| Revision as of 18:28, 3 March 2024 editUtopes (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, IP block exemptions, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers37,948 edits Notification: listing of Michael Collins (Irish leader at WP:Redirects for discussion.Tag: Twinkle← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:23, 29 November 2024 edit undoJohn Not Real Name (talk | contribs)103 edits →"Death" or "Assassination"? |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Collins, Michael|1= |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Collins, Michael|1= |
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{{WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Irish Republicanism|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Ireland|importance=high}} |
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== Suggestion to Editors of This Page == |
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== S.M. Sigerson == |
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One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919" |
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What makes this person any kind of authority on the death of Michael Collins? Their book appears to be self-published thus failing ], so I intend to remove it unless evidence of reliability can be provided. I note {{ping|Scolaire}} was particularly scathing regarding this person at ]. ] (]) 23:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC) |
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This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. ] (]) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:I have removed this book. ] (]) 12:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:Good point, thank you. Terminology tweaked to clear this up ] (]) 20:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3#Michael Collins (Irish leader}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">] <sub>(''']''' / ''']''')</sub></span> 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Death" or "Assassination"? == |
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== Terrorist == |
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A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: ] and ], where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. ] (]) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Shouldn't the article mention the fact that he was a terrorist? (] (]) 13:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC)) |
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:Do you have a source? ] ~ ] <span style="font-size: 10px; color: #161;">(])</span> 06:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:Collins was killed in action. (] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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:I am not sure assassination is fair. It was an ambush. An assassination is when the I.R.A. shot Teachta Dálas. In this case there was no plan to just kill him but by accident he happened upon them and they quickly moved to exploit it because they knew he had to return by that route. You could argue it is only an assassination if the person killed is important (During War-Time.). Being pernickety about it, he was a valid target militarily speaking as he was in control of the military. ] (]) 23:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-11-mn-5909-story.html (] (]) 12:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::One sentence - "To some he was a freedom fighter, to others a terrorist" - from a thirty year old American newspaper cannot be used as a source to state Collins was a terrorist. Please read up on some Misplaced Pages policies: ], ], ], ] and ] would be good starting points. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::::There are numerous other sources: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/COLLINS-TERRORIST-AS-HERO-3117609.php (] (]) 21:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::So after your {{tq|thirty year old American newspaper}} is objected to you respond with a film review from a 24 year old America newspaper? Laughable. ] (]) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::Collins died a century ago. Why does it matter how old the sources are? (] (]) 21:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::::Age is irrelevant. A film review is a reference for a film, not the subject of a film. ] (]) 21:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::I see you also didn't bother with the links {{ping|Bastun}} left for you. In particular I suggest you read ], especially the part about in-text attribution being required. I also suggest you read ], especially how the lead summarises the article so doesn't (or shouldn't, just in case this lead isn't currently 100% compliant) include things not mentioned elsewhere. ] (]) 21:45, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::The lede of Osama bin Laden's article says he was described as a terrorist, so there should be mention of this in the article on Michael Collins. He deliberately chose not to fight using conventional methods, despite the objections of de Valera. (] (]) 22:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::::::Contents of one article are not determined by contents of another, but by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. ] (]) 22:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== References == |
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== Northern Ireland == |
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Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Would anyone object if the book references were converted to Harvard style citations? An example of how they work can be see at ]. At the moment they are a complete mish-mash of different formats, so it's impossible to even say which, if any, is the current style used in this article. |
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:Ok, please correct that with a reference ] (]) 12:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Also, there are many references that need to be removed. I do not feel like delving through the history to see who is responsible, but it appears that whoever was responsible cited the primary sources that were cited by the secondaryu sources (that's books, generally speaking). That's why there are citations with insufficient information such as; |
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::There was this newspaper article, but it seems not to be online now: https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-the-big-fellow-has-little-to-teach-political-parties-in-modern-ireland-2307165.html (] (]) 18:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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*British Cabinet minutes, memoranda |
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:I know he had talks with the Northern-Premier and in any case the Irish Civil War (1922-1923) meant that even the Northern Irish Republican Army went South to fight for the Provisional Government. ] (]) 23:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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*MC official correspondence, 5 and 10 April 1922 |
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*Michael Collins letter to Churchill 6 June 1922 |
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*Michael Collins – Winston Churchill correspondence June 1922 |
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*Public Records Office, Dublin |
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*Michael Collins field diary, 22 August 1922 |
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The penultimate one is particularly egregious, how is anyone supposed to know what they are looking for?? ] (]) 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== Middle Name == |
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:No objection here - consistent formatting would be an improvement. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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What is his middle-name? ] (]) 23:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thank you. ] does say consensus is required before changing from one style to another, so thought it safest to raise the issue here first. ] (]) 07:52, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== A few minor amendments == |
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I have made some amendments to a single paragraph to remove any bias or presumption of motive. As follows: |
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Collins and his Squad killed several British secret service agents in a series of coordinated raids. |
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To: |
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Collins and his Squad killed several people in a series of coordinated raids, including a number of British secret service agents |
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Reason: |
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Not all the of those killed were members of Cairo gang and at least one was just a member of public. |
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From: |
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In retaliation, members of the Royal Irish Constabulary |
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To: |
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Members of the Royal Irish Constabulary |
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This is a presumption of motive given by IRA propaganda at the time. |
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A stampede of panicking British operatives |
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Many British operatives |
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Reason: |
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This is not a NPOV statement. |
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] (]) 16:33, 23 October 2021 (UTC) |
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== Suggestion to Editors of This Page == |
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One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919" |
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This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. ] (]) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:Good point, thank you. Terminology tweaked to clear this up ] (]) 20:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3#Michael Collins (Irish leader}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">] <sub>(''']''' / ''']''')</sub></span> 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919"
This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. 85.208.36.24 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: Assassination of Reinhard Heydrich and Dzhokhar Dudayev, where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. BRMSF (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ParsleySt1 (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
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The redirect Michael Collins (Irish leader has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § Michael Collins (Irish leader until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)