| Revision as of 18:01, 9 September 2004 editTerrell Larson (talk | contribs)74 edits amount of U235 still present← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 00:19, 5 December 2024 edit undoTypoBoy (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users7,290 edits →Density of depleted uranium: ReplyTag: Reply | ||
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| == Yacht keels == | |||
| I added a section stating: ''DU munitions (in the form of tank and naval artillery rounds) are also deployed by the armed forces of the ]''. Evidence for this is found in on p56, which quotes a Lewis Moonie, a UK defence minister : '' Two types of DU-based munitions are available to British Forces, a 120 mm anti-tank round and 20 mm round used by some Royal Navy ships''. I didn't add this to the main page's references, as I figure the issue is minor and uncontentious, and the quoted document as a whole isn't suitable source material. -- ] 22:55, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC) | |||
| At least one of the French ]s that were built as ] challengers used a DU keel, possibly ]. I'm looking for references, any help appreciated. ] (]) 17:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| I cannot find any reference to France exporting depleted uranium weapons and rather references to France not being too hot on these. I'll remove this paragraph until somebody finds a reference. | |||
| From memory it was one of the yachts financed by ], which means in 1970, 1974, 1977 or 1980, so it wasn't France 3 which was a 1983 effort. ] (]) 17:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| France also export depleted uranium munitions, including some made to be used in the 100mm guns used on older Soviet T54 and T55 and Chinese Type 1959 and Type 1969 ]s, old Soviet SU100 ] destroyers, and old Soviet 100mm antitank guns (these old tanks and antitank guns are very common around the world, due mainly to Soviet military aid during the Cold War).] 00:44, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm now less confident that it wasn't ]. There was involvement by a ] or ] involved in that one too. ] (]) 20:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| :There was a Sydney headline "A Baron of beef" at the time but I can't find it in Trove. ] (]) 21:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == |
== Radiological weapon? == | ||
| Can be the DU ammo be categorized as a radiological weapon? Though not used as an area-denial material, the DU has the secondary effect of contaminating the targets it hit (tanks, armoured vehicles, bunkers, etc.). The US vehicles struck by friendly DU rounds in both the Gulf War and the Invasion of Iraq had to be "washed" as they represented some radiological hazard.----] (]) 00:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| concern about chemical toxicity of depleted uranium munitions: is this about the remains of used munition or also about handling munition? - ] 08:05 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC) | |||
| :That doesn't make it a radiological weapon, which are nuclear weapons or ] used for area denial, . ] (]) 17:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well, as DU creates vast contamination areas on battlefields, there is no way to deny that this aspect actually does exist. However, this is not an effect intended by the military. At least they claim not to intend such effects. Nevertheless it might be seen as a criminal act to cause such contamination as an unintended, but predictable and well known effect of DU use. So this is a rather tricky issue. ] (]) 19:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == incorporated DU will directly harm body cell DNA == | |||
| == Estimating harm of small amounts of radiation == | |||
| There should be at least some explanation in the text concerning DU dusts entering body cells when inhaled. This causes radioactive radiation to be created directly in body cells, obviously causing direct harm to cellular DNA, thus probably causing cancer and various birth defects. So far, there is no such aspect mentioned in the article... ?! ] (]) 19:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| ''Recent studies of scientific bodies outside the USA and the UK'' | |||
| == Density of depleted uranium == | |||
| Which studies? Where can one find them? | |||
| The article currently says: | |||
| ''Small amounts of radiation may even be more harmful to the body as bigger doses may be. While bigger doses kill cells, smaller doses only damage them. While dead cells are replaced by the body, these damaged cells are a possible source of cancer.'' | |||
| :Depleted uranium is notable for the extremely high density of its metallic form: at 19.1 grams per cubic centimetre (0.69 lb/cu in), DU is 68.4% denser than lead. | |||
| This is misleading; depleted uranium has the same density as natural ]. It's just that its lower radioactivity makes it useful in applications where the radioactivity of natural uranium would be a problem. | |||
| As far as I know, that is nonsense. What kind of study said that? The more radiation you get (the integral), the worse it is. It is false that "big doses kill cells" while "smaller doses only damage them", both big and small doses kill and damage a certain amount of cells, but of course big do more of both, killing (some cellules) and damaging (many others). | |||
| This section should be modified to make that clear. ] (]) 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| I suggest this be removed, and the source for any other claims be verified. -- ] May 27 10:14 UTC 2003 | |||
| :Technically, depleted uranium is marginally denser than natural uranium, since U-238 has a higher atomic mass than U-235. ;-) But the difference is less than 0.1%, so I would also support a rewording for clarity. One could also mention that DU is not the densest material - gold and most other precious metals are denser, osmium by almost 20%. ] (]) 13:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :This isn't nonsense, it's the basis for chemotherapy. That's why radiation is used to treat cancer - or maybe it's not used anymore, I'm not up on this. Strong doses of radiation will kill weak (e.g. cancerous) cells and leave healthy cells still alive, hopefully. I don't find this passage that ridiculous. ] | |||
