area, and the article became about the fighting to capture the city. That was over by May 2023, but fighting continues around the city with sustained intensity - so where should we write about those. Following the aforementioned example of the Syrian civil war, they would just make "Bakhmut counteroffensive (May - September 2023)", then move onto a different article now that it's Russian gains again. I think we have enough material for separate articles. |
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:Point is: keep it straight: are we talking about an offensive, or a theater of war? The article name should reflect that. ] (]) 22:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2023 == |
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<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a ] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.'' |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Donbas (2022)|answered=yes}} |
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The result of the move request was: '''moved.''' <small>(])</small> ] (]) 02:05, 8 September 2023 (UTC) |
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I request the status of the battle of Donbas to be changed from inconclusive to ongoing as fighting is still ongoing in the region and no information states otherwise. ] (]) 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Note:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> since it was ] by {{u|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}}, I think it would be best if they could explain why the rationale behind it. ] (]) 15:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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::There was a whole long discussion about this. See ]. The scope of the article was changed to cover specifically the summer 2022 offensive, not all fighting in the Donbas. ] (]) 15:25, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> per {{u|HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith}}'s explanation. ] (]) 15:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 21#Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 21:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Status == |
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] → {{no redirect|Battle of Donbas (2022)}} – This article started out in a pretty reasonable state, after officials on both sides of the war announced a “Battle of Donbas” in spring-summer 2022. However, since then, the article has quietly, unreasonably ballooned in scope to cover every single thing that happens in the Donbas in the war from then on, despite there being zero sources that still call ongoing activities the “battle of (the) Donbas”, or the “battle for (the) Donbas” in a more than figurative way. |
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Status should change from inconclusive to limited Russian victory. ] (]) 11:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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To the contrary, I will prove in this nomination that reliable sources actually consider the “battle” - or “offensive” or whatever you want to call it - to have ended in late summer 2022, at some point after Russia captured the twin cities ] and ] and before Ukraine started its twin counteroffensives in the autumn of that year. |
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:It would be nice if we had sources indicating the "result" of the "battle of Donbas". Everyone was so quick to report that it had begun, but almost never mentioned it by that name again. If you are aware of sources that support your suggestion please provide them. ] (]) 14:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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There are not many sources to draw on here - mostly because the terminology “battle of Donbas” completely fell off in usage almost immediately after the announcements - but the ones that are available are pretty clear about the scope. AXIOS wrote in late August that the ] “likely marks the start of a third phase of the war, following Russia’s initial three-pronged assault and the grinding battle in the Donbas.”<ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.axios.com/2022/08/29/ukraine-launches-kherson-counteroffensive|title=Ukraine launches counteroffensive to retake Russian-occupied Kherson|first=David|last=Lawler}}</ref> The “battle in the donbas” is clearly considered to have ended as a “phase” of the war with the beginning of the counteroffensives. This is, in fact, the same grouping of events Misplaced Pages already uses to separate sections of the war at ] and ], and this very wiki article calls it the “second phase” already. |
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Military experts and commentators also use the terminology to describe a specific phase and offensive of the war which has since ended, rather than as all activity in Donbas since summer 2022. Rob Lee and ], writing for the Foreign Policy Research Institute in an article titled “How the Battle for the Donbas Shaped Ukraine’s Successes”, state: “Ukraine’s successes in Kherson and Kharkiv were largely a result of the losses it inflicted on the Russian military in the Battle for the Donbas in the spring and early summer.”<ref name=FPRI>{{cite news|url=https://www.fpri.org/article/2022/12/how-the-battle-for-the-donbas-shaped-ukraines-success/|title= How the Battle for the Donbas Shaped Ukraine’s Success}}</ref> They describe the ending of the campaign, saying “Russia’s advances in the Donbas, from April to July, proved to be a pyrrhic victory, tactical successes at the expense of strategic vision. Russia expended valuable manpower and artillery ammunition, while Ukraine pursued a defense-in-depth strategy. By September, NATO arms deliveries had reduced Russia’s critical advantage in artillery and Moscow didn’t have sufficient forces or ammunition to hold the territory occupied, which set the stage for Ukraine’s successful offensives.”<ref name=FPRI/> The ] also puts the ending roughly in Summer 2022, stating: “Russia lost the initiative in summer 2022 after its offensive in Donbas culminated.”<ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-4|title=Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, December 4}}</ref> |
