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I find it hard to believe that either German or French is more commonly taught in the United States than Spanish.
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== poor article contradicts itself in multiple ways ==
I have changed (in the section verb inflection) "6 composed tenses" to "4 composed tenses" and deleted "futurum preterite I & II"): There are only four composed tenses, at least in Standard German, and futurum preterite is the same as future II. What is "futurum preterite II"? --] 18:16, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)--


* intro: "or more precisely High German" and table with "Language family ... High German" vs. ISO 639-3 in the talble: "nds – Low German"
imho South Tyrol is not an enclave region, as it has borders to Austria. --] 01:54 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
*: Low German is not High German
* nativename in the table: "{{lang|de|Deutsch}}" vs. bar – Bavarian etc. in the table
*: in the various dialects like Bavarian the term for German is different, e.g. in ksh – Kölsch it's ''Dütsch'' (cp. )
* WP speaks of "]" (plural), yet this is only "]" (singular). German is broader than High German, so it should be ''German language'''s''''', or German here is short for ] which already has a more proper article.
date=June 2023


I am moving this here ''sic erat'' from a ] posted by ]. ] (]) 20:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
==Deleting things==
Hi 200.180.187.44 , could you please state, why you deleted this text? If there is a reason, it is ok. Please let me know, Thanks :-) ] 16:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


==German speakers== == Cluster ==
From the article:
Germany approx. 82 m
:The ] dialects Nevertheless, topologically these dialects are structurally and phonologically far more similar to Dutch, than to German and form both the smallest and most divergent dialect cluster within the contemporary German language area.{{sfn|Niebaum|2011|p=98}}
Austria approx. 7 m
:<references/>
Switzerland approx 5 m
:* {{cite book |last=Niebaum |first=Hermann |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eG0l63rBggsC |title=Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen |date=2011 |publisher=Niemeyer |isbn=978-3-11-091654-6 |edition=2nd |location=Tübingen |language=de |trans-title=Introduction to the dialectology of German |chapter=Wege und Schwerpunkte der deutschen Dialektologie |trans-chapter=Ways and focuses of German dialectology }}
Belgium, Denmark, Italy and Luxemburg 1 m
As for the source:
France approx. 1 m
* That's not properly cited, as it lacks the other author Jürgen Macha and as the year or edition is wrong (1st 1999, 2nd 2006, 3rd 2014 - 2011 could only be a reprint or a re-release as e-book or something)
Poland approx. 1 m
* Quoting from the 3rd ed. as here the text is (basically) the same and as this can still be viewed online:<br/>Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, ''Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen'', 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104 ()): "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“
Russia approx. 2 m
Thus:
* The source doesn't state that Low Franconian is the smallest and most divergent cluster. It's stating that ''Ripuarisch + Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch'' form a heterogeneous area. So both the dialect(s) and the ] (superlative vs. positive) aren't sourced.
* Article stated: "within the contemporary German language area". There's a difference between "in Germany" and "in the German language area". The German language area also comprehends Austria and Switzerland. As the source only considered Germany, the wording in the article wasn't correct.
-06:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


== Germanics ==
Together approx. 99 m


The German article on the Germanics https://de.wikipedia.org/Germanen says, that the concept can be defined historically outside the linguistic sphere. ] (]) 19:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
http://www.detlev-mahnert.de/deutsch_in_europa.html
states around 100 million native speakers and 140 million total (only in europe).


:The very concept of ''Germanics'' is disputed by science in Germany, this German article says sourcedly. Furthermore, ''Germanics'' hardly is used as a concept for the present by Germans nowadays. ] (]) 08:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
http://www.rom.diplo.de/de/kultur/deutsch_lernen/dt-sprachenverbreitung.html
::One problem here is that "Germanics" is simply not a term found in the English-language literature, so arguing that there's something wrong with it is entirely beside the point. --] (]) 08:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
" Die Zahl der in- und ausländischen Staatsbürger im In- und Ausland, die Deutsch als Muttersprache in Wort und Schrift beherrschen liegt bei ca. 91- 92 Millionen (Schätzung anhand der Einwohnerzahl deutschsprachiger Gebiete). Die Zahl derjenigen, die Deutsch als Fremdsprache beherrschen, wird zwischen 25 und 55 Millionen geschätzt. Deutsch ist die meistgesprochene Muttersprache in der Europäischen Union"
:The word "Germanics" doesn't appear in the article, so why are you discussing this here? ] (]) 09:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::12 pages link to ], a redirect to ].
::Maybe we should discuss this on another talk page. ] (]) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


