| Revision as of 09:52, 22 July 2024 editManyareasexpert (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers3,235 edits →RfC on Category:Massacres committed by Ukraine: new topicTag: CD← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 20:47, 6 December 2024 edit undo95.109.249.40 (talk) →Why not just call the article "Volhynian massacre": ReplyTag: Reply |
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== Inconsistent Cassaulty numbers in the same paragraph == |
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The second paragraph in the introduction includes these two contradictory sentences back to back. Please fix this. I would but the article is locked. Thanks |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2023 == |
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"The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths. Estimates of the death toll range between 60,000 to 120,000. " |
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] (]) 08:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC) |
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{{edit extended-protected|Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia|answered=y}} |
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I have found two spelling errors in the section about the Ukrainian view surrounding the classification as a genocide. |
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== Diversions and pacifications == |
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1. Change: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced '''polonizatioin''' in pre-war Poland." |
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To: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced '''polonization''' in pre-war Poland." |
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In the section "Second World War", there is some very obfuscatory language used. "There were acts of diversion" is an evasive way of referring to deadly attacks. "The Polish side responded with pacifications, in which probably several hundred people were killed": This is a misuse of the word "pacification". |
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These terms are euphemisms for illegal killings, and I propose to delete the subsection "Ukrainian diversion in September 1939". Perhaps someone familiar with the subject-matter could rewrite the subsection using more direct language. ] (]) 09:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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2. Change: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about '''"Volhynia Slaugher"''' and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile." |
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To: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about '''"Volhynia Slaughter"''' and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile." |
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== Wrong cat == |
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{{done}}<!-- Template:EEp --> ] (]) 17:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
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Greetings @] , we can't justify having wrong categories with some other wrongs elsewhere (or here) . |
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The bold text is just there to make the error/correction stand out and should not be added to the Wiki-page ] (]) 14:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== "]" listed at ] == |
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] |
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The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span> has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 27#Volyn Crime}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- from Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 01:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC) |
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A better thing to spend our time on is to ask why is there no ] article. Is it only limited to ]? ] (]) 12:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Unsourced changes to fatality count == |
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:@] Adding a parent category is correct if there is no relevant subcategory. That said, we can probably replace it by ]. Although massacres are not the same concept as war crimes, so I don't really see a problem with this. This was a massacre, and at some level of abstraction, it was committed by Ukraine, just like other ] were committed by other countries (now, I am not saying some entries there are wrong - I've just corrected a category for one execution, for example, which was not a "massacre"). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 06:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Reaper1945}} Please provide a substantive reason for your reversion. There's a range with a citation. It's not in the spirit of collaborative editing to just change a number without any reason, without a source, and without a discussion. |
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== RfC on Category:Massacres committed by Ukraine == |
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Also, {{ping|Bobfrombrockley}} could you please include a quote regarding the fatality estimates from Kulińska using ]? |
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<!-- ] 10:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1724666467}} |
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] (]) 21:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC) |
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This cagegorization - characterizing the event as "Massacres committed by Ukraine" - is challenged. Nowhere in the article it says it "was committed by Ukraine", and no sources are saying so. I disagree with the thesis above ] that ''at some level of abstraction, it was committed by Ukraine'' but I'm the only one opposing. ] (]) 09:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC) |
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== Changes in the article Lead and Section title == |
