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imho South Tyrol is not an enclave region, as it has borders to Austria. --] 01:54 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
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== poor article contradicts itself in multiple ways ==
==Deleting things==
Hi 200.180.187.44 , could you please state, why you deleted this text? If there is a reason, it is ok. Please let me know, Thanks :-) ] 16:02, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


* intro: "or more precisely High German" and table with "Language family ... High German" vs. ISO 639-3 in the talble: "nds – Low German"
==German speakers==
*: Low German is not High German
Germany approx. 82 m
* nativename in the table: "{{lang|de|Deutsch}}" vs. bar – Bavarian etc. in the table
Austria approx. 7 m
*: in the various dialects like Bavarian the term for German is different, e.g. in ksh – Kölsch it's ''Dütsch'' (cp. )
Switzerland approx 5 m
* WP speaks of "]" (plural), yet this is only "]" (singular). German is broader than High German, so it should be ''German language'''s''''', or German here is short for ] which already has a more proper article.
Belgium, Denmark, Italy and Luxemburg 1 m
date=June 2023
France approx. 1 m
Poland approx. 1 m
Russia approx. 2 m


I am moving this here ''sic erat'' from a ] posted by ]. ] (]) 20:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Together approx. 99 m


== Cluster ==
http://www.detlev-mahnert.de/deutsch_in_europa.html
From the article:
states around 100 million native speakers and 140 million total (only in europe).
:The ] dialects Nevertheless, topologically these dialects are structurally and phonologically far more similar to Dutch, than to German and form both the smallest and most divergent dialect cluster within the contemporary German language area.{{sfn|Niebaum|2011|p=98}}
:<references/>
:* {{cite book |last=Niebaum |first=Hermann |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=eG0l63rBggsC |title=Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen |date=2011 |publisher=Niemeyer |isbn=978-3-11-091654-6 |edition=2nd |location=Tübingen |language=de |trans-title=Introduction to the dialectology of German |chapter=Wege und Schwerpunkte der deutschen Dialektologie |trans-chapter=Ways and focuses of German dialectology }}
As for the source:
* That's not properly cited, as it lacks the other author Jürgen Macha and as the year or edition is wrong (1st 1999, 2nd 2006, 3rd 2014 - 2011 could only be a reprint or a re-release as e-book or something)
* Quoting from the 3rd ed. as here the text is (basically) the same and as this can still be viewed online:<br/>Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, ''Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen'', 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104 ()): "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“
Thus:
* The source doesn't state that Low Franconian is the smallest and most divergent cluster. It's stating that ''Ripuarisch + Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch'' form a heterogeneous area. So both the dialect(s) and the ] (superlative vs. positive) aren't sourced.
* Article stated: "within the contemporary German language area". There's a difference between "in Germany" and "in the German language area". The German language area also comprehends Austria and Switzerland. As the source only considered Germany, the wording in the article wasn't correct.
-06:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)


== Germanics ==
http://www.rom.diplo.de/de/kultur/deutsch_lernen/dt-sprachenverbreitung.html
" Die Zahl der in- und ausländischen Staatsbürger im In- und Ausland, die Deutsch als Muttersprache in Wort und Schrift beherrschen liegt bei ca. 91- 92 Millionen (Schätzung anhand der Einwohnerzahl deutschsprachiger Gebiete). Die Zahl derjenigen, die Deutsch als Fremdsprache beherrschen, wird zwischen 25 und 55 Millionen geschätzt. Deutsch ist die meistgesprochene Muttersprache in der Europäischen Union"


The German article on the Germanics https://de.wikipedia.org/Germanen says, that the concept can be defined historically outside the linguistic sphere. ] (]) 19:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Where do the other 20 m German-speaking people live ?
Do you want to include foreign-language speakers ?
] 15:35, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)


:The very concept of ''Germanics'' is disputed by science in Germany, this German article says sourcedly. Furthermore, ''Germanics'' hardly is used as a concept for the present by Germans nowadays. ] (]) 08:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Most sources i know say approximately 100 million native speakers.
::One problem here is that "Germanics" is simply not a term found in the English-language literature, so arguing that there's something wrong with it is entirely beside the point. --] (]) 08:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Total is a little more difficult and could only be an educated guess.
:The word "Germanics" doesn't appear in the article, so why are you discussing this here? ] (]) 09:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
::12 pages link to ], a redirect to ].
::Maybe we should discuss this on another talk page. ] (]) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


== Luxembourg ==
Maybe this table can show it:


{{ping|KoreaJAP}} Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--] (]) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
Frage: "Apart from your mother tongue, which of these languages can you speak well enough to take part in a conversation?" -
Dabei waren die 11 EU- Sprachen sowie die Antwortmöglichkeiten "other" und "none" vorgegeben)


:<s>I have corrected it. ] (]) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)</s>
In % Deutsch Französ. Englisch Spanisch
Belgien 15,3 49,4 59,6 5,2
Dänemark 65,9 12,1 95,6 7,5
Deutschland 2,4* 17,7 70,3 2,3
- West 2,9* 19,9 74,2 2,7
- Ost 0,3* 8,8 53,7 0,7
Finnland 23,9 8,2 91,7 2,0
Frankreich 12,7 6,5* 63,3 24,7
Griechenland 5,3 10,6 67,2 1,1
Großbritannien 11,9 28,4 8,7* 4,1
Irland 15,7 44,3 32,6 2,7
Italien 4,7 28,8 52,8 3,7
Luxemburg 90,1 96,5 76,4 8,5
Niederlande 65,6 25,2 93,6 3,1
Österreich 0,2* 17,0 71,7 2,9
Portugal 2,5 34,0 53,0 13,0
Schweden 32,0 13,2 96,0 7,4
Spanien 1,3 9,3 39,9 15,9*


== Recognized minority language in Hungary ==


The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. ] (]) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
But. Around half of all danes and dutch speak german. This already is 12 million. Maybe anouter 10 million or so in eastern europe. Those who speak german as second language must be in the 25 to 55 million range. The highest estimate of 55 million minus the lowest estimate and you have around 40 million who speak it as a second language. Thats why i came up with the 140 million speakers total.