== Luxembourg ==
Where do the other 20 m German-speaking people live ?
Do you want to include foreign-language speakers ?
] 15:35, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)


{{ping|KoreaJAP}} Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--] (]) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
Most sources i know say approximately 100 million native speakers.
Total is a little more difficult and could only be an educated guess.


:<s>I have corrected it. ] (]) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</s>
Maybe this table can show it:


== Recognized minority language in Hungary ==
Frage: "Apart from your mother tongue, which of these languages can you speak well enough to take part in a conversation?" -
Dabei waren die 11 EU- Sprachen sowie die Antwortmöglichkeiten "other" und "none" vorgegeben)


The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. ] (]) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
In % Deutsch Französ. Englisch Spanisch
Belgien 15,3 49,4 59,6 5,2
Dänemark 65,9 12,1 95,6 7,5
Deutschland 2,4* 17,7 70,3 2,3
- West 2,9* 19,9 74,2 2,7
- Ost 0,3* 8,8 53,7 0,7
Finnland 23,9 8,2 91,7 2,0
Frankreich 12,7 6,5* 63,3 24,7
Griechenland 5,3 10,6 67,2 1,1
Großbritannien 11,9 28,4 8,7* 4,1
Irland 15,7 44,3 32,6 2,7
Italien 4,7 28,8 52,8 3,7
Luxemburg 90,1 96,5 76,4 8,5
Niederlande 65,6 25,2 93,6 3,1
Österreich 0,2* 17,0 71,7 2,9
Portugal 2,5 34,0 53,0 13,0
Schweden 32,0 13,2 96,0 7,4
Spanien 1,3 9,3 39,9 15,9*


But. Around half of all danes and dutch speak german. This already is 12 million. Maybe anouter 10 million or so in eastern europe. Those who speak german as second language must be in the 25 to 55 million range. The highest estimate of 55 million minus the lowest estimate and you have around 40 million who speak it as a second language. Thats why i came up with the 140 million speakers total.

=== speaking of which... ===
no more "famous speakers of". sorry to those who slaved over
the 12 people on the list. it was clearly started as a prank,
has no equivalent on other pages, and should be maintained, if
anywhere, as a list of "languages spoken by" the lists of famous people.
(someone really adventurous could try to migrate the "famous" lists
with all their various attributes to a table in ], and
then set up a dynamic page which would let you see lists of famous people
by whatever characteristics you like. eventually, I am sure this will
emerge...)

== History ==
Copyedit partly from ]. Katholic = Roman Catholic is correct!

== Names of German language in other languages ==

Is this section necessary? I think it would be better to have these translations in the Wiktionary. --] 03:28, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I am removing (commenting) the Latvian entry because it seems highly improbable that v&#257;cieš&#363; (or its Lithuanian cogante vokie&#269;i&#371;) has anything to do, etymologically, with the Indo-European root of ''deutsch''. They should probably be classified under a heading of their own. Any idea ? ] 16:14, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
* I think it is one of the most interresting sections of the article, it should be expanded with a small text, explaining why these differences occur. -] 17:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)


----
I object the paragraph beginning with reference to Austria-Hungary. First, it's a factual non-sense, as there was no such thing as Austria-Hungary in the mid nineteenth century.<BR>
Secondly, Prague was never primarily German, if not for the brief period of 18th century, and even for that time, its "primary Germanity" could be disputed.
I suggest rephrasing the entire paragraph to something more easily maintainable as true. --] 07:32, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

:Sorry, I meant to say the Habsburg Empire. I agree Prague used to be Czech, and was later Czech, so the German character was an "interuption" of sorts, but according to my figures, in 1815 there were 50,000 German speakers in Prague, only 15,000 Czech speakers. (], ''The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918'', p. 24.) By 1848 there were more Czechs, but German was still the primary language of public discourse. Lets not forget that Prague was called Prag at the time.