| ::I made this change. ] (]) 00:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think you mean 'radiotherapy', not 'chemotherapy'. A higher <i>intensity</i> of (normally local) radiation can be better than low intensity, and of course different kinds of radiation affect in different ways, but in the article it is said <i>dose</i>, which is just the total amount integrated. And for the same kind of radiation, the higher the dose the worse it is (you may still want a high dose to treat a cancer, but that's a very particular case, it's because it is more effective against cancer, not better for the rest of the body). By the way, I didn't say it was ridiculous! Change "nonsense" for "wrong" if you prefer a less loaded word, that's what I should have said anyway. - ] May 28 08:37 UTC 2003 | |||
| ==Calorimeters== | |||
| I've read a significant amount about these calorimeters, the closest I have come to finding that radioactivity is a desirable property is a mention of using it to calibrate the calorimeter. I think we need something far more solid to show that it is a desirable feature, as I see no mention of it vs. Pb, the benefits I saw mentioned are pragmatic relating to the properties of the resulting instruments in detecting scintillations. Of course what I have read has only scratched the surface, so the text may well be correct. All the best: ''] ]''<small> 13:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
| Article about the damage by radiation: http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/lis/14534/1.html | |||
| And something in English as well: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/19/12220 . | |||
| The German article above seems to refer to the English article mentioned right after it. As far as I know, that is pretty good proof, especially when remembering my VERY conditional style when adding these things to the article, so suit yourself. | |||
| --] | |||
| http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/special/irak/14636/1.html German article about possible harm about DU ammunition, | |||
| http://www.physik.uni-oldenburg.de/Docs/puma/radio/Uran_Munition.html#_3.4_Uranverbindungen about DU aerosols, | |||
| http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/co/12222/1.html refers to a UN study about DU ammunition. --] | |||
| :Uhm, I didn't mean any personal attack or anything, sorry if it looked like that. Thanks for adding the links, I think that the article has improved much with them. About the effects of radiation, please see my reply to Graft a few lines above. And just in case you were wondering, I am as much against the use of DU as one can be. - ] May 28 08:37 UTC 2003 | |||
| I think the bullet point stating ''Small amounts of radiation may even be more harmful to the body than bigger doses may be'' should be '''removed.''' This assertion is extremely speculative, and it does seem like nonsense on the face of it. I skimmed the studies, none of which made any firm conclusions, and nowhere did I see this assertion made. The studies themselves dealt with the repair of individual chromosomes and did not make any claims on the effects of lower vs. higher doses of radiation on "the body" of a real creature, or even on an individual cell! The bullet point consists of speculation atop speculation, and damages the credibility of the rest of the article. ] 23:23, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| Guess now I have the facts I need to supply for my claims added into the link section. --] | |||
| ---- | |||
| Got carried away ;). Well, a little sting to pride may pretty well produce results and is one of the best cures for laziness (as I was too lazy to add my sources). So no bad feelings there ;) --] | |||
| == NPOV ? == | |||
| === IAEA papers === | |||
| I think the article comes off too much on the side of opponents of DU usage, and downplays the evidence against its danger by falsely implying that such evidence comes only from the US and UK. I'd consider the International Atomic Energy Agency one of the more reliable sources of such information, and they claim that DU has little if any health risks. They're also hardly known as a US ally, being of the principal critics of the US's handling of the Iraq thing. Their information page about DU can be found here: . In particular, see their answer to the question "Is DU a health hazard", here: (the conclusion is "no"). --] 22:49 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
| : Edited to add this information (while not removing the other information). --] 22:54 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
| :: Hrmm, having only glanced at it, that report seems to deal specifically with Kuwait and the 1991 Gulf war, not other wars where the DU exposure may be higher... ] 22:55 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
| :: Oops sorry I hadn't seen the second page. OK. Fair enough. ] 22:56 19 Jul 2003 (UTC) | |||
| === Other reasons for critizism, use of Uranium in history, non-fissibility, etc. === | |||
| Moved this here because it's style is non-NPOV. Besides interesting information it contains blatant lies. | |||
| ''“Some of us believe that this issue is a red herring, and US military use of depleted uranium is condemned for exactly the same reasons as napalm, cluster bombs, and antipersonnel flechette munitions were decades ago: a not-inconsiderable number of European intellectuals hate America and will seize upon anything whatsoever that they can imagine a way to criticize in order to create a controversy where none existed before.”'' | |||
| :This is highly speculative. Also, wikipedia should not express "our" opinion. | |||
