| Revision as of 08:31, 20 August 2024 editParsleySt1 (talk | contribs)36 edits →Northern Ireland: new sectionTag: New topic← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:23, 29 November 2024 edit undoJohn Not Real Name (talk | contribs)103 edits →"Death" or "Assassination"? |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Collins, Michael|1= |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|class=B|vital=yes|living=no|listas=Collins, Michael|1= |
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{{WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom|importance=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Irish Republicanism|importance=top}} |
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{{WikiProject Ireland|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Ireland|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Low|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Low|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=Mid}} |
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{{WikiProject Northern Ireland|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Northern Ireland|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Gaelic games|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Gaelic games|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Irish republicanism|importance=top}} |
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|archive = Talk:Michael Collins (Irish leader)/Archive %(counter)d |
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== References == |
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Would anyone object if the book references were converted to Harvard style citations? An example of how they work can be see at ]. At the moment they are a complete mish-mash of different formats, so it's impossible to even say which, if any, is the current style used in this article. |
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Also, there are many references that need to be removed. I do not feel like delving through the history to see who is responsible, but it appears that whoever was responsible cited the primary sources that were cited by the secondaryu sources (that's books, generally speaking). That's why there are citations with insufficient information such as; |
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*British Cabinet minutes, memoranda |
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*MC official correspondence, 5 and 10 April 1922 |
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*Michael Collins letter to Churchill 6 June 1922 |
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*Michael Collins – Winston Churchill correspondence June 1922 |
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*Public Records Office, Dublin |
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*Michael Collins field diary, 22 August 1922 |
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The penultimate one is particularly egregious, how is anyone supposed to know what they are looking for?? ] (]) 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:No objection here - consistent formatting would be an improvement. ]<sup>]</sup> 00:06, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::Thank you. ] does say consensus is required before changing from one style to another, so thought it safest to raise the issue here first. ] (]) 07:52, 5 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== A few minor amendments == |
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I have made some amendments to a single paragraph to remove any bias or presumption of motive. As follows: |
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From: |
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Collins and his Squad killed several British secret service agents in a series of coordinated raids. |
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To: |
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Collins and his Squad killed several people in a series of coordinated raids, including a number of British secret service agents |
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Reason: |
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Not all the of those killed were members of Cairo gang and at least one was just a member of public. |
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From: |
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In retaliation, members of the Royal Irish Constabulary |
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To: |
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Members of the Royal Irish Constabulary |
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Reason: |
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This is a presumption of motive given by IRA propaganda at the time. |
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From: |
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A stampede of panicking British operatives |
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To: |
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Many British operatives |
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Reason: |
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This is not a NPOV statement. |
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] (]) 16:33, 23 October 2021 (UTC) |
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== Suggestion to Editors of This Page == |
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== Suggestion to Editors of This Page == |
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A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: ] and ], where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. ] (]) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: ] and ], where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. ] (]) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:Collins was killed in action. (] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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:I am not sure assassination is fair. It was an ambush. An assassination is when the I.R.A. shot Teachta Dálas. In this case there was no plan to just kill him but by accident he happened upon them and they quickly moved to exploit it because they knew he had to return by that route. You could argue it is only an assassination if the person killed is important (During War-Time.). Being pernickety about it, he was a valid target militarily speaking as he was in control of the military. ] (]) 23:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Northern Ireland == |
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== Northern Ireland == |
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Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Ok, please correct that with a reference ] (]) 12:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC) |
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::There was this newspaper article, but it seems not to be online now: https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-the-big-fellow-has-little-to-teach-political-parties-in-modern-ireland-2307165.html (] (]) 18:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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:I know he had talks with the Northern-Premier and in any case the Irish Civil War (1922-1923) meant that even the Northern Irish Republican Army went South to fight for the Provisional Government. ] (]) 23:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Middle Name == |
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What is his middle-name? ] (]) 23:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919"
This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. 85.208.36.24 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: Assassination of Reinhard Heydrich and Dzhokhar Dudayev, where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. BRMSF (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ParsleySt1 (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
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The redirect Michael Collins (Irish leader has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § Michael Collins (Irish leader until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)