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:|I’m not sure why that request is addressed to me {{u|Daniel Quinlan}}. Also {{u|Reaper1945}}’s edit seems to me correct as it gives the number range in the fully referenced body, which the info box should summarise, rather than arbitrarily picking one source. ] (]) 04:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::I pinged you because of . I don't have access to that source, but that's the one you left next to the estimate you used. And if there are other sources being used for the Infobox fatality numbers then they should also be cited there. ] (]) 04:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::@], @]; please don't confuse genocide in Volhynia, which indeed consumed c. 50-60k people, with the entire OUN-UPA "anti-Polish action" which resulted in the death of c. 100k people. It's well explained in the lead and the body ] (]) 05:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I don't have access to that source, which relates solely to Czech deaths and was already there when I edited. My edit was to remove Motyka and his 100,000 in favour of the range of numbers which are given, with sources, in our relevant section, as there is no reason to pick Motyka over the other sources and the infobox should reflect the body. |
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:::The relevant section could do with some disentangling, as different figures reflect different groups of casualties, but range from 50-100,000. The page ] is much clearer and could be drawn on for clarification. ] (]) 10:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::Motyka, unlike most other historians mentioned on that page, focused his academic work on the Polish-Lithuanian conflict and UPA massacres, reaserching this subject for decades. His calculations are based on extensive read of sources and are by far the most recent ones. ] (]) 12:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::So you're saying we should use Motyka in the infobox but not ] and ], for example, who have also been researching this subject for decades? And also Motyka gives slightly different figures in different publications - which source do you want to be the single one cited by the infobox? ] (]) 14:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 ''Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła'' is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. ] (]) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. ] (]) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::Sure; in my translation: |
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::::::::''It is not easy to give the number of people who were victims of all these events. This is not the place to discuss the rich literature on the subject and the interesting discussion accompanying the disputes on the subject. Let us point out that the largest number of Poles suffered death in Volhynia. According to the findings of Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko, in 1943 at least at least 33,000 Poles, of whom about 19,000 are known by name. The total number of those killed at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists there may be in the range of 40 to as many as 60 thousand people. In Eastern Galicia, estimates of of 30-40 thousand Polish victims, while in the lands of present-day Poland 6-8 thousand Poles perished.'' |
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::::::::''In light of the numbers cited, it seems that Polish losses as a result of the UPA's actions probably amounted to about 100 thousand dead (with which is more likely to be slightly less, rather than more than 100 thousand). Any higher numbers quoted - 150 or even 200 thousand victims - are not are confirmed by any serious scientific studies, and their frequent appearance in the media can probably only be explained by a the desire to create a sensation.'' |
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::::::::''Let us note that the vast majority of Polish victims fell before the conclusion of the AK-WiN and UPA agreements in the spring of 1945 (from the meeting in the vicinity of Ruda Różaniecka until the end of 1947 died at the hands of the Ukrainian underground in Poland about 3,000 people, in large part soldiers of the Polish Army, WOP and KBW). This shows how important for the Polish historical memory is the first stage of the conflict. |
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::::::::''Much controversy surrounds the assessment of Ukrainian losses. Ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian, I tried to estimate them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, I concluded that 15,000-20,000 Ukrainians were killed as a result of Polish actions. Today, in light of the latest data, I would be inclined to lower the number of Ukrainian victims somewhat. Probably 2,000 to 3,000 Ukrainians were killed at the Polish hand in Volhynia (not counting those killed by auxiliary police). In Eastern Galicia, 1-2 thousand Ukrainians were killed. The situation was completely different in the lands of present-day Poland. More Ukrainians than Poles were killed there in 1943-1947, probably 8-10 thousand (3-4 thousand by the summer of 1944 and 5-6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). The total would give a figure of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Again, giving higher numbers is not supported by any scientific research. Let's emphasize it clearly - the numbers of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians found in Ukrainian textbooks are simply taken "from the ceiling."'' ] (]) 16:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::That's really helpful. Huge thanks. ] (]) 17:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC) |
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Since this article is only editable by established editors, could I ask for the incorporation of the following changes to the text that are more accurate: |
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== Wolyn Massacre & it's Culprits! == |
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*Change "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths." to "The UPA's actions resulted in the death of around 100,000 Poles." |
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''']''' (Ukrainian: '''Рома́н-Тарас Йо́сипович Шухе́вич'''), also known by his pseudonym '''Taras Chuprynka''' (] ] – ] ]), was a ] nationalist, one of the commanders of ], a '']'' of the German ] auxiliary police battalion, a military leader of the ] (UPA), and one of the organizers (main organizer was Dmytro Klyachkivsky who was assassinated. So was Roman Shukhevych) of the ] of approximately 100,000 ]. ] (]) 18:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*Remove: "The ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." and from section title remove"...and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising". |
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== Diversions and pacifications == |