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These bounds are a bit rough and imprecise, I admit, but we are covering an ongoing war, and the specifics are going to be a little bit blurry. My tentative proposal is to place the end date immediately before the beginning of Ukraine’s 2022 counteroffensives, but this is something that editors can decide in further discussion threads. I think from the evidence I’ve showed, it is clear that the campaign is not ongoing and did indeed end in mid-2022, and so should be moved. I should also note: This proposal is formatted as an RM, but will also necessitate a significant downsizing and rewriting of the article, with all out-of-scope material either transferred to higher-scope articles like ] or deleted if it’s already covered in relevant places. There will also need to be a lot of links removed from pages that will now be out of the scope of the article. I think this is a manageable amount of refactoring. ] (]) 19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''': Only a few RS who use "Battle of Donbas" say the battle is over. The current title violates ] and causes ] violations not only in this article but in other articles. ] (]) 11:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment'''. My general understanding is that the Russian Donbas offensive has made little or no progress in months and Russian forces have been forced to go to on the defensive. But the capture of the Donbas oblasts remains a top Russian objective and continues to influence Russian actions (e.g., devoting significant resources to holding Bakhmut, symbol of the only Russian “success” of 2023). —''] ].'' 16:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::Combat is still taking place in the Donbas now, yes - but fighting was also taking place ''before'' officials announced the "battle for the Donbas" had started in April 2022. It makes a lot more sense to have "Battle of Donbas" refer to that specific summer offensive, which was followed by the ] and later the abortive Russian winter campaign, and now the eastern sector of the ]. My argument in the RM is that most sources agree with my interpretation, using "Battle of Donbas" in a limited sense to refer to that specific offensive later than all fighting in Donbas since April '22. Fighting before and after the summer 2022 offensive can, and is covered in ]. ] (]) 16:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:::The Russian 2022 winter campaign still aimed at taking the Donbas, including Bakhmut and Vuhledar. When I hear “battle of the Donbas” I think of this too. I believe it’s a synonym for ], whether we choose to differentiate the two or not. —''] ].'' 18:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment''' This is part of the ]; whether it is a distinct part is another question (per Michael). It was marked by the Russian redeployment of troops from the northern areas and a patriotic war cry that was taken by the press but this has petered out in usage with no distinct end. We should certainly not suggest that it does have a distinct end. Like most of our articles in this area, it is constructed as an agglomeration of NEWSORG (or similar) bulletins and therefore substantially fails to be an ''encyclopedic article''. If a concerted effort were made to bash this into shape, I suspect it would be very much reduced. Whether that would be sufficient to justify a stand-alone article or whether it should just be subsumed back into the ] is a very reasonable question. The same might be said for the other articles that are "phases" of the overall campaign. ] (]) 00:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' change of scope. This would finally differentiate this article with ]. I am thinking that we could make this article cover the second phase of the war, and ], ], ] and ] (these last two should be merged) could cover the initial Russian blitzes of the first phase. Then the two 2022 counteroffensives could cover the third phase, maybe this thing along with ] and ] the fourth, and the 2023 counteroffensive the fifth. Because current analysis on the war seems to divide it into five phases. We have a lot of overlapping articles right now. My only issue would be the title. "Battle of Donbas" is barely used and the use of 2022 in the title overlaps with the Russian offensives following Ukraine's counteroffensives. But it's better than keeping the article as is. ] (]) 10:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC) |
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{{Reflist-talk}} |
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<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from ] --> |
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== Post-move cleanup == |
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I've already merged most of the out-of-scope material to ], but there's still some stuff that needs to be done. The stats in "Casualties" include stuff after September, for instance, which I've marked. It would also be really good to have some sort of conclusion or "Aftermath" section to wrap the article up, rather than it just ending abruptly at the end of August like it does now. ] (]) 00:01, 13 September 2023 (UTC) |
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== Proposed merge of ] into ] == |
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(Proposed after discussion at ]) |
