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| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050601054749/https://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/pdf/dumyths.pdf to http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/pdf/dumyths.pdf | |||
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| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928073005/http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted%20Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED%20URANIUM-2-%20INCIDENCE.htm to http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted%20Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED%20URANIUM-2-%20INCIDENCE.htm | |||
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| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050417062505/http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Depleted-Uranium.pdf to http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Depleted-Uranium.pdf | |||
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| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:07, 11 December 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == US confirms DU use in Syria == | |||
| Last month US CENTCOM confirmed that two incidents where it had previously been reported that DU was used in Syria in November 2015 were A10 strikes on Islamic State fuel convoys. Foreign Policy/Airwars investigation here: http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/14/the-united-states-used-depleted-uranium-in-syria/ News that the US had used DU in Syria first appeared on IRIN in October 2016, following an investigation by journalist Samuel Oakford and ICBUW, coverage here: https://www.irinnews.org/investigations/2016/10/06/exclusive-iraq-war-records-reignite-debate-over-us-use-depleted-uranium However at the time CENTCOM did not confirm the targets that it had been used against. The situation was of particular interest as fuel tankers are not armoured targets. In 2016 an analysis of A10 strikes in Iraq 2003 by PAX and ICBUW revealed that fewer than half of all targets struck were armoured vehicles, see: http://www.bandepleteduranium.org/en/targets-of-opportunity ] (]) 11:57, 1 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :{{reply|ICBUW}} the third source fails ] and doesn't mention Syria, but the other two seem adequate. ] coverage for Syria would be to add to the sentence in the history section: "The US and NATO militaries used DU penetrator rounds in the 1991 Gulf War, the Bosnia war, bombing of Serbia, the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and ] on ] in Syria." Sound good? ] (]) 17:02, 1 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{reply|VQuakr}} works for me, thanks ] (]) 17:21, 2 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Edit on the contamination of uranium with other isotopes == | |||
| Here are the edits I want to integrate in the page re. contamination of uranium with other isotopes : | |||
| Natural uranium contains about 0.72% U-235, while the DU used by the ] contains 0.3% U-235 or less, according to the US Mod, but this is debated<ref>{{cite news|last1=Koeppel|first1=Barbara|title=More Evidence Suggests Radiation Caused Illness in U.S. War Zones|url=https://washingtonspectator.org/radiation-war-zones-koeppel/|accessdate=21 March 2017|publisher=Washington Spectator}}</ref>. In urine tests of civilian populations in Afghanistan, for which the mean concentration of uranium was found to be considerably greater than what is regarded as a reference range, the U234/U238 ratios were consistant with natural uranium (not depleted)<ref>{{cite journal|last1=Durakovic|first1=Asaf|title=The quantitative analysis of uranium isotopes in the urine of the civilian population of eastern Afghanistan after Operation Enduring Freedom|journal=Military Medicine|date=2005|pmid=15916293|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15916293|accessdate=21 March 2017}}</ref> | |||
| Asaf Durakovic found several occurences of uranium 236 contamination in veterans<ref>{{cite news|last1=Simons|first1=Marlise|title=Doctor's Gulf War Studies Link Cancer to Depleted Uranium|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/world/doctor-s-gulf-war-studies-link-cancer-to-depleted-uranium.html|publisher=New York Times}}</ref>. | |||
| DU used in US munitions has 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium, according to the US army<ref name="USOSD"> U.S. Office of the Secretary of Defense</ref>. The radioactivity near tanks destroyed by these weapons, however, can reach at least up to 1000 times the average background radiation<ref>{{cite web|title=High levels of radioactive pollution seen in the south|url=http://www.irinnews.org/fr/node/193357|website=IRIN|accessdate=21 March 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title=Remains of toxic bullets litter Iraq|url=http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0515/p01s02-woiq.html|publisher=Christian Science Monitor}}</ref>. Trace ]s (another indicator of the use of reprocessed material) have been reported to be present in some US tank armor<ref name="USOSD"/> as well as in weapons<ref>{{cite news|title=Iraq, Depleted Uranium Contaminated with Deadly Plutonium|url=https://www.democracynow.org/2001/1/17/iraq_depleted_uranium_contaminated_with_deadly|publisher=Democracy Now}}</ref>. | |||