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The first statement is somewhat problematic because though the Germans might have instigated ethnic hatred on a lower level there is no evidence that they directly worked with UPA to organize the massacres, so this statement should not be included in the lead as it suggest the Germans were the co-organizers. Also, the second statement is problematic because UPA only operated in the Kresy region (now Western Ukraine) so this was not a Greater Ukrainian uprising and also its scope was very limited as UPA spent most of its time on attacking Poles and Soviet partisans. So, this is a very questionable claim especially to be used in a section title. ] (]) 17:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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In the section "Second World War", there is some very obfuscatory language used. "There were acts of diversion" is an evasive way of referring to deadly attacks. "The Polish side responded with pacifications, in which probably several hundred people were killed": This is a misuse of the word "pacification". |
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::Can someone provide reliable sources on the numbers of Poles killed during ] by Ukrainians in ] and ]? |
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::Thanks. |
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::] (]) 22:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::*], the problem with (the second half of) this Section title "and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising" is that there is no source which talks about an "Ukrainian anti-German uprising" instead you have texts related to various skirmishes between UPA and German military units, and that UPA's relationship with the German occupiers varied in different times, but no greater Ukrainian anti-German uprising. It's just not there (like with the ]). Also, UPA was just as much created in order to fight against Poles and the Soviets, however this section titles makes it sound like the primary reason for UPA's creation was anti-German insurgency. |
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These terms are euphemisms for illegal killings, and I propose to delete the subsection "Ukrainian diversion in September 1939". Perhaps someone familiar with the subject-matter could rewrite the subsection using more direct language. ] (]) 09:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Also, there is an on-line article, which describes this type of a situation, where statements are inserted into Misplaced Pages that have no academic consensus or a source, to back up their validity: https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/ |
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== Wrong cat == |
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:::Example from the article of this type claims in Misplaced Pages: |
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Greetings @] , we can't justify having wrong categories with some other wrongs elsewhere (or here) . |
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:::"In early November 2015, you will find K.e.coffman in “20 July plot,” an article about the failed plan by German officers to assassinate Hitler. A sentence has jumped out at her. It says that some of the conspirators came to see the plot as “a grand, if futile gesture” that would save “the honour of themselves, their families, the army and Germany.” The claim isn’t supported by any sources. It’s conjecture, hearsay. And to her it seems strangely flattering." |
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A better thing to spend our time on is to ask why is there no ] article. Is it only limited to ]? ] (]) 12:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Also, the second statement is problematic and should not be in the Lead "the ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." This statement fails an accuracy check, based on what the sources actually say and could be considered as an overstatement. Also, other reliable sources like IPN say this "Thus, the Poles did not seek to create conflict situations." https://volhyniamassacre.eu/zw2/history/178,The-Genocide-on-Poles-Conducted-by-the-OUN-B-and-UPA.html this is why the statement should not be in the lead, as it's out of place, oversimplified, and its conclusion is disputed in academic discourse. |
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:@] Adding a parent category is correct if there is no relevant subcategory. That said, we can probably replace it by ]. Although massacres are not the same concept as war crimes, so I don't really see a problem with this. This was a massacre, and at some level of abstraction, it was committed by Ukraine, just like other ] were committed by other countries (now, I am not saying some entries there are wrong - I've just corrected a category for one execution, for example, which was not a "massacre"). <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</sub> 06:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Lastly, regarding this statement "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths" the number whatever it is, should clearly say "Poles", not "people" as it creates confusion and the reader is left wondering if this is everyone, including Armenians, Jews, Russians, Czechs, Georgians or anti-UPA Ukrainians. Also, the sources already cited say this (source no. 10): "...a hundred thousand Poles perished." This statement needs to clearly say "Poles". --] (]) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== RfC on Category:Massacres committed by Ukraine == |
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:::::I've entered, into the article, the corrections you suggested. |
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:::::If I've overlooked anything or made an error, please let me know. |
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:::::Thanks for your contributions to improving the article. |
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:::::Have you considered choosing, for use on Misplaced Pages, a pseudonym, which would facilitate communication with other editors? |
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:::::Best, |
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:::::] (]) 08:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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], I just came across this statement that should also be adjusted "Local UPA commanders in Volhynia, joining the armed uprising against the Germans, began attacking the Polish population, committing massacres in numerous villages." The part "joining the armed uprising against the Germans" should be removed, it just sounds confusing and makes it sound as if the Poles were part of the German occupation. Poor wording in this case, confusing two separate issues. --] (]) 09:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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::Yes, I had noticed that clause but provisionally held off from deleting it. I've now deleted it. Thanks! |