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There isn't much of significance in the ] article that can't be effectively covered in ]. It mostly consisted of Russia repeatedly bashing infantrymen against Ukrainian fortifications south of Izium over and over until the ] - which is covered just fine in other articles. Even though it's been over a year since the events, large amount of the material is also just not independently confirmed, leaving even less notable events in the Sloviansk offensive article. It makes most sense to cover the notable stuff in the Donbas battle article, since it was one of the prongs of that offensive. ] (]) 22:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' per nom and per discussion at the talk page of the article proposed to be merged. ] (]) 22:51, 20 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom and discussion at ] ] (]) 01:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' per nom and discussion at ] ] (]) 09:29, 21 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Support''' per nom and discussion at ]. ] (]) 03:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC) |
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:'''Oppose''' As ISW and others have discussed, the operation was pretty notable/decisive precisely because the Russians failed, both initially and later on. A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences. Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains. |
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:The main Battle of Donbas article has a far larger scope, and any weaknesses in the current article don’t reflect on the topic. In fact, the current revision doesn’t contain a lot of the substantive discussion found in sources, probably because it was only recently moved to its current title. |
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:I would also suggest that the skirmishing around ] and ] be covered, as well as the Russian mistakes in troop dispositions and force-to-space ratios that set the stage for the Ukrainian counterblow, which is fairly extensively discussed by sources. |
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:Unfortunately I completely missed out on that previous, closed, discussion which others have linked to. |
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:] (]) 10:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC) |
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::We could divide this campaign into many several subcampaigns. If Russia took Siversk it could have also been bad. Also if they took Avdiivka, or Vuhledar. We can't give articles to every subaxes of this campaign, and I am not convinced the fighting north of Sloviansk was particularly more notable than the others. Plus, {{tq|A successful drive and exploitation could have had very serious consequences.}} is speculation. {{tq|Instead, the Russians ended up having to take a more frontal approach, leading to limited and Pyrrhic gains.}} can apply for the whole campaign, or for the whole invasion itself. If this article got into a better shape and became longer, we could discuss a split in the future. But currently both the proposed merged article and the proposed target article do not cover the fighting north of Sloviansk in great detail. In my view having everything neatly packed into one article will make expansion easier, at least in this one case. ] (]) 12:22, 2 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Is it really over though? == |
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Battles of Donetsk suburbs were merged in, but they had lot of stuff happening AFTER Kharkiv counteroffensive. when you look at some winter offensive battles (like Bakhmut and Vuhledar), it says that they are part of the battle of donbass. |
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Main offensive probably ended, but they are still fighting for Dobass ] (]) 07:32, 1 October 2023 (UTC) |
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:This article is about the so-called "second phase" of the war, from the Russian retreat from the north of Ukraine to Ukraine's counteroffensives. Russian advance slowed down after taking Lysychansk and started focusing mainly on the Bakhmut direction. It only started gaining traction after Ukraine's two counteroffensives had ended, accordingly they are defined by some as the "third phase" and the battle for Bakhmut (among others) as the "fourth phase". It makes sense from an organizational and historiographic point of view. Also worth noting that fighting was also taking place in Donbas before the start date here anyway. Perhaps another title could make the article's scope more evident. After the fall of Lysychansk I don't think we could say Russia pulled any offensive aimed at taking the whole of Donbas. ] (]) 12:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC) |
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I request to the status changed from inconclusive to ongoing. There's no indication that the battle of Donbas is over. There's still fighting ongoing in settlements and cities in the Donbas such Advika, Marinka, near Bakhmut and surrounding areas. It doesn't make any sense that the battle is considered over while both sides are still launching offensive to capture territory in the region. I also request to change the title to "Battle of Donbas (2022-present)", as the battle is still ongoing. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 06:31, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I request the status of the battle of Donbas to be changed from inconclusive to ongoing as fighting is still ongoing in the region and no information states otherwise. LegendaryChristopher (talk) 16:24, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Referencing and citation: criterion not met
Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
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Note: since it was changed by HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, I think it would be best if they could explain why the rationale behind it. M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Not done: per HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith's explanation. M.Bitton (talk) 15:57, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
The redirect Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 May 21 § Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia until a consensus is reached. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2024 (UTC)