| One formulation has a composition of 99.25% by mass of depleted uranium and 0.75% by mass of ], but there is a debate regarding the isotopic composition or the uranium that is used because of the findings of non depleted uranium in battlefields<ref>{{cite news|last1=Koeppel|first1=Barbara|title=More Evidence Suggests Radiation Caused Illness in U.S. War Zones|url=https://washingtonspectator.org/radiation-war-zones-koeppel/|accessdate=21 March 2017|publisher=Washington Spectator}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|last1=Durakovic|first1=Asaf|title=The quantitative analysis of uranium isotopes in the urine of the civilian population of eastern Afghanistan after Operation Enduring Freedom|journal=Military Medicine|date=2005|pmid=15916293|url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15916293|accessdate=21 March 2017}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2001/unep81.doc.htm|title=UN Press Release UNEP/81: Uranium 236 found in depleted uranium penetrators|publisher=UN|pages=}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|last1=Simons|first1=Marlise|title=Doctor's Gulf War Studies Link Cancer to Depleted Uranium|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/29/world/doctor-s-gulf-war-studies-link-cancer-to-depleted-uranium.html|publisher=New York Times}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title=Iraq, Depleted Uranium Contaminated with Deadly Plutonium|url=https://www.democracynow.org/2001/1/17/iraq_depleted_uranium_contaminated_with_deadly|publisher=Democracy Now}}</ref> | |||
| Please tell me where does that violate ANY Misplaced Pages policy. I have been undoed by ]. Thanks. ] (]) 22:09, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist talk}} | |||
| == Edit on shaped charge warheads and uranium == | |||
| Here are the changes I want to bring on the "Ammunition" section re. shaped charges and uranium : | |||
| It is known since the years 70s that uranium can be used as a liner in shaped charge warheads<ref>{{cite book|title=Trends in the use of depleted uranium|date=1971|publisher=National Academy of Science|pages=38|url=https://books.google.fr/books?id=qJArAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=shaped+charge+liner+uranium&source=bl&ots=y1QG-EIyHf&sig=GE4XeIc25mhKH6mv2bR-6ycn6S8&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilnvnGvejSAhXLhRoKHeR2CSEQ6AEIczAQ#v=onepage&q=shaped%20charge%20liner%20uranium&f=false}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal|title=Building characteristics into a shaped charge to achieve unique performance requirements|journal=International Journal of Impact Engineering|date=1995|volume=17|issue=1-3|pages=121-130|url=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0734743X9599841E|accessdate=21 March 2017}}</ref>. Many shaped charge warheads patents include uranium as a liner. The "K-charge" patent EP 1164348 A2 notes that "other metals that have been disclosed as useful for shaped charge liners include depleted uranium and their alloys<ref>{{cite web|title=K charge patent|url=https://www.google.com/patents/EP1164348A2?cl=en&hl=fr|website=Google patents}}</ref>". Another seems to acknowledge that it is better, for incendiary (reactive) purposes, to use non-depleted uranium as it differenciates "depleted uranium" used for kinetic purposes and "uranium" used for incendiary purposes. | |||
| Please tell me where does that violate any Misplaced Pages policy. Thanks. ] (]) 22:09, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == Yacht keels == | |||
| :Claiming that a specific warhead must contain uranium because a patent application says uranium ''could'' be used violates common sense, ], and ]. Claiming natural uranium is more flammable/pyrophoric than DU based on a patent application indicates a pretty remarkable lack of knowledge of chemistry, and of course also violates the same content policies. ] (]) 22:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| At least one of the French ]s that were built as ] challengers used a DU keel, possibly ]. I'm looking for references, any help appreciated. ] (]) 17:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::It does not says that uranium IS used in liners, it only says it COULD. It was thoroughly studied ( see for instance here http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2007/ARL-SR-150.pdf on page 86). Jane's also reported once that uranium is used in "some guided weapons" which could include shaped charge warheads. https://web.archive.org/web/20011108102307/http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw010108_1_n.shtml | |||
| ::Regarding the effects of radioactivity on inflammability (the latent heat of the radioactivity acting as the activation energy), two chemists (one in a metallurgy lab, and one "agrégé" (French high exam for professors)) have told me that I am right, so I thought that simply making mention of the patent without explaining could be meaningful, but I acknowledge this contradicts WP:SYNTH.] (]) 22:45, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| From memory it was one of the yachts financed by ], which means in 1970, 1974, 1977 or 1980, so it wasn't France 3 which was a 1983 effort. ] (]) 17:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC) | |||
| ::: "which could" | |||
| :I'm now less confident that it wasn't ]. There was involvement by a ] or ] involved in that one too. ] (]) 20:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| ::: ] (]) 23:23, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :There was a Sydney headline "A Baron of beef" at the time but I can't find it in Trove. ] (]) 21:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC) | |||
| == Radiological weapon? == | |||
| :::: If you read the uranium liner shaped charge patent for drilling wells https://www.google.ch/patents/US4441428, you'll see that "tests show that the penetration of such a Uranium jet is about 87 centimeters, a factor of 3.5 greater than expected and a factor of 5 times that measured for the copper jet and for an iron jet 5.4 times greater." In this regard claims that the main metal used in shaped charges is copper is highly dubious. ] (]) 20:43, 24 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Can be the DU ammo be categorized as a radiological weapon? Though not used as an area-denial material, the DU has the secondary effect of contaminating the targets it hit (tanks, armoured vehicles, bunkers, etc.). The US vehicles struck by friendly DU rounds in both the Gulf War and the Invasion of Iraq had to be "washed" as they represented some radiological hazard.----] (]) 00:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| {{reflist talk}} | |||