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::] (]) 20:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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:Just to add, UPA fighting with the Germans, and anti-Polish killings, were two separate things however that statement confuses the two. --] (]) 09:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC) |
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== Why not just call the article "Volhynian massacre" == |
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{{rfc|hist|pol}} |
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This cagegorization - characterizing the event as "Massacres committed by Ukraine" - is challenged. Nowhere in the article it says it "was committed by Ukraine", and no sources are saying so. I disagree with the thesis above ] that ''at some level of abstraction, it was committed by Ukraine'' but I'm the only one opposing. ] (]) 09:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC) |
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Hi, I would like to propose to rename the article to "Volhynian massacre", since that's what event is known as in Polish and Ukrainian (Rzeź wołyńska; Волинська трагедія). The historical event is commonly known by this name, and refered as such by historians.] (]) 22:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:The article also covers related massacres in eastern Galicia. |
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:Also, have there been no other massacres in Volhynia, other than of Poles during World War II? |
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:] (]) 23:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC) |
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::@] It's still the WP: Common Name. And yeah, the topic might also include regions outside Volhynia, but that's how the event is known by historians and common people, since Volhynia was the most notable and central location. Common names aren't always the most accurate. Additionally, even if there are others (idk of top of my head), Volhynian massacre in WW2 is still the most known, and as such, would be a dominating name for this specific event, with other potencial events in Volhynian getting a disambiguation name. ] (]) 20:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks. |
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:::The Polish Misplaced Pages does title its article "'']''". |
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:::] (]) 23:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:::: The Rzeż Wołyńska article talks about events in Volhynia and does not include Eastern Galicia in its scope. ] (]) 18:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Ukrainian "Volhynian tragedy" (Волинська трагедія) and Polish "Volhynian slaughter" (Rzeź wołyńska) - are not the same names. Your edit summary stated: "The event in both Polish and Ukrainian just known as "Volhynian massacre"" - that doesn't seem to be the case. |
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:The previous version was a longstanding name of the article that was changed without proper discussion and the time needed for other editors to get involved. Because it's a controversial topic, there should be voting on whether to move the page or not. ] (]) 17:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC) |
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:Because this article is not for truth and memory. It is Polish ultranationalist propaganda brochure that absolutely ignore Ukrainian historians, Ukrainian views, and any views critical to Polish new trend on whitewashing of Polish war criminals. And attack is a better way to defend, so Poland attack Ukraine to distract attention from Polish war crimes in interwar period, against Belarusians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Slovaks, Czechs,Jews, Germans and others. For Misplaced Pages, if a lot of Polish insane nationalist come to talk page - then they right. ] (]) 20:47, 6 December 2024 (UTC) |
The second paragraph in the introduction includes these two contradictory sentences back to back. Please fix this. I would but the article is locked. Thanks
"The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths. Estimates of the death toll range between 60,000 to 120,000. "
104.246.224.162 (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
In the section "Second World War", there is some very obfuscatory language used. "There were acts of diversion" is an evasive way of referring to deadly attacks. "The Polish side responded with pacifications, in which probably several hundred people were killed": This is a misuse of the word "pacification".
These terms are euphemisms for illegal killings, and I propose to delete the subsection "Ukrainian diversion in September 1939". Perhaps someone familiar with the subject-matter could rewrite the subsection using more direct language. MrDemeanour (talk) 09:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Since this article is only editable by established editors, could I ask for the incorporation of the following changes to the text that are more accurate:
The first statement is somewhat problematic because though the Germans might have instigated ethnic hatred on a lower level there is no evidence that they directly worked with UPA to organize the massacres, so this statement should not be included in the lead as it suggest the Germans were the co-organizers. Also, the second statement is problematic because UPA only operated in the Kresy region (now Western Ukraine) so this was not a Greater Ukrainian uprising and also its scope was very limited as UPA spent most of its time on attacking Poles and Soviet partisans. So, this is a very questionable claim especially to be used in a section title. 94.172.109.57 (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to propose to rename the article to "Volhynian massacre", since that's what event is known as in Polish and Ukrainian (Rzeź wołyńska; Волинська трагедія). The historical event is commonly known by this name, and refered as such by historians.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 22:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
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