=== speaking of which... ===
no more "famous speakers of". sorry to those who slaved over
the 12 people on the list. it was clearly started as a prank,
has no equivalent on other pages, and should be maintained, if
anywhere, as a list of "languages spoken by" the lists of famous people.
(someone really adventurous could try to migrate the "famous" lists
with all their various attributes to a table in ], and
then set up a dynamic page which would let you see lists of famous people
by whatever characteristics you like. eventually, I am sure this will
emerge...)

== History ==
Copyedit partly from ]. Katholic = Roman Catholic is correct!

== Names of German language in other languages ==

Is this section necessary? I think it would be better to have these translations in the Wiktionary. --] 03:28, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

----
I object the paragraph beginning with reference to Austria-Hungary. First, it's a factual non-sense, as there was no such thing as Austria-Hungary in the mid nineteenth century.<BR>
Secondly, Prague was never primarily German, if not for the brief period of 18th century, and even for that time, its "primary Germanity" could be disputed.
I suggest rephrasing the entire paragraph to something more easily maintainable as true. --] 07:32, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

:Sorry, I meant to say the Habsburg Empire. I agree Prague used to be Czech, and was later Czech, so the German character was an "interuption" of sorts, but according to my figures, in 1815 there were 50,000 German speakers in Prague, only 15,000 Czech speakers. (], ''The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918'', p. 24.) By 1848 there were more Czechs, but German was still the primary language of public discourse. Lets not forget that Prague was called Prag at the time.

However, I was too categorical in my paragraph, and am more than wiling to see it rewritten to reflect some moderation.

] 13:27, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 10:43, 27 November 2024

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German language was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.
Review: October 13, 2006.
Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, and are not for engaging in discussion of off-topic matters not related to the main article. User talk pages are more appropriate for non-article-related discussion topics. Please do not use this page as a discussion forum for off-topic matters. See talk page guidelines.

poor article contradicts itself in multiple ways

  • intro: "or more precisely High German" and table with "Language family ... High German" vs. ISO 639-3 in the talble: "nds – Low German"
    Low German is not High German
  • nativename in the table: "Deutsch" vs. bar – Bavarian etc. in the table
    in the various dialects like Bavarian the term for German is different, e.g. in ksh – Kölsch it's Dütsch (cp. WT)
  • WP speaks of "High German languages" (plural), yet this is only "German language" (singular). German is broader than High German, so it should be German languages, or German here is short for Standard German which already has a more proper article.

date=June 2023

I am moving this here sic erat from a cleanup hatnote posted by this anonymous user. Dylanvt (talk) 20:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Cluster

From the article:

The Low Franconian dialects Nevertheless, topologically these dialects are structurally and phonologically far more similar to Dutch, than to German and form both the smallest and most divergent dialect cluster within the contemporary German language area.
  1. Niebaum 2011, p. 98.

    2. As for the source:

    • That's not properly cited, as it lacks the other author Jürgen Macha and as the year or edition is wrong (1st 1999, 2nd 2006, 3rd 2014 - 2011 could only be a reprint or a re-release as e-book or something)
    • Quoting from the 3rd ed. as here the text is (basically) the same and as this can still be viewed online:
      Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen, 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104 ()): "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“

    Thus:

    • The source doesn't state that Low Franconian is the smallest and most divergent cluster. It's stating that Ripuarisch + Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch form a heterogeneous area. So both the dialect(s) and the degree of comparison (superlative vs. positive) aren't sourced.
    • Article stated: "within the contemporary German language area". There's a difference between "in Germany" and "in the German language area". The German language area also comprehends Austria and Switzerland. As the source only considered Germany, the wording in the article wasn't correct.

    -06:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

    Germanics

    The German article on the Germanics https://de.wikipedia.org/Germanen says, that the concept can be defined historically outside the linguistic sphere. Sarcelles (talk) 19:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

    The very concept of Germanics is disputed by science in Germany, this German article says sourcedly. Furthermore, Germanics hardly is used as a concept for the present by Germans nowadays. Sarcelles (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    One problem here is that "Germanics" is simply not a term found in the English-language literature, so arguing that there's something wrong with it is entirely beside the point. --Pfold (talk) 08:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    The word "Germanics" doesn't appear in the article, so why are you discussing this here? Largoplazo (talk) 09:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
    12 pages link to Germanics, a redirect to German peoples.
    Maybe we should discuss this on another talk page. Sarcelles (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

    Luxembourg

    @KoreaJAP: Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

    I have corrected it. KoreaJAP (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

    Recognized minority language in Hungary

    The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. 2001:4C4E:24A1:FE00:7A14:F228:7166:600D (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

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