| :That doesn't make it a radiological weapon, which are nuclear weapons or ] used for area denial, . ] (]) 17:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC) | |||
| :: Well, as DU creates vast contamination areas on battlefields, there is no way to deny that this aspect actually does exist. However, this is not an effect intended by the military. At least they claim not to intend such effects. Nevertheless it might be seen as a criminal act to cause such contamination as an unintended, but predictable and well known effect of DU use. So this is a rather tricky issue. ] (]) 19:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == incorporated DU will directly harm body cell DNA == | |||
| == Edit on the biological effects of uranium weapons == | |||
| There should be at least some explanation in the text concerning DU dusts entering body cells when inhaled. This causes radioactive radiation to be created directly in body cells, obviously causing direct harm to cellular DNA, thus probably causing cancer and various birth defects. So far, there is no such aspect mentioned in the article... ?! ] (]) 19:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC) | |||
| Since the Ammunition section of the article mentions the dangerousness of alternatives to uranium, I found it meaningful to integrate as well information on the dangerousness of uranium itself. Here is what I propose to add : | |||
| == Density of depleted uranium == | |||
| The carcinogenic effect of uranium weapons comes from the alpha particles that induce tumors when inhalated or ingested in the body, because of the high ] of alpha particles (up to 20 times the RBE of gamma rays : for the same amount of energy, alpha particles will create up to 20 times more damage than gamma rays) - a 2,5 microns pellet in the body, with a RBE of 10, will deliver 1,7 Sievert per year to the body<ref>{{cite web|last1=Facts and Figures|url=http://www.umri.link/research/scientific-facts-figures/|website=Uranium Medical Research Institute|accessdate=21 March 2017}}</ref>, that is a level of severe radiation poisoning, sometimes fatal. | |||
| The article currently says: | |||
| ] | |||
| :Depleted uranium is notable for the extremely high density of its metallic form: at 19.1 grams per cubic centimetre (0.69 lb/cu in), DU is 68.4% denser than lead. | |||
| This is misleading; depleted uranium has the same density as natural ]. It's just that its lower radioactivity makes it useful in applications where the radioactivity of natural uranium would be a problem. | |||
| WHO statistics available for 2004 (downloadable ) show that Iraq has the highest levels of leukemias and lymphomas in the world. Afghanistan is almost second. Both countries were heavily bombed before (Iraq was bombed in 1991 and 2003-2004, Afghanistan in 2001-2002). Leukemias and lymphomas are both blood cancers which are suspected to be related with uranium contamination. Uranium is sprayed as a fine powder by these weapons at impact or explosion. The clouds of oxidised dust are able to travel and represent a danger when ingested or inhalated. Uranium is able to travel in the body - for instance from the nose to the brain of the rat, in a . | |||
| This section should be modified to make that clear. ] (]) 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ** | |||
| The chart comes from XKCD but this XKCD carefully provided all of its sources on the chart ! | |||
| :Technically, depleted uranium is marginally denser than natural uranium, since U-238 has a higher atomic mass than U-235. ;-) But the difference is less than 0.1%, so I would also support a rewording for clarity. One could also mention that DU is not the densest material - gold and most other precious metals are denser, osmium by almost 20%. ] (]) 13:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC) | |||
| So please tell me again where do I violate any Misplaced Pages policy. ] (]) 22:16, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I made this change. ] (]) 00:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
| :The UMRI source is incorrect by about 9 orders of magnitude, unsurprising since it fails ]. ] is a great webcomic, but is unusuable as a source for anything except itself. Claiming a causal relationship between DU weapons use and cancer mortality rates based on generic WHO disease rates violates ]. ] (]) 22:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have another source of calculation which provides very similar results (60 milliSieverts per year for a 1 micron particle, 7,5 Sieverts per year for a 5 microns particle : http://bienprofond.free.fr/hiroshi/2005/IrradiationUA.htm (in French)). These calculations (in the article in French) were made by Maurice Eugène André, who was NBCR protection instructing officer for NATO. The XKCD chart, as I said, mentions its sources but if you want here is a page by the insurer Allianz which says exactly the same https://www.allianz.com/en/about_us/open-knowledge/topics/environment/articles/110407-radiation-how-much-is-harmful.html/#!m07960b8c-086f-4934-829d-1ed6bff167ab | |||