However, I was too categorical in my paragraph, and am more than wiling to see it rewritten to reflect some moderation.

] 13:27, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)


-----
''German is also the most commonly used language on the Internet after English.''

First I dont know what precisely it should mean, second methodology of statistics which I had seen was not convincing. Wether German is second as stated in aticle or fifth as in or any other number from 2nd to lets say 10... it all doeas not make much sense. ] 00:04, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

==recently? gimme a laugh!==
''Until recently, however, German was printed in Gothic black letters (Fraktur, or Schwabacher) and written in Sütterlin.''

This is true if ''recently'' means 70 to 90 years ago. :) -- ] 22:51, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
:Seems recent, in the life of a thousand- or so year-old language, but "recently" is fairly unencycopedic; the by ] in response to the by ] is good for that reason. --]] 18:24, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

== Mutual Intelligibility ==
Removed
: Many dialects aren't understandable for someone who knows standard German.
as (poorly stated) and redundant to
: Only the neighbouring dialects are mutually understandable.
Someone better informed ''may'' be able to effect a more accurate harmonization.<br>
--]] 18:24, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)

:I've more or less reverted your edit and added some explanations. I hope it isn't redundant any more. ] 10:26, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== language vs (language) ==

] requires "German language" instead of "German (language)", and the rule is followed for hundreds of other language, so I'm at a loss as to why this article has been moved. ] 05:33, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

:You're right, the "German language" form is standard. I don't know why it was moved, either. I've moved it back. ] 17:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

== Spelling reform of 1996 ==

I realised that an edit of mine concerning the Spelling reform of 1996 wasn't quite balanced (and quickly improved by Martg76). However, on second thoughts, the present article is not the place to duplicate an overview of a debate that is covered in larger detail in ], so I referred the entire topic to that article.

==composite words and genitiv case==

I'm a German speaker and have no idea why the genitiv case is supposed to be waning. This is not the case. Everyone will still say: Das ist das Rathaus der Stadt (This is the council building of the town). Any possession would be expressed that way. On the other hand many dialects don't have a genetiv case, but that is not a new development.
It has been decried lately that the dativ case is disappearing and often being merged with the akkusativ case.
As to composite words, the example (Donaudampf...) is the one always given to state what a complicated language German is. The translation makes it purposely sound worse and could be done easier: service cap of a Danube steam shipping captain. It should also be stated, that such long composites are grammatically possible but not in use.
After 1945 new words have hardly been created by composites. In my opinion the reason is the total loss of self esteem, understandably, of the scientific community and also, the preference of English for marketing reasons. The creation of new German words like Fernseher, Flugzeug, Sauerstoff, Stickstoff etc. instead of using Latin or Greek roots reflect a different state of mind at the time these things were invented or discovered.]

* Good points all. I changed the Donaudampf... after your example. (Next time you see something that can be improvee, '''just do it'''!) The entire section on compound nouns is bad, and focussed on "things that are funny to English speakers". It's also misleading (television is a compound noun just like Fernseher is, and Fernseher isn't actually a compound noun in the first place!), and downright wrong (after the reform, other compounds aren't joined. Actually, English has "instead of" while German now has "an Stelle von"). I urge you to rewrite that part, and give the rest of the page a much-needed look as well. Also, the section about philosophy ("many believe"...) probably isn't verifiable and needs to go (unless there is a source). ] 12:58, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Especially since composition is also found in English. It works exactly the same way as in German. The only difference is that in German, the compound will be written as a single word, but in English as separate words. This is a mere question of orthography. Even the stress rules are identical. Compare English ''tree house'' to German ''Baumhaus''. You may even translate ''Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapitänsmütze'' by ''Danube steem shipping company capitain cap'' (of course, nobody would use this in either language) ] 13:26, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

::Nice changes. I edited some more, linking to a page about English compounds, and used the same terminology as that page. I also used some ''closed'' English compounds like summertime and doghouse to explain the concept.

