| Revision as of 22:08, 4 December 2020 editFDW777 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users27,732 edits →Terrorist: add reply← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 23:23, 29 November 2024 edit undoJohn Not Real Name (talk | contribs)103 edits →"Death" or "Assassination"? |
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== Suggestion to Editors of This Page == |
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== Death section == |
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I have made some changes to this section. Firstly the last sentence reading "Writers on the subject such as J. Feehan and S.M. Sigerson have called for a full forensic examination of Collins's remains in order to attempt to settle at least some of these controversies concerning his end". While some may point out this is one of the few sourced sentences in the section, I will counter by saying its inclusion at present makes no sense. The section does not detail any "controversies" which may need settling. My second change is to move the opening paragraph to the end of the section. I believe immediately introducing conspiracy theories (which for the record are not even mentioned, leaving the reader perplexed as to what they actually are) is inappropriate, and is best done after detailing what appear to be the undisputed facts of his death. ] (]) 16:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:I agree. --] (]) 20:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Agreed as well. ] (]) 13:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC) |
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:Strongly agreed too ] (]) 12:34, 18 January 2019 (UTC) |
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== Reverted photograph == |
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One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919" |
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The reasoning does not make sense. Did the reverted image not identify Collins? It did not obscure his face or body, and in fact it was sharper, higher in resolution, and had higher photographic quality. Most other language versions of Misplaced Pages use that photograph as well ] (]) 10:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC) |
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This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. ] (]) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC) |
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:Good point, thank you. Terminology tweaked to clear this up ] (]) 20:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC) |
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== S.M. Sigerson == |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3#Michael Collins (Irish leader}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> <span style="background-color: #FFCFBF; font-variant: small-caps">] <sub>(''']''' / ''']''')</sub></span> 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Death" or "Assassination"? == |
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What makes this person any kind of authority on the death of Michael Collins? Their book appears to be self-published thus failing ], so I intend to remove it unless evidence of reliability can be provided. I note {{ping|Scolaire}} was particularly scathing regarding this person at ]. ] (]) 23:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC) |
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A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: ] and ], where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. ] (]) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:I have removed this book. ] (]) 12:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC) |
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:Collins was killed in action. (] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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:I am not sure assassination is fair. It was an ambush. An assassination is when the I.R.A. shot Teachta Dálas. In this case there was no plan to just kill him but by accident he happened upon them and they quickly moved to exploit it because they knew he had to return by that route. You could argue it is only an assassination if the person killed is important (During War-Time.). Being pernickety about it, he was a valid target militarily speaking as he was in control of the military. ] (]) 23:21, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Terrorist == |
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== Northern Ireland == |
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Shouldn't the article mention the fact that he was a terrorist? (] (]) 13:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC)) |
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Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ] (]) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Do you have a source? ] ~ ] <span style="font-size: 10px; color: #161;">(])</span> 06:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::Yes: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-11-mn-5909-story.html (] (]) 12:36, 23 November 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::One sentence - "To some he was a freedom fighter, to others a terrorist" - from a thirty year old American newspaper cannot be used as a source to state Collins was a terrorist. Please read up on some Misplaced Pages policies: ], ], ], ] and ] would be good starting points. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC) |
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::::There are numerous other sources: https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/COLLINS-TERRORIST-AS-HERO-3117609.php (] (]) 21:29, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::So after your {{tq|thirty year old American newspaper}} is objected to you respond with a film review from a 24 year old America newspaper? Laughable. ] (]) 21:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::Collins died a century ago. Why does it matter how old the sources are? (] (]) 21:36, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::::Age is irrelevant. A film review is a reference for a film, not the subject of a film. ] (]) 21:39, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::I see you also didn't bother with the links {{ping|Bastun}} left for you. In particular I suggest you read ], especially the part about in-text attribution being required. I also suggest you read ], especially how the lead summarises the article so doesn't (or shouldn't, just in case this lead isn't currently 100% compliant) include things not mentioned elsewhere. ] (]) 21:45, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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::::::::The lede of Osama bin Laden's article says he was described as a terrorist, so there should be mention of this in the article on Michael Collins. He deliberately chose not to fight using conventional methods, despite the objections of de Valera. (] (]) 22:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)) |
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:::::::::Contents of one article are not determined by contents of another, but by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. ] (]) 22:08, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:Ok, please correct that with a reference ] (]) 12:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC) |
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== References == |
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::There was this newspaper article, but it seems not to be online now: https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/why-the-big-fellow-has-little-to-teach-political-parties-in-modern-ireland-2307165.html (] (]) 18:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)) |
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:I know he had talks with the Northern-Premier and in any case the Irish Civil War (1922-1923) meant that even the Northern Irish Republican Army went South to fight for the Provisional Government. ] (]) 23:18, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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== Middle Name == |
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Would anyone object if the book references were converted to Harvard style citations? An example of how they work can be see at ]. At the moment they are a complete mish-mash of different formats, so it's impossible to even say which, if any, is the current style used in this article. |
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What is his middle-name? ] (]) 23:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC) |
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Also, there are many references that need to be removed. I do not feel like delving through the history to see who is responsible, but it appears that whoever was responsible cited the primary sources that were cited by the secondaryu sources (that's books, generally speaking). That's why there are citations with insufficient information such as; |
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*British Cabinet minutes, memoranda |
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*MC official correspondence, 5 and 10 April 1922 |
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*Michael Collins letter to Churchill 6 June 1922 |
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*Michael Collins – Winston Churchill correspondence June 1922 |
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*Public Records Office, Dublin |
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*Michael Collins field diary, 22 August 1922 |
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The penultimate one is particularly egregious, how is anyone supposed to know what they are looking for?? ] (]) 22:07, 4 December 2020 (UTC) |
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One of the paragraphs in the article references Michael Collins' election as a "Teachta Dála" in 1918, although An Dáil Éireann was formed in 1919. Would it not be more suitable to change the statement to "he was elected an MP, later serving as a TD after the forming of the Dáil Éireann on 21 January, 1919"
This is just a suggestiom, I may be wrong which is why I will leave this to any editors and experts on the subject. 85.208.36.24 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
A recent editor contends that "people killed during military engagements in a war aren't assassinated", I would dispute this, assassination is often a tactic of war and is described as such; see: Assassination of Reinhard Heydrich and Dzhokhar Dudayev, where the killings of military leaders in operations specifically intended to target them in the context of military conflict are described as assassinations. The circumstance of Heydrich's death in particular is rather similar; a high-ranking officer was shot in an ambush while he rode in a vehicle. BRMSF (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Collins had already ended his support for an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland before his death, and stopped sending weapons there. ParsleySt1 (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
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The redirect Michael Collins (Irish leader has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 3 § Michael Collins (Irish leader until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)