| ::To me the causal relationship between use of uranium weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan and the high rate of leukemias / lymphomas is simply common sense. It confirms everything that has been noted - the actual article says "Epidemiological studies and toxicological tests on laboratory animals point to it as being immunotoxic, teratogenic, neurotoxic, with carcinogenic and leukemogenic potential. A 2005 report by epidemiologists concluded: "the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU."" ] (]) 22:57, 21 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ah, at least that site shows their work. When a dose/fatality chart talks about exposure, they are talking about whole body instantaneous dose not exposure of a 50 μm sphere around a particle over the course of a year. The French-language source still fails ], anyways. ] (]) 03:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Yet 7,5 Sieverts over the course of a year for a 5 microns particle is well above all accepted yearly levels of exposure, even for nuclear industry workers. ] (]) 20:45, 24 March 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ==Calorimeters== | |||
| {{reflist talk}} | |||
| I've read a significant amount about these calorimeters, the closest I have come to finding that radioactivity is a desirable property is a mention of using it to calibrate the calorimeter. I think we need something far more solid to show that it is a desirable feature, as I see no mention of it vs. Pb, the benefits I saw mentioned are pragmatic relating to the properties of the resulting instruments in detecting scintillations. Of course what I have read has only scratched the surface, so the text may well be correct. All the best: ''] ]''<small> 13:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC).</small><br /> | |||
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Yacht keels
At least one of the French 12 metre yachts that were built as America's Cup challengers used a DU keel, possibly France 3. I'm looking for references, any help appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 17:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
From memory it was one of the yachts financed by Marcel Bich, which means in 1970, 1974, 1977 or 1980, so it wasn't France 3 which was a 1983 effort. Andrewa (talk) 17:35, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'm now less confident that it wasn't France 3. There was involvement by a Baron Bic or Baron Bich involved in that one too. Andrewa (talk) 20:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- There was a Sydney headline "A Baron of beef" at the time but I can't find it in Trove. Andrewa (talk) 21:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Radiological weapon?
Can be the DU ammo be categorized as a radiological weapon? Though not used as an area-denial material, the DU has the secondary effect of contaminating the targets it hit (tanks, armoured vehicles, bunkers, etc.). The US vehicles struck by friendly DU rounds in both the Gulf War and the Invasion of Iraq had to be "washed" as they represented some radiological hazard.----Darius (talk) 00:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- That doesn't make it a radiological weapon, which are nuclear weapons or dirty bombs used for area denial, . VQuakr (talk) 17:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, as DU creates vast contamination areas on battlefields, there is no way to deny that this aspect actually does exist. However, this is not an effect intended by the military. At least they claim not to intend such effects. Nevertheless it might be seen as a criminal act to cause such contamination as an unintended, but predictable and well known effect of DU use. So this is a rather tricky issue. 88.67.87.171 (talk) 19:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
incorporated DU will directly harm body cell DNA
There should be at least some explanation in the text concerning DU dusts entering body cells when inhaled. This causes radioactive radiation to be created directly in body cells, obviously causing direct harm to cellular DNA, thus probably causing cancer and various birth defects. So far, there is no such aspect mentioned in the article... ?! 88.67.87.171 (talk) 19:53, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Density of depleted uranium
The article currently says:
- Depleted uranium is notable for the extremely high density of its metallic form: at 19.1 grams per cubic centimetre (0.69 lb/cu in), DU is 68.4% denser than lead.
This is misleading; depleted uranium has the same density as natural uranium. It's just that its lower radioactivity makes it useful in applications where the radioactivity of natural uranium would be a problem.
This section should be modified to make that clear. TypoBoy (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Technically, depleted uranium is marginally denser than natural uranium, since U-238 has a higher atomic mass than U-235. ;-) But the difference is less than 0.1%, so I would also support a rewording for clarity. One could also mention that DU is not the densest material - gold and most other precious metals are denser, osmium by almost 20%. Roentgenium111 (talk) 13:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I made this change. TypoBoy (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
Calorimeters
I've read a significant amount about these calorimeters, the closest I have come to finding that radioactivity is a desirable property is a mention of using it to calibrate the calorimeter. I think we need something far more solid to show that it is a desirable feature, as I see no mention of it vs. Pb, the benefits I saw mentioned are pragmatic relating to the properties of the resulting instruments in detecting scintillations. Of course what I have read has only scratched the surface, so the text may well be correct. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 13:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC).
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