I'm a native German speaker and i think the genitive case is supposed to be waning. It's right everyone says "das Rathaus der Stadt", but "Stadt" is feminine. Today, more people say instead of "das Dach des Hauses" (the roof of the house) "das Dach vom Haus" or instead of "das Bein des Hundes" (the leg of the dog)"das Beim vom/ von dem Hund" ("Haus" is neuter, "Hund" is masculine). Perhaps it takes too long to prononce the "-es". Please say what you think. ]

* Joined compounds in German seem to have an undending fascination for English speakers. Now 84.56.237.28 has added a new one, after we removed the Donaudampfschiff.... (See discussion above.) Is the really important enough to be mentioned on this page? Words like that are just a curiosity, and virtually never used. To me, that means they shouldn't be used to explain German, just like is a bad way to explain English. On the other hand, "interesting" stuff like "funny long words" does belong to an encyclopedia almost by definition, so there certainly ''is'' a place for these curiosities. I have no problem with the linked entry to -- that's good stuff. (Even though I changed the claim that these things are "common" in German to them being "possible"). Maybe some wordsmithing in the current article all it takes... ] 07:56, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Sommerzeit ==

Under grammar>noun inflection, the author has made a false friend: Sommerzeit doesn't mean what it sounds like. It means daylight savings time.
:''Sommerzeit'' can mean either daylight saving time or summertime. I think just the one meaning is enough here as it isn't really relevant to the article. ] 09:24, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

== Third or fourth most popular foreign language taught in the U.S.? ==

In the article, it says, "German is the third most popular foreign language taught worldwide, and the second most popular in Europe (after English) and the fourth in the USA (after Spanish and French)." Now shouldn't it be ''either'' the '''third''' most popular foreign language taught in the U.S. ''or'' the '''fourth''', with the third most popular--whichever it may be--added to the list? --] 20:49, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
*Although I think German should be the most teached language in Europe (it is in fact very useful, even in southern European countries like mine is), I also believe it is the third, and far from English and French. -] 17:20, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Some corrections, and some doubts ==

I have replaced the totally bogus claim of 120 million Europeans speaking German. They are only 96.75 million in 2004, and that's just 13.3% of Europeans (not 25% as what bombastically stated). Also, German is only the third most taught foreign language in Europe, not the second. French was forgotten. French is the most taught foreign language in the UK, Ireland, and Romania, and it is the second most taught foreign language in many European countries, including, for that matter, Germany itself.

Also, I find the figure of 120 million German speakers in the world quite dubious. There are only 96.75 of them in Europe. That would mean there would be 23.25 million German speakers in the Americas, in Australia, and in the south of Africa. That seems to me quite impossible. According to the 2000 US census, there were only 1,382,613 people age 5 y/o and over who spoke German at home in the US. The US is the largest pool of German speakers outside of Europe, so I don't see how the figures can add up to 120 million. Should we change the number? We can't know for sure the number of German speakers in the world, but I reckon a realistic estimate for the whole world would be approximately 100 million people whose main language is German (96.75 million in Europe, approx. 1.5 million in the US, approx. 1.5 million in Brazil, and the remaining few hundred thousands in Paraguay, Australia, South Africa, Namibia, and so on). Waiting for your comment before I change the figure. ] 13:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

:According to , which is widely accepted as authoritative, there are ''"75,300,000 in Germany"'' (1990), ''"Population total all countries: 95,392,978."''. That apparently exludes second language speakers resident in Germany, most of whom approach native speaker competence. The ] states a figure of 101 million native speakers. I assume this would ''include'' German speakers with a non-German ethnic background living in one of the German-speaking countries. Further, the article lists 120 million second language speakers, which I suppose probably includes people with a rudimentary memory of school German... As for the percentage of Europeans speaking German, that probably depends on who you count in as a European. I suppose the percentage given is based on the pre-2004 European Union. --] 16:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