| ''“Note that uranium has long been known to be less toxic than lead; uranium compounds were used commonly in glazes for pottery in Europe for more than one hundred years (if you collect antique earthenware or pottery, you may have some in your collection--look for pottery with a deep red, orange, or burnt umber glaze, dating from before 1940), because it was known to be less toxic than lead. Uranium salts were also once added to decorative glassware to give the glass an iridescent gold or green appearance; this glassware is called Annagruen or Annagelb glass in Germany, or "vaseline glass" in the US.”'' | |||
| :Information about the toxiciy is welcome, though i think the historic use of uranium salts in glasses should fits better on the page about. | |||
| ''“To the extent that uranium demonstrates toxicity, it acts as a heavy metal toxin similar to lead or mercury, differing principally in that it tends to accumulate in the kidneys first and begin causing damage there rather than in the central nervous system (and it is quite capable of killing you, just as mercury or lead is). Depleted uranium is not especially radioactive (it is what's left after the fissile isotopes are removed for use in nuclear power or nuclear weapons) and does not seem to present any significant radiological hazard. As a heavy metal toxin, tungsten is considerably more poisonous than uranium.”'' | |||
| :DU has about 40% the radioactivity natural Uranium. Nobody every claimed that there was a danger of nuclear fissions with DU. | |||
| Misplaced Pages should not try to make one side look silly by showing false or silly arguments for that side. — ] 09:31, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC) | |||
| == amount of U235 still present == | |||
| The artical states there is about 0.2% U235 left in the "depleted uranium". I have other sources that state 0.3% so how sure are we of this number. | |||
| Natural uranium is about 0.71% U235 so this leaves us with 0.2/0.71 = 28% approximately. 0.3% U235 yeilds 42% | |||
| The artical states 60% of the natural radioactivity is still present. Is this in fact the case? | |||
| ---------------- | |||
| Mods to section on ISOTOPES. This needs review! | |||
| ---------------- | |||
| Broken link to "Uranium Proliferation Nice Joke" | |||
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Yacht keels
At least one of the French 12 metre yachts that were built as America's Cup challengers used a DU keel, possibly France 3. I'm looking for references, any help appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
From memory it was one of the yachts financed by Marcel Bich, which means in 1970, 1974, 1977 or 1980, so it wasn't France 3 which was a 1983 effort. Andrewa (talk) 17:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'm now less confident that it wasn't France 3. There was involvement by a Baron Bic or Baron Bich involved in that one too. Andrewa (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- There was a Sydney headline "A Baron of beef" at the time but I can't find it in Trove. Andrewa (talk) 21:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Radiological weapon?
Can be the DU ammo be categorized as a radiological weapon? Though not used as an area-denial material, the DU has the secondary effect of contaminating the targets it hit (tanks, armoured vehicles, bunkers, etc.). The US vehicles struck by friendly DU rounds in both the Gulf War and the Invasion of Iraq had to be "washed" as they represented some radiological hazard.----Darius (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- That doesn't make it a radiological weapon, which are nuclear weapons or dirty bombs used for area denial, . VQuakr (talk) 17:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, as DU creates vast contamination areas on battlefields, there is no way to deny that this aspect actually does exist. However, this is not an effect intended by the military. At least they claim not to intend such effects. Nevertheless it might be seen as a criminal act to cause such contamination as an unintended, but predictable and well known effect of DU use. So this is a rather tricky issue. 88.67.87.171 (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
incorporated DU will directly harm body cell DNA
There should be at least some explanation in the text concerning DU dusts entering body cells when inhaled. This causes radioactive radiation to be created directly in body cells, obviously causing direct harm to cellular DNA, thus probably causing cancer and various birth defects. So far, there is no such aspect mentioned in the article... ?! 88.67.87.171 (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Density of depleted uranium
The article currently says:
- Depleted uranium is notable for the extremely high density of its metallic form: at 19.1 grams per cubic centimetre (0.69 lb/cu in), DU is 68.4% denser than lead.
This is misleading; depleted uranium has the same density as natural uranium. It's just that its lower radioactivity makes it useful in applications where the radioactivity of natural uranium would be a problem.
This section should be modified to make that clear. TypoBoy (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Technically, depleted uranium is marginally denser than natural uranium, since U-238 has a higher atomic mass than U-235. ;-) But the difference is less than 0.1%, so I would also support a rewording for clarity. One could also mention that DU is not the densest material - gold and most other precious metals are denser, osmium by almost 20%. Roentgenium111 (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I made this change. TypoBoy (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Calorimeters
I've read a significant amount about these calorimeters, the closest I have come to finding that radioactivity is a desirable property is a mention of using it to calibrate the calorimeter. I think we need something far more solid to show that it is a desirable feature, as I see no mention of it vs. Pb, the benefits I saw mentioned are pragmatic relating to the properties of the resulting instruments in detecting scintillations. Of course what I have read has only scratched the surface, so the text may well be correct. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 13:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC).
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