* Personally, I don't see nor accept Ethnologue has authoritive, but JUST has ''''useful'''. It would be useful if some German would explore this issue, and see where German is actually spoken. Because using ancient emigration is duping. Some people that were descendant from emigrants to Germany, maybe have German has native language or his/hers parents language. We don't know, unless there is a study about that. -] 17:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Third most taught language in Europe - Vandalism ==

An anonymous user keeps deleting the reference to German being the third most taught foreign language in Europe, insistig on putting that it is the second most taught. I believe this is nationalist vandalism. The number of pupils studying foreign languages in Europe is particularly well documented, because the European Union conducts some surveys every year. People can check extensive data at . According to EU data, French is the second most taught foreign language in the EU (of 25 members), while German is only third. The latest data I saw showed that approximately 28% of junior high school (middle high school) students in the EU (of 25 members) study French as a foreign language, while only 20% study German as a foreign language. In high schools, about 29% study French as a foreign language, while 28% study German. Figures for English are around 90%, both in junior high schools and in high schools. Any new nationalist vandalism on that subject will be reported to some admins. ] 16:35, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:43, 27 November 2024

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German language was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.
Review: October 13, 2006.
Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, and are not for engaging in discussion of off-topic matters not related to the main article. User talk pages are more appropriate for non-article-related discussion topics. Please do not use this page as a discussion forum for off-topic matters. See talk page guidelines.

poor article contradicts itself in multiple ways

  • intro: "or more precisely High German" and table with "Language family ... High German" vs. ISO 639-3 in the talble: "nds – Low German"
    Low German is not High German
  • nativename in the table: "Deutsch" vs. bar – Bavarian etc. in the table
    in the various dialects like Bavarian the term for German is different, e.g. in ksh – Kölsch it's Dütsch (cp. WT)
  • WP speaks of "High German languages" (plural), yet this is only "German language" (singular). German is broader than High German, so it should be German languages, or German here is short for Standard German which already has a more proper article.

date=June 2023

I am moving this here sic erat from a cleanup hatnote posted by this anonymous user. Dylanvt (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Cluster

From the article:

The Low Franconian dialects Nevertheless, topologically these dialects are structurally and phonologically far more similar to Dutch, than to German and form both the smallest and most divergent dialect cluster within the contemporary German language area.
  1. Niebaum 2011, p. 98.

    2. As for the source:

    • That's not properly cited, as it lacks the other author Jürgen Macha and as the year or edition is wrong (1st 1999, 2nd 2006, 3rd 2014 - 2011 could only be a reprint or a re-release as e-book or something)
    • Quoting from the 3rd ed. as here the text is (basically) the same and as this can still be viewed online:
      Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen, 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104 ()): "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“

    Thus:

    • The source doesn't state that Low Franconian is the smallest and most divergent cluster. It's stating that Ripuarisch + Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch form a heterogeneous area. So both the dialect(s) and the degree of comparison (superlative vs. positive) aren't sourced.
    • Article stated: "within the contemporary German language area". There's a difference between "in Germany" and "in the German language area". The German language area also comprehends Austria and Switzerland. As the source only considered Germany, the wording in the article wasn't correct.

    -06:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

    Germanics

    The German article on the Germanics https://de.wikipedia.org/Germanen says, that the concept can be defined historically outside the linguistic sphere. Sarcelles (talk) 19:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

    The very concept of Germanics is disputed by science in Germany, this German article says sourcedly. Furthermore, Germanics hardly is used as a concept for the present by Germans nowadays. Sarcelles (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    One problem here is that "Germanics" is simply not a term found in the English-language literature, so arguing that there's something wrong with it is entirely beside the point. --Pfold (talk) 08:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    The word "Germanics" doesn't appear in the article, so why are you discussing this here? Largoplazo (talk) 09:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    12 pages link to Germanics, a redirect to German peoples.
    Maybe we should discuss this on another talk page. Sarcelles (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

    Luxembourg

    @KoreaJAP: Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

    I have corrected it. KoreaJAP (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

    Recognized minority language in Hungary

    The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. 2001:4C4E:24A1:FE00:7A14:F228:7166:600D (